[440WTRider]

Thanks rich03sks700 Hope you didn't mind me using your quote it was in my computer from a long while back. I've been reading and rereading it and it sounds to be true, I just need some other inputs on this issue and I got it Thanks again:thumbsup:

 

[XCR1250]

More oil would make it run rich. I though the more you lean out the motor the more hp
Is the sled running lean from the factory settings ?


Sent from Snowmobile.com Free App

Oil rich, not fuel rich, adding more oil also lowers fuel octane.

 

[rich03sks700]

Here is one section of the write up I mentioned . This was done on a 2 stroke pre-mix MX bike engine . This write up is very long and there are many other factors to consider . However , this section shows the power gains for the amount of oil needed for max hp on this motor . Granted with todays improved engine we may not see this much of a need for more oil for the HP gain . This is not my work .

"I have run Dyno tests on this subject, as a school project in Tech School. We used a Dynojet dynamometer, and used a fresh, broken in top-end for each test. We used specially calibrated jets to ensure the fuel flow was identical with each different ratio, and warmed the engine at 3000 rpm for 3 minutes before each run. Our tests were performed in the rpm range of 2500 to 9000 rpm, with the power peak of our test bike (an '86 YZ 250) occuring at 8750 rpm. We tested at 76 degrees F, at 65% relative humidity. We started at 10:1, and went to 100:1. Our results showed that a two-stroke engine makes its best power at 18:1. Any more oil than that, and the engine ran poorly, because we didn't have any jets rich enough to compensate for that much oil in the fuel. The power loss from 18:1 to 32:1 was approximately 2 percent. The loss from 18:1 to 50:1 was nearly 9 percent. On a modern 250, that can be as much as 4 horsepower. The loss from 18:1 to 100:1 was nearly 18 percent. The reason for the difference in output is simple. More oil provides a better seal between the ring and the cylinder wall. "

Excellent post!!!,,,There have been many reports wrote on two stroke HP increase when using more oil... This includes your posted info on a 86 YZ250... Also FTXMOTORSPORTS posts, more info on the SnoWest post below.. http://www.snowestonline.com/forum/showthread.php?t=275294&highlight=oil+pump+adjustment
Posted by Eli 09-11-2011, Here is a quote on a three-wheeler forum regarding oil..... Pre-mix ratios and power production,,, I have run Dyno tests on this subject. We used a Dynojet dynamometer, and used a fresh, broken in top-end for each test. We used specially calibrated jets to ensure the fuel flow was identical with each different ratio, and warmed the engine at 3000 rpm for 3 minutes before each run. Our tests were performed in the rpm range of 2500 to 9000 rpm, with the power peak of our test bike (a modifed '86 YZ 250, mine) occuring at 8750 rpm. We tested at 76 degrees F, at 65% relative humidity. We started at 10:1, and went to 100:1. Our results showed that a two-stroke engine makes its best power at 18:1. Any more oil than that, and the engine ran poorly, because we didn't have any jets rich enough to compensate for that much oil in the fuel, and the burn-characteristics of the fuel with that much oil tended to be poor. The power loss from 18:1 to 32:1 was approximately 2 percent. The loss from 18:1 to 50:1 was nearly 9 percent. On a modern 250, that can be as much as 4 horsepower. The loss from 18:1 to 100:1 was nearly 18 percent. The reason for the difference in output is simple. More oil provides a better seal between the ring and the cylinder wall.

Now, I realize that 18:1 is impractical unless you ride your engine all-out, keeping it pinned at all times. But running reasonable ratios no less than 32:1 will produce more power, and give your engine better protection, thus making it perform better for longer.

As a side note, I no longer run 26:1, I now run 32:1. I'm not a young man any more, and I just can't push as hard as I used to, so I don't need as much oil now. 32:1 is enough oil to do what is needed for me now, since I'm getting slow..
=============
===============
Post by FTXMOTORSPORTS 9-11-2011:
This is interesting and one of those questions we get almost daily. In all the riding, racing and dyno thrashing we've been involved in over the last 15 years or so, there is one thing I can tell you for sure, most any two stroke will live longer, seal better and as a result make better power with more oil than less within reason. what's the number? in our shop, 32:1 on bores 81mm and larger, 40:1 on the smaller stuff. The difference, in our opinion, mainly due to the longer heat path on the bigger bores.

Now, if you are running 32:1 in say a 700 twin or larger engine and are getting carbon build up in the manifold to the point that it affects power out put...you are way off on the rest of the engine calibration or the ignition is failing. I've yet to see a properly calibrated modern two stroke sled engine that won't be happy on a 32:1 mix--all the statements about the oil leaning out or richening up the fuel mixture do not apply to the engines we are discussing here (unless you go off the deep end as stated above...16:1 etc).
If we were discussing chainsaws or weed whackers my opinion would change drastically due to the tiny bore sizes involved and several other factors.

Don't think I'm just spouting here, just relaying real world experiences that have turned into gospel in my shop.

As far as the CFI engines go, I agree fully with MH and his opinions about the current oiling situations being EPA related (the past and current poor fuel and timing curves also). It has been our experience that you can definitely increase the oil pump delivery AND WE RUN OIL IN THE FUEL TANK ALSO. We have never and do not expect to ever see any negative issues from this, the exhaust valves do not "carbon up" more, neither do the exhaust ports or manifolds AS LONG AS THE REST OF THE TUNE IS PROPER!.... much more info in this post...
xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Posted by mountainhorse 09-11-2011:
I wonder what the thermal content, in BTU's/Lb (or the metric equiv)... of a given gasoline and a given oil is mixed at say 4 different ratios... 50:1 , 40:1 , 30:1 , 20:1

Ring seal is not something that I considered...but the bore size, stroke, ring velocity/acceleration and thickness.. bore material, ring material would also have an effect on the output. So for this conversation... we'll keep it to the Stock CFi 800 engine so we don't get side-tracked.

More oil for ring sealing might balance out less thermal content of an oil/fuel mix. HMMM...

 

[rabbi]

32:1, I would hate to be following that sled for any distance.
50:1 would be closer to my thinking.

 

[northstarrick]

the other thing about adding oil to your fuel in any c.f.i. sled. its a very good idea anyway. it helps lube the fuel pump,regulator,injectors, etc. fuel is a solvent no lubrication at all. put 1oz. per gallon of fuel.

vent the pro-ride oil tank.

there is a issue with the cap vent ball.

even turning the oil pump up has shown fuel to oil ratios to still be all over the place.

during testing where i put a seperate vent in the tank, the oil usage stayed consistant.

i have designed a vent kit for this.

turn your oil pump up so it is using at least 50/1.

both 600/800.

the comments about doo and there oil usage. doo does not oil there outer crank bearings at all. they use iso flex grease in these bearings. they have a ctr. sealed crank shaft. the water pump shaft is in a constant oil bath. no loss oil bath. so you can't compare that to the polaris motor.

so think about that a moment. poo's 800 uses less oil then doo's 8. does that sound good to you?

 

[440WTRider]

the other thing about adding oil to your fuel in any c.f.i. sled. its a very good idea anyway. it helps lube the fuel pump,regulator,injectors, etc. fuel is a solvent no lubrication at all. put 1oz. per gallon of fuel.

vent the pro-ride oil tank.

there is a issue with the cap vent ball.

even turning the oil pump up has shown fuel to oil ratios to still be all over the place.

during testing where i put a seperate vent in the tank, the oil usage stayed consistant.

i have designed a vent kit for this.

turn your oil pump up so it is using at least 50/1.

both 600/800.

the comments about doo and there oil usage. doo does not oil there outer crank bearings at all. they use iso flex grease in these bearings. they have a ctr. sealed crank shaft. the water pump shaft is in a constant oil bath. no loss oil bath. so you can't compare that to the polaris motor.

so think about that a moment. poo's 800 uses less oil then doo's 8. does that sound good to you?

Thanks Can you post a pic or explain what you did in detail,every little bit helps....

 

[clay350]

Im glad I read this thread I will definetely be turning my pump up and maybe adding oil in my gas. This thread has me a little more concerned about the Indy i bought last year. Before the indy I swore I would never go back to a two stroke machine. The Yamaha 4 strokes I had were as reliable as a hammer and engine trouble virtually non-existent.

I liked the cost, WEIGHT, and performance of the indy. My thoughts were that I should give the new generation EFI two strokes a try thinking they were bound to be much more reliable and less troublesome than previous two strokes. Its a little worrying to me that there is such a wide perception of oiling practices that is so critical to these engines.

Is it fair to say these new EFI engines are more reliable than the older carb engines?

 

[rabbi]

Don't be concerned.
First thing to do is accurately track fuel and oil usage then calculate the
fuel: oil ratio.
It will vary somewhat with conditions and riding habits.
If it falls somewhere in the 50-60:1 you're good to go.
Getting up in the 75-85:1 area and I would be cranking the pump up and recalculating.

I haven't been adding oil to the fuel yet but may do so in the future.
I love the stone cold reliability of the Indy Sp so far but I also plan on
putting a ton of miles on it in the next few years.
The goal is to make it last also.:thumbsup:

To answer you last question, IMO with a little common sense these EFI's
can be just as reliable as the older carbed versions.
Proper warm up practices, good pre and post season maintenance,
using good fuel and oil all contribute to a long lasting engine.

 

[poster]

any concern with oil going through the fuel filter all the time?

 

[ratman6161]

any concern with oil going through the fuel filter all the time?

Especially since its $155

 

[-dw-]

any concern with oil going through the fuel filter all the time?

Being its mixed with gas and so thin, no.

 

[rich03sks700]

the other thing about adding oil to your fuel in any c.f.i. sled. its a very good idea anyway. it helps lube the fuel pump,regulator,injectors, etc. fuel is a solvent no lubrication at all. put 1oz. per gallon of fuel.

vent the pro-ride oil tank.

there is aissue with the cap vent ball.

even turning the oil pump up has shown fuel to oil ratios to still be all over the place.

during testing where i put a seperate vent in the tank, the oil usage stayed consistant.

i have designed a vent kit for this.

turn your oil pump up so it is using at least 50/1.

both 600/800.

the comments about doo and there oil usage. doo does not oil there outer crank bearings at all. they use iso flex grease in these bearings. they have a ctr. sealed crank shaft. the water pump shaft is in a constant oil bath. no loss oil bath. so you can't compare that to the polaris motor.

so think about that a moment. poo's 800 uses less oil then doo's 8. does that sound good to you?

SPOT ON POST!!!
At approx 100:1 fuel oil ratio there should not be a problem with the 10 micron Polaris fuel filter ($200) or a good high quality after market $50 fuel filter/hose assy from HCS PaasoRacing or NorthStarRick...

If there is more then a 1000 miles on your fuel filter suggest to install a new fuel filter/line hose assy with, a $200 from my Wis Polaris dealer or approx. $50 for a high quality aftermarket filter/hose assy from HCS PaasoRacing or NorthStarRick, both are very good to deal with... Paaso Racing just e-mails you a PayPal form to fill out, add a credit card, easy done deal...
If any bad fuel, water phase separation, dirt etc., easily plugs up the small 10 micron Polaris fuel filter...Then it's very easy to burn down an engine and or damage the $500 fuel pump.... I now will replace my 800 Rush fuel filter every 1000 miles!!!!!!!!
Last year my 2012 600 Pro R SB & four other Rushes had plugged up fuel filters, whining $500 fuel pumps, engines almost locked up at approx. 2000 miles ...

Also suggest to purchase from HCS NortStarRick's $39 oil tank vent kit,,, as my 2012 600 Pro R SB oil tank's cap had a sticking check valve breather, fuel to oil ratio varied from 50:1 to 95:1!!! Plus my 2014 600 Pro Rush had a 1.25" air bubble in oil line at oil tank!!!!
Good Luck; Rich

 

[04xcspfraser]

don't look great but should work.

 

[rich03sks700]

don't look great but should work.

Looks Great, I have planed to do a similar mode to a spare used oil cap!!!

My 2012 600 Pro R SB oil tank's cap had a sticking check valve breather, fuel to oil ratio varied from 50:1 to 95:1!!! Plus my 2014 600 Pro Rush had a 1.25" air bubble in oil line at oil tank!!!!

Last month I heated up a small nail and melted a small hole off center inside of oil cap and melted in a large centered out side hole... No drilling as I do not want plastic junk locking up the oil pump...
*This will properly vent oil tank, but most likely will puke a little oil out of the larger out side center hole..??

Yesterday I ordered a new $22 oil cap for just when returning sled to dealer for any warranty, as my dealer will not lie to Polaris. Dealer is highly respected by Polaris, that rejects very few warranties submitted by this dealer...

So for warranty reasons I order from PaasoRacing a new OEM oil cap, for any trips my sled makes to dealer...

Also ordered from PaasoRacing the oil tank's lower outlet/supply fittings, flanged grommet, straight fitting & oil filter... Then I will install these parts in the center of an oil cap with approx. two feet of plastic hose for a good oil tank vent...Just pull vent hose off from oil cap fitting when removing cap to add oil.. I will check with my brother if he has any old used oil tank caps that I can rework.... I will post a photo after I rework a used oil tank cap adding a vent...

I also order several $50 & $35 aftermarket fuel filters for my 2014 800 Rush (OEM fuel filter/Assy $200) & brothers 2012 600 Pro R SB from PaasoRacing, very easy dealing with Mark Paaso, he just set up a PayPall account to pay for parts...

Plan to order Legend ZX-2SR oil from Mark Passo Racing next month...

 

[04xcspfraser]

the line on it is just for pics iam goin to use 2 feet of new line and re route it away from the clutches.

 

[poster]

did you drill out the bottom of the cap as well?

 

[04xcspfraser]

yes with a smaller size bit.

 

[cdnzr800]

yes with a smaller size bit.

Got a picture of the underside of the cap?
Whats holding the brass fitting to the cap?

 

[04xcspfraser]

I made it so the fitting screwed in tight in the plastic then used gasket maker that was it simple.

 

[VintageBlack]

Anyone know the size of the jam nut on the oil adjuster