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Unfortunately there are not many snowmobile only trails these days. The ones we used to have that ran on seasonal county roads have now been opened to year round ORV use. NFS land still has some snowmobile only trails, but even state forest roads have been opened to year round ORV use.

I own sleds, ATV's and a SXS and would support closing down ORV's in the LP from Jan 1st to Mar 1st everywhere except for use on ORV Trails and ORV Routes.
The problem in Michigan is that a lot of the snowmobile trails run on seasonal country roads, which he DNR and MSA have zero control over. Now the county could make certain roads off limits to wheeled vehicles, but they would still have to allow someone to access their land with a vehicle.
SO I deal with this all of the time. In fact I had a volunteer groomer driver quite, among other things specifically stated due to trucks driving on the trail that he just groomed destroying all of his hard work. The story is these few guys own trucks and like to take one of our trails as a shortcut between their places, and do it all around the year. In fact when the trail gets too tore up and there is lots of snow they can't use their favorite cut across - UNLESS IT IS GROOMED! This is a 12 mile out and back trail, so the groomer leaves the loop and heads out to the dead end, and by the time he is coming back he finds big wheel ruts in that fresh trail! You see these folks typically can't get out in lots of snow unless the road is hard packed - by the groomer. That groom is paid for by snowmobilers - not atv, nor road vehicles. For the most part neither of those groups could be out on the trails unless the snowmobiles paid to make the access for them, and that is the rub.

This really is a simple thing, and I seriously hope that that legislation is NOT being tied to groomed trails except ORV routes and trails - because this will do zero good for me, and will open up 72 of 101 miles of my trails to non-snowmobile traffic (FYI I am in the UP) You see years ago the writing was on the wall on snowmobile funding, and we agreed to sponsor all of our snow trails that were eligible as ORV routes. They are routes because they are all so wide. This is a great thing because I can share the cost of trail maintenance - brushing, culverts, bridge repair, etc between 2 programs and I could not fund the improvements without the ORV help. However those routes ARE OPEN year around and if the legislation does not help us, then the snowmobiles are getting royally screwed. Many of the trucks around here know the rules, and use them against us and ride those groomed trails for fun.

It isn't just the ORV recreational stuff either, we have big problems with hunters. These guys will go out with their trucks on a groomed trail and park with the doors open, right in the middle of the trail and run dogs and stuff. Face is they could not be where they are without a hard packed snowmobile (paid for) trail, yet they get pissed when we suggest they should not be there, or they get roosted when a sled drives by. I am not saying they should not be hunting where they are, but they should be on a sled, and park off the trail. Just because you have a right to hunt, does not mean you have the right to use the trail that was paid for by the snowmobiles - regardless if the underlying land (road) is open to that turck.

I don't understand why this is so hard? The way I want to see it for groomed snowmobile trails:
When there is 6in of snow on the ground, and grooming is authorized by the local DNR then the following apply:
  • If a trail is on a open (year around OR plowed) county road, it is open to all traffic.
  • If a person must use a designated snowmobile trail to access private property - then they are allowed to use any means they want to access that property, including using snowmobile, atv, orv, truck and yes even plowing the trail to create access. This will be authorized by the local DNR, and they will be giving a free permit that they can show to avoid any incorrect use ticketing.
  • If a trail is on a seasonal county road - snowmobile only.
  • If the trail is on a ORV trail or route, sorry snowmobile only.
  • A picture of a offending vehicle showing location and registration or license plate should be sufficient to issue a ticket to the vehicle owner. Along with this, ORV trail stickers will need to include traceable numbers like the snowmobile stickers do.

  1. We don't want to restrict anyones access to their property.
  2. ORVs pay for summer maintenance, they get Apr-Nov
  3. Snowmobiles pay (a lot more) for winter maintenance, they get Dec-Mar
  4. If weather is favorable outside of either of those date ranges, everyone shares.
What the hell is so hard about that?
 

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Nothing is wrong with that. Cut and paste and send it to your legislators. Ask them to sponsor a bill that would make that the law. Simple (except it's not that simple).

The real problem is as you already know we are low in numbers compared to the others. This puts a bigger damper on trying to get things to happen in the legislatures.
 

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SO I deal with this all of the time. In fact I had a volunteer groomer driver quite, among other things specifically stated due to trucks driving on the trail that he just groomed destroying all of his hard work. The story is these few guys own trucks and like to take one of our trails as a shortcut between their places, and do it all around the year. In fact when the trail gets too tore up and there is lots of snow they can't use their favorite cut across - UNLESS IT IS GROOMED! This is a 12 mile out and back trail, so the groomer leaves the loop and heads out to the dead end, and by the time he is coming back he finds big wheel ruts in that fresh trail! You see these folks typically can't get out in lots of snow unless the road is hard packed - by the groomer. That groom is paid for by snowmobilers - not atv, nor road vehicles. For the most part neither of those groups could be out on the trails unless the snowmobiles paid to make the access for them, and that is the rub.

This really is a simple thing, and I seriously hope that that legislation is NOT being tied to groomed trails except ORV routes and trails - because this will do zero good for me, and will open up 72 of 101 miles of my trails to non-snowmobile traffic (FYI I am in the UP) You see years ago the writing was on the wall on snowmobile funding, and we agreed to sponsor all of our snow trails that were eligible as ORV routes. They are routes because they are all so wide. This is a great thing because I can share the cost of trail maintenance - brushing, culverts, bridge repair, etc between 2 programs and I could not fund the improvements without the ORV help. However those routes ARE OPEN year around and if the legislation does not help us, then the snowmobiles are getting royally screwed. Many of the trucks around here know the rules, and use them against us and ride those groomed trails for fun.

It isn't just the ORV recreational stuff either, we have big problems with hunters. These guys will go out with their trucks on a groomed trail and park with the doors open, right in the middle of the trail and run dogs and stuff. Face is they could not be where they are without a hard packed snowmobile (paid for) trail, yet they get pissed when we suggest they should not be there, or they get roosted when a sled drives by. I am not saying they should not be hunting where they are, but they should be on a sled, and park off the trail. Just because you have a right to hunt, does not mean you have the right to use the trail that was paid for by the snowmobiles - regardless if the underlying land (road) is open to that turck.

I don't understand why this is so hard? The way I want to see it for groomed snowmobile trails:
When there is 6in of snow on the ground, and grooming is authorized by the local DNR then the following apply:
  • If a trail is on a open (year around OR plowed) county road, it is open to all traffic.
  • If a person must use a designated snowmobile trail to access private property - then they are allowed to use any means they want to access that property, including using snowmobile, atv, orv, truck and yes even plowing the trail to create access. This will be authorized by the local DNR, and they will be giving a free permit that they can show to avoid any incorrect use ticketing.
  • If a trail is on a seasonal county road - snowmobile only.
  • If the trail is on a ORV trail or route, sorry snowmobile only.
  • A picture of a offending vehicle showing location and registration or license plate should be sufficient to issue a ticket to the vehicle owner. Along with this, ORV trail stickers will need to include traceable numbers like the snowmobile stickers do.

  1. We don't want to restrict anyones access to their property.
  2. ORVs pay for summer maintenance, they get Apr-Nov
  3. Snowmobiles pay (a lot more) for winter maintenance, they get Dec-Mar
  4. If weather is favorable outside of either of those date ranges, everyone shares.
What the hell is so hard about that?
T
Yes! The legislation I read said ORV routes would still be open to ORVs even if it's being groomed for snowmobiles. Isn't your ORV Routes open right now, because I dont see anywhere that says they are closed to ORV'S?

Indiviual counties would have to be the ones to make ORV and trucks off limits to a seasonal road. In many areas I doubt they would go for that and turn away the revenue ORV'S are generating. Snowmobiles are a big minority in the LP now. Definitely not like it used to be.
 

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The business are on roads to begin with. These roads can be designated OHV routes and these riders can patronize these establishments via there’s routes. The trails can be reserved for snowmobile use only in winter months. The business will get sxs, Jeep’s, atvs via routes and snowmobiles via trails. There’s no law against being able to get to a business multiple ways.
 

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SO I deal with this all of the time. In fact I had a volunteer groomer driver quite, among other things specifically stated due to trucks driving on the trail that he just groomed destroying all of his hard work. The story is these few guys own trucks and like to take one of our trails as a shortcut between their places, and do it all around the year.
Much of your trails are under USFS jurisdiction and currently have seasonal restrictions for all wheeled vehicles. Have you pursued it with Fed Law Enforcement to get them to enforce it? Obviously don't know what section you are specifically having problems with but I'd guess it's on USFS 3118, (trail 47 east of trail 2).


[*]If a trail is on a seasonal county road - snowmobile only.
County road is county road, "seasonal" only allows the road commission to skip maintenance during snow season and not lose funding. Statute does not change on who/what is allowed to use it based on time of year. That said, most all of your system west of the Hiawatha NF is not on county roads.

Sucks to have a groomed trailed ruined, sucks to lose a groomer operator as they are a pretty rare breed to begin with.
 

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T
Yes! The legislation I read said ORV routes would still be open to ORVs even if it's being groomed for snowmobiles. Isn't your ORV Routes open right now, because I dont see anywhere that says they are closed to ORV'S?

Individual counties would have to be the ones to make ORV and trucks off limits to a seasonal road. In many areas I doubt they would go for that and turn away the revenue ORV'S are generating. Snowmobiles are a big minority in the LP now. Definitely not like it used to be.
Correct. I helped duel designate everything possible for the funding, the access and shared maintenance. 70 of our 101 miles are duel use.

Much of your trails are under USFS jurisdiction and currently have seasonal restrictions for all wheeled vehicles. Have you pursued it with Fed Law Enforcement to get them to enforce it? Obviously don't know what section you are specifically having problems with but I'd guess it's on USFS 3118, (trail 47 east of trail 2).

County road is county road, "seasonal" only allows the road commission to skip maintenance during snow season and not lose funding. Statute does not change on who/what is allowed to use it based on time of year. That said, most all of your system west of the Hiawatha NF is not on county roads.

Sucks to have a groomed trailed ruined, sucks to lose a groomer operator as they are a pretty rare breed to begin with.
Not exactly 3118, mostly 3450, but they are connected and you are in the right area.
In reality, we have an ongoing issue everywhere, but the Cedarville trail you cited, and Castle ROck Road coming out of Iggy are the worst offenders. Yes, trust me, we have pursued the legal aspect until we are blue in the face. There is only so many hours in the day, and remember we are supposed to be volunteers in this crap. Yes on that particular trail, through USFS land it is not an allowed use. HOWEVER, the rules are so confusing and mapping is so hard to use, the state and county law will not touch it. We have been working with the USFS law, but they like to give the benefit of the doubt in most instances due to the conflicting info. A simple, general law for all groomed trails needs to be implemented. If you want to make slightly differing laws in the UP and LP, then I would be open to hearing it, but it doesn't sound like a good idea.

Yes, "Seasonal" roads are basically a legal term for maintenance, but you can easily extend that to the general public (or those with a brain) Most people in a car will not go down a seasonal road in the winter because it is not maintained. They can not access it unless it is being maintained. If snowmobile funds provide that maintenance, we should be able to control who utilized that finished product.

I will reiterate, if you pass something without including ORV trails & routes, you may as well not waste your time as it is useless. PERIOD.
 

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SO I deal with this all of the time. In fact I had a volunteer groomer driver quite, among other things specifically stated due to trucks driving on the trail that he just groomed destroying all of his hard work. The story is these few guys own trucks and like to take one of our trails as a shortcut between their places, and do it all around the year. In fact when the trail gets too tore up and there is lots of snow they can't use their favorite cut across - UNLESS IT IS GROOMED! This is a 12 mile out and back trail, so the groomer leaves the loop and heads out to the dead end, and by the time he is coming back he finds big wheel ruts in that fresh trail! You see these folks typically can't get out in lots of snow unless the road is hard packed - by the groomer. That groom is paid for by snowmobilers - not atv, nor road vehicles. For the most part neither of those groups could be out on the trails unless the snowmobiles paid to make the access for them, and that is the rub.

This really is a simple thing, and I seriously hope that that legislation is NOT being tied to groomed trails except ORV routes and trails - because this will do zero good for me, and will open up 72 of 101 miles of my trails to non-snowmobile traffic (FYI I am in the UP) You see years ago the writing was on the wall on snowmobile funding, and we agreed to sponsor all of our snow trails that were eligible as ORV routes. They are routes because they are all so wide. This is a great thing because I can share the cost of trail maintenance - brushing, culverts, bridge repair, etc between 2 programs and I could not fund the improvements without the ORV help. However those routes ARE OPEN year around and if the legislation does not help us, then the snowmobiles are getting royally screwed. Many of the trucks around here know the rules, and use them against us and ride those groomed trails for fun.

It isn't just the ORV recreational stuff either, we have big problems with hunters. These guys will go out with their trucks on a groomed trail and park with the doors open, right in the middle of the trail and run dogs and stuff. Face is they could not be where they are without a hard packed snowmobile (paid for) trail, yet they get pissed when we suggest they should not be there, or they get roosted when a sled drives by. I am not saying they should not be hunting where they are, but they should be on a sled, and park off the trail. Just because you have a right to hunt, does not mean you have the right to use the trail that was paid for by the snowmobiles - regardless if the underlying land (road) is open to that turck.

I don't understand why this is so hard? The way I want to see it for groomed snowmobile trails:
When there is 6in of snow on the ground, and grooming is authorized by the local DNR then the following apply:
  • If a trail is on a open (year around OR plowed) county road, it is open to all traffic.
  • If a person must use a designated snowmobile trail to access private property - then they are allowed to use any means they want to access that property, including using snowmobile, atv, orv, truck and yes even plowing the trail to create access. This will be authorized by the local DNR, and they will be giving a free permit that they can show to avoid any incorrect use ticketing.
  • If a trail is on a seasonal county road - snowmobile only.
  • If the trail is on a ORV trail or route, sorry snowmobile only.
  • A picture of a offending vehicle showing location and registration or license plate should be sufficient to issue a ticket to the vehicle owner. Along with this, ORV trail stickers will need to include traceable numbers like the snowmobile stickers do.

  1. We don't want to restrict anyones access to their property.
  2. ORVs pay for summer maintenance, they get Apr-Nov
  3. Snowmobiles pay (a lot more) for winter maintenance, they get Dec-Mar
  4. If weather is favorable outside of either of those date ranges, everyone shares.
What the hell is so hard about that?
It doesn’t have to be hard, but in typical fashion it has become an issue on many levels. The words on the little orange sign say groomed snowmobile trail from December 1-March 31. Then it makes sense that only snowmobiles should be allowed during this time. No wheel vehicles period. And I don’t think this is the snowmobile group being selfish and not sharing. As you’ve stated, funds are set aside from snowmobile trail permits to groom and maintain these trails. So during that time they should be free from a SxS or wheeled vehicle tearing them up. If I just spent 8 hours in a groomer laying down a nice ribbon, I’d be pissed if SxS’s passed me and destroyed everything I just did. I don’t think this is a big ask to respect these trails during this time. The snowmobile season has become basically an 8 week season with the months of January and February usually being reliable. The months of December and March are a crap shoot and are bonus riding months in most years. So we as snowmobilers are asking that you please stay off the groomed trails during these 8 weeks. You can have the other 44 weeks in the year. I think you’re getting the better deal. But we also know the reality is people will do what they want no matter what rules are in place. We have rules of the road in our cars that people violate regularly. The other issue if such rules were passed, you will have problems with enforcement. Law enforcement agencies are already stretched thin and can barely provide enough officers for road patrol let alone supplying officers for snowmobile enforcement. With increased low snow years and the popularity of the SxS crowd, you could see this coming. People just want to get out of the house and ride whether it’s a snowmobile or SxS. We appreciate everything you do in Iggy, the best maintained trails in the UP.


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The other issue if such rules were passed, you will have problems with enforcement. Law enforcement agencies are already stretched thin and can barely provide enough officers for road patrol let alone supplying officers for snowmobile enforcement. With increased low snow years and the popularity of the SxS crowd, you could see this coming. People just want to get out of the house and ride whether it’s a snowmobile or SxS. We appreciate everything you do in Iggy, the best maintained trails in the UP.
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Nope, not a problem. Part of your snowmobile permit goes to law enforcement, that money can be used for that purpose too. The rub is getting a law into place that has some teeth. I don't care about the occasional person that may go the wrong way, I have an issue with those who intentionally go out and mess things up for their own selfish reason.
 

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Nope, not a problem. Part of your snowmobile permit goes to law enforcement, that money can be used for that purpose too. The rub is getting a law into place that has some teeth. I don't care about the occasional person that may go the wrong way, I have an issue with those who intentionally go out and mess things up for their own selfish reason.
We got a LEO in northern WI we would LOVE to send your way...for free, lol
 

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In reality, we have an ongoing issue everywhere, but the Cedarville trail you cited, and Castle ROck Road coming out of Iggy are the worst offenders. Yes, trust me, we have pursued the legal aspect until we are blue in the face. There is only so many hours in the day, and remember we are supposed to be volunteers in this crap. Yes on that particular trail, through USFS land it is not an allowed use. HOWEVER, the rules are so confusing and mapping is so hard to use, the state and county law will not touch it. We have been working with the USFS law, but they like to give the benefit of the doubt in most instances due to the conflicting info. A simple, general law for all groomed trails needs to be implemented. If you want to make slightly differing laws in the UP and LP, then I would be open to hearing it, but it doesn't sound like a good idea.
Appreciate your thoughts and efforts. Again, I don't want to see groomed snow trails ruined. Definitely do not want to see any trail loss.

Ok, so the Feds have rules in place on the roads the designated trail is on through their jurisdiction, but they won't enforce them. Correct?
Since that's a federal law, the DNR and Sheriff are able to enforce the Fed law. But they are also not doing so, correct?
It's not a new law, the MVUM and the travel management rule have been in place since 2010.

If the State were to pass a law, it would not apply to trails on USFS land. The Feds would not recognize it, but at the same time the Feds have similar rules in place for some of the trails, but they are not enforcing them (at least not in winter in your experience, not aware of it happening elsewhere either, am aware of it happening in summer).

I'm very skeptical passing a new law is going to make an actual on-the-ground difference.

I agree simpler is better, so agree with the premise put forth for a "simple general law". Except county roads will not be closed (for sake of discussion, let's say seasonal county roads would, but non-seasonal would not).
The Feds won't put in the exact same rules.
So there's 2 items right off the bat that will stop it from being a "simple" or consistent law.

That's not to say we should do nothing.
 

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Nope, not a problem. Part of your snowmobile permit goes to law enforcement, that money can be used for that purpose too. The rub is getting a law into place that has some teeth. I don't care about the occasional person that may go the wrong way, I have an issue with those who intentionally go out and mess things up for their own selfish reason.
I had hoped that you respond to this thread. I have ridden your trail after a truck has used them. It can make a mess of things especially in a limited snow situation.
I would like to compliment you and your club for the great job you do on the iggy trails. You can do more with less . I highly recommend dropping at iggy and stopping and supporting the business on the system.
Thank you for all your hard work.
 

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Its to bad the permanent snowmobile easement program wasn't started 45-50 years ago in Michigan.They have something now but it doesn't seem to get much funding to be able to buy much land easements for snowmobile trails only. Because the situation now has become urgent, the only way I see permanent Michigan snowmobile trail easements being accomplished, is for in the coming years to "temporarily" have all snowmobilers step up and pony up to fund a permanent snowmobile trail easement program. We better put the grooming program on the backburner and buy the land easements before we won't have any land to groom to ride anymore. Ideally businesses who benefit from snowmobiler's would also help out with funding for permanent snowmobile trail easement.
Oh and wouldn't it be nice if the snowmobilers has access to the same slush fund the hikey bikeys always have access to for their never ending pampered pooch projects.
Or another choice might be we can all change over to Crossover or Mountain sleds and we stop grooming and all our riding in essence will be off trail riding only.
The bottom line is, if Michigan Legislatures don't create a law that says snowmobiles only on all designated snowmobile trails from Dec1-March31 this problem is not going to go away and only become a bigger issue every year.
So we can pony up and buy snowmobile only easements in a set time span, or we can change over to snowmobile boondocking only and no groomed trails, or Legislators can create a badly needed snowmobiles only trail law from Dec-March, or snowmobiling just goes away as we know it.
If we the snowmobilers don't agree to temporally fund a snowmobile only trail land easement program ourselves, it will never happen in time to save the groomed snowmobile trails of Michigan.
Jeeps, Trucks, SxS, Fat tire bikes, Dog sledders, Cross Country Skiers, People walking their dog, and on & on. Most of those listed my wife and I have met on trails in the Eastern & Central U.P. where we do the majority of our riding.
So I am just sayin, its something to consider as our time to buy available land is now before the snowmobile trails are forever destroyed in Michigan.
 

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Appreciate your thoughts and efforts. Again, I don't want to see groomed snow trails ruined. Definitely do not want to see any trail loss.

Ok, so the Feds have rules in place on the roads the designated trail is on through their jurisdiction, but they won't enforce them. Correct?
Since that's a federal law, the DNR and Sheriff are able to enforce the Fed law. But they are also not doing so, correct?
It's not a new law, the MVUM and the travel management rule have been in place since 2010.

If the State were to pass a law, it would not apply to trails on USFS land. The Feds would not recognize it, but at the same time the Feds have similar rules in place for some of the trails, but they are not enforcing them (at least not in winter in your experience, not aware of it happening elsewhere either, am aware of it happening in summer).

I'm very skeptical passing a new law is going to make an actual on-the-ground difference.

I agree simpler is better, so agree with the premise put forth for a "simple general law". Except county roads will not be closed (for sake of discussion, let's say seasonal county roads would, but non-seasonal would not).
The Feds won't put in the exact same rules.
So there's 2 items right off the bat that will stop it from being a "simple" or consistent law.

That's not to say we should do nothing.
It isn't that the fed law isn't in place, and actually enforceable in a couple of areas, it is the fact that there is so many different rules for different areas, law tends to give the benefit of the doubt. They feel bad that when you are on a trail, cross a road and on the same trail you may go from legal to illegal. The fed problem actually was created by themselves, on purpose. They were mandated to have so many miles of open road, but really did not want people out in the forest, so they open up non-connected roads, so that you literally had to trailer from one road to another to ride. They did it vindictively and on purpose to give the illusion of access, but not really. Just take a look at a forest map from 5-10 years ago and it looks like a 5 year old threw darts at a mop to give access. Now our new ranger was working on the new road plan a couple of years ago that was trying to fix things, but in reality they are still pretty messed up.

I thin if they got one unified, simplified easy to follow law passed for the state lands and trails then we would have a fighting chance. Only 30 of my 101 miles are on fed lands, and of that I only have real issues with 20 of that. The other 71 miles I also have issue with and those could be fixed by passing a new law.

Fact is is the state would implement something that made sense to all, then the feds would likely support it, or at least be more able to enforce the rules thy have - as if the state trail was closed, and the fed trail right next to it was closed too, there is zero doubt you are being a dumbass and getting a ticket.

An extension of that is the point of my former driver. This is still a volunteer based system. Guys are only going to do it if they feel they are making a difference. At some point we are all going to just say screw it and quit. Three is way more groomer operation and support people walking away then we have new people coming in. Stuff like this is just one more thing that chips away at the whole operation.

I had hoped that you respond to this thread. I have ridden your trail after a truck has used them. It can make a mess of things especially in a limited snow situation.
I would like to compliment you and your club for the great job you do on the iggy trails. You can do more with less . I highly recommend dropping at iggy and stopping and supporting the business on the system.
Thank you for all your hard work.
I very much appreciate the comment. Warm and fuzzy smile, which are few and far between lately.

Here is hoping that that you will actually have something to ride in our area this season. Right now, I think we are going to get 2 big storms, and ride hard for 6 weeks here and be done. Just the feeling I get for this season. RIght now we have good frost, and just a little snow. We need a good 5in of wet stuff to make something happen. Snow dance time!
 

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If your encounter was north and west of Houghton Lake on a designated Snowmobile Trail, then the wheeled vehicle was legal to be there.
Exception would be Trail 7 north of 4 Mile Road until it crosses M72, as it skirts along Camp Grayling.

The rest are legal for street licensed vehicles, and also open to ORVs and also part of the Designated ORV System (those snowmobile trails are also ORV Routes).

I know I will sound like a jerk, and I do not mean to, but from what you describe, the only problem with the encounter was that one person was improperly obstructing the other.
To say you sound like a 'jerk' would be to put it mildly.

Let's put this in perspective.

This is a snowmobile forum. People are discussing legitimate issues regarding snowmobiling. They are upset at the trails they pay for being ruined. And let's not forget that snowmobilers have been establishing and/or maintaining the snowmobile trails since before sxs's and atv's were invented. These trails would NOT be passable in the winter if weren't for the snowmobile community not only grooming them but clearing them of downed trees as well. This year especially, large areas of trails in the northern lower peninsula would be completely impassable due to downed trees if it weren't for snowmobilers, like myself clearing them.

You are playing the role of the authoritarian, contrarian. You constantly throw laws in people's faces to antagonize them-just for the sake of it, all under the guise of educating people or whatever it is you are pretending to do.

Laws are Not written in stone and can be changed-which is what people are talking about here.

If you are not advocating for laws that protect the interests of snowmobilers, then STFU and stay off of snowmobile forums.

The snowmobiling community does Not have a state-level organization representing them anymore. The former MSA merged with an organization which advocates for wheeled vehicles, which is a total conflict of interest..

You personally prove this point very well.
 

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But we also know the reality is people will do what they want no matter what rules are in place. We have rules of the road in our cars that people violate regularly. The other issue if such rules were passed, you will have problems with enforcement. Law enforcement agencies are already stretched thin and can barely provide enough officers for road patrol let alone supplying officers for snowmobile enforcement. With increased low snow years and the popularity of the SxS crowd, you could see this coming. People just want to get out of the house and ride whether it’s a snowmobile or SxS. We appreciate everything you do in Iggy, the best maintained trails in the UP.


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You are an sxs apologist on a snowmobile forum and what you are stating is bs.

The government has zero problem enforcing laws that they want enforced and we pay them to do it through countless taxes including some that are paid to go directly to snowmobile related law enforcement.
 

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Almost just got smoked by some dipshit teenager sliding around on a paved county road that is covered with snow, with my truck. Would not have ended well for him but he didn’t give a shit. Even though he’s the one that came sliding around the corner and almost hit me, I was the one that got the dirty look and middle finger. Awesome.
 

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You are an sxs apologist on a snowmobile forum and what you are stating is bs.

The government has zero problem enforcing laws that they want enforced and we pay them to do it through countless taxes including some that are paid to go directly to snowmobile related law enforcement.
I fear this s x s problem is going to worsen at a quick pace. It's too late for msa to put the genie back in the bottle. This low snow year is only making it worse.
 

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As far as enforcing current laws regarding wheeled vehicles, the government could easily use surveillance equipment to catch wheeled vehicles breaking laws. They could do the same with vehicles damaging private property and causing trail closures..

The problem is that there is No advocacy group for snowmobiles anymore.
 

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As far as enforcing current laws regarding wheeled vehicles, the government could easily use surveillance equipment to catch wheeled vehicles breaking laws. They could do the same with vehicles damaging private property and causing trail closures..

The problem is that there is No advocacy group for snowmobiles anymore.
It would be nearly impossible to identify any ORV from a camera. They don't have any registration numbers on them. A camera wouldn't even be able to see the tiny registration numbers that are on the new snowmobile stickers.

I have yet to see a SXS on the trail this year, but I will say we have problems within our own group. Seen plenty of mounds of snow piled up in the middle of a groomed trail this year from some idiot who thought it was cool to stop and roost.
 
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