[patrioticinnovations]

Hmmm… p22 with 2 choices of belts, one narrower but the same length as a standard p85 belt that we can all agree performs bad. Or the 23 Boost belt that is the same width as a standard p85 belt but is longer.
Does the longer 23 Boost belt with a p22 have the same top speed potential as a p85 with the standard belt? How can it if the engine is placed in the correct location?

Fact is given the belt choices we have with both clutches, (this includes the wider/softer CC p85 belt) the p85 will always have an advantage in either starting ratio and or top speed.
We should discuss why the p22 requires so much weight to perform the same job as a p85.

The weights used in a stock P-22 and the geometry of roller location vs weight pivot points vs the P-85 are different so I've been told. It isn't just a simple weight to weight comparison.

 

[800Modder]

The weights used in a stock P-22 and the geometry of roller location vs weight pivot points vs the P-85 are different so I've been told. It isn't just a simple weight to weight comparison.

I think that’s is Battlestorm s point, those design changes in the P-22 requires more weight to achieve what the most efficient primary (p-85) used to do. That extra weight is stress and if combined with imbalances and or spider design, bolt materials have probably lead to some early failures. Then they added a scatter shield and for most, the good feeling is gone. The P-22 is not going away and the P-85 probably is. This is no different than changing computer operating systems, the last one before the latest change is always better than the new one, until you figure out how to use the new one.

 

[northstarrick]

Amazing that the "savvy tuners" have opposing info. The bottom line is that the P-85 is going away and the P-22 is replacing it because it has better advantages. The factory will eventually make the improvements needed in the P-22 to ensure it is safe. They don't want lawsuits and high warranty costs.

really? how how have they done with the forward twist? they haven't fixed that in what 7 years now.

 

[patrioticinnovations]

really? how how have they done with the forward twist? they haven't fixed that in what 7 years now.

The excessive forward twist apparently isn't seen by them as a big negative. Mainly because the competition is at least as bad. And don't even float their 2ndy. I bet I could advertise a service fixing only that issue and make a fortune.

But some of us know how stupid it is. Belt wear savings alone, as well as less jackshaft bearing wear would easily pay for it. Not to mention better mileage and power to the track. TSR is likely already doing it. I do it much cheaper though. The customer can easily do it themselves. But, if they won't, then will have to complain enough to make them fix it.

 

[thunder with doo]

Phil’s ready

I'd be your huckleberry. lol

 

[BattleStorm]

Polaris makes money off the forward twist from belt sales. They helped create belts that don’t explode but only wear out quickly with how the engines come aligned from production.

 

[Oldman70]

You can solve all this with a magnetic cvt no belt need no secondary clutch needed.

 

[stroker2]

The excessive forward twist apparently isn't seen by them as a big negative. Mainly because the competition is at least as bad. And don't even float their 2ndy. I bet I could advertise a service fixing only that issue and make a fortune.

But some of us know how stupid it is. Belt wear savings alone, as well as less jackshaft bearing wear would easily pay for it. Not to mention better mileage and power to the track. TSR is likely already doing it. I do it much cheaper though. The customer can easily do it themselves. But, if they won't, then will have to complain enough to make them fix it.

You advertise in almost every post you make

 

[patrioticinnovations]

You advertise in almost every post you make

I explain what I know by providing the same details I expect from others. I say certain supporting things so I help folks to understand. How do you do it? Just state your opinion with no logical reason why? This also helps prevent misinformation by novices. I hope this statement doesn't apply to you. I'm offering free information unlike many on here who make a living generating work for themselves. Some folks appreciate it, others don't. Does being upfront with valuable free information offend you?

 

[Sre1000]

Amazing that the "savvy tuners" have opposing info. The bottom line is that the P-85 is going away and the P-22 is replacing it because it has better advantages. The factory will eventually make the improvements needed in the P-22 to ensure it is safe. They don't want lawsuits and high warranty costs.

What happened that it's a amazing clutch with no issues? And it's superior with its easy ability to make changes? It's the best thing ever with no belt deflection needed? It's been better but still a ticking time bomb

I've been busting your balls but I do respect you. You're pretty sharp but need to understand that are a few people around here that are too . I test a ton. Put alot of miles on. Of all people you should understand field testing is beyond solid. I won't put a P22 on my sled. I still flat out tell you the P85 grabs the belt way harder. I might not be a "savvy" tuner but I'll still show you different in the field.

 

[Oldman70]

my kid and his buddy have the same sleds same tunes everything but the clutching. One has the p85 with the polaris secondary the other has the p22 with a stm secondary. who ever hits the gas first wins the race.

 

[patrioticinnovations]

What happened that it's a amazing clutch with no issues? And it's superior with its easy ability to make changes? It's the best thing ever with no belt deflection needed? It's been better but still a ticking time bomb

I've been busting your balls but I do respect you. You're pretty sharp but need to understand that are a few people around here that are too . I test a ton. Put alot of miles on. Of all people you should understand field testing is beyond solid. I won't put a P22 on my sled. I still flat out tell you the P85 grabs the belt way harder. I might not be a "savvy" tuner but I'll still show you different in the field.

Thanks. I also respect capability. And know how important field testing is.
I own both clutches. I see no evidence of the P-85 being better. But, I only have 700 miles on my Boost with the P-22. I'm very impressed. I study clutching very carefully. I've used Hulings 4 arm clutches, Quigely's 6 arm clutches, Super Torquer's various clutches and 2ndy, and a few others. I know Mark Byers, Randy Nouis, Mike Gilmore, Larry Rugland, Olaf Aaen, Bob Quigely, Big Jim, ARSHAG of LAKO Perf, and many others. There are many very capable members of that and other clubs. I've learned a lot from them. I've done a lot of modifications to clutches and 2ndys. I was a long time member of the FASTRAC snowmobile club. I also know that the primary clutch belt grip is mostly a function of how much belt "tension" is created by the 2ndy. And that belt tension greatly affects CVT efficiency. I have no problem with performance challenges. It helps the learning process. I also sponsor and support a few racing Teams.
Maybe it will turn out that the P-22 doesn't work out, as many designs haven't for various reasons. But, eventually, we'll find out. Have a great summer!

 

[Sre1000]

Winter is coming fellas. Let the testing begin. Who has a Boost that wants to play? Lol

 

[XCR1250]

Aaen's dead.

 

[Lid2]

The excessive forward twist apparently isn't seen by them as a big negative. Mainly because the competition is at least as bad. And don't even float their 2ndy. I bet I could advertise a service fixing only that issue and make a fortune.

But some of us know how stupid it is. Belt wear savings alone, as well as less jackshaft bearing wear would easily pay for it. Not to mention better mileage and power to the track. TSR is likely already doing it. I do it much cheaper though. The customer can easily do it themselves. But, if they won't, then will have to complain enough to make them fix it.

Phil you guys pretty much have me talked into doing this adjustment using the trs mounts. I wasn’t concerned at first but for a few bucks and some time I guess I’ll address it. But I have one question that I’m sure isn’t totally cut and dry but maybe you can provide a lil insight. Question is - do you think that lining up the engine and leaving 20thous or so of lead in will account for enough engine movement when a boost is turned up wayyyy beyond 200dyno hp. And loading the clutches / grabbing the belt harder and having good traction ? Or should I leave a lil extra say 30thous. ? And only aligned to remove any beyond that. Or should I still get it closer as most of the time it will see trail riding on a pump gas tune so 210 or less

 

[jd8300]

I am taking the recommendation found on post #30 in this conversation. Looking forward to this winter.

 

[patrioticinnovations]

Phil you guys pretty much have me talked into doing this adjustment using the trs mounts. I wasn’t concerned at first but for a few bucks and some time I guess I’ll address it. But I have one question that I’m sure isn’t totally cut and dry but maybe you can provide a lil insight. Question is - do you think that lining up the engine and leaving 20thous or so of lead in will account for enough engine movement when a boost is turned up wayyyy beyond 200dyno hp. And loading the clutches / grabbing the belt harder and having good traction ? Or should I leave a lil extra say 30thous. ? And only aligned to remove any beyond that. Or should I still get it closer as most of the time it will see trail riding on a pump gas tune so 210 or less

Well Lid, I maintain that the engine mounts used by Polaris on their 850 sleds does not allow enough rearward twist under load that would justify so much forward twist. This assessment was also reached by TRS out West when they developed their adjustable engine mounts. If you watch one of their videos they posted online, they never say to add more forward twist than around .020".
I agree. And the famous Aaen states as much in his clutching manual. Yes, as one of the resident experts just stated, Aaen is dead. But he was a great engineer when he was alive. I also do not use those expensive adjustable mounts. Instead, I just "untwist" the engine by slotting the left rear engine mount bracket about .060 and adding a .060 washer between the left front mount and the frame. The exact amount depends on how far the engine is twisted too much. This is much cheaper and just as effective. I've done it to many 850 Polaris engines. NA and Boost. The 9r is likely just as bad.

 

[Doug S]

See there was issues/changes to the mounting bolt on the P22. Now there is no less then 4 aftermarket companies making a product to lock the spider on simular to the jam nut on the P85. I'd be running something to lock the spider in place on the P22.

 

[Lid2]

Well Lid, I maintain that the engine mounts used by Polaris on their 850 sleds does not allow enough reward twist under load that would justify so much forward twist. This assessment was also reached by TRS out West when they developed their adjustable engine mounts. If you watch one of their videos they posted online, they never say to add more forward twist than around .020".
I agree. And the famous Aaen states as much in his clutching manual. Yes, as one of the resident experts just stated, Aaen is dead. But he was a great engineer when he was alive. I also do not use those expensive adjustable mounts. Instead, I just "untwist" the engine by slotting the left rear engine mount bracket about .060 and adding a .060 washer between the left front mount and the frame. The exact amount depends on how far the engine is twisted too much. This is much cheaper and just as effective. I've done it to many 850 Polaris engines. NA and Boost. The 9r is likely just as bad.

So to be clear IF i didn’t use the aftermarket mounts I could just take a measurement of what it would take to get the lead in to 20thous. Then slot the LEFT rear mount that amount or a touch more. And then shim the LEFT front mount to chassis connection the same amount needed for 20thous.. and then just loosen the RIGHT side mounts to allow the movement . Then lock it all down and varify the 20thous. Is still achieved ? Does this sum it up ?

 

[Lid2]

See there was issues/changes to the mounting bolt on the P22. Now there is no less then 4 aftermarket companies making a product to lock the spider on simular to the jam nut on the P85. I'd be running something to lock the spider in place on the P22.

Keep in mind some of the clutch issues are probably created by the owners or shops not using proper diligence during service and installation of clutch and parts to include proper torque and retorque . I’m not a huge p22 fan. But l think some of this is end user . I personally would not use the aftermarket “lock” that require gallons of locktite. Just my opinion