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I have to ask - what trail, what area did you encounter these, presumably wheeled vehicles?
This is the problem. The guy who made these comments may be on the msa executive board. I hope he corrects me. He wants to educate us with his vast knowledge and talk down to us. If he would answer my questions about other areas that have trails and how they conduct business, maybe he and others in msa could go get some education and learn a few things.
He gives responses like a engineer or attorney that has very little talent. They talk in circles but never answer the question.
I hope this draws him out and he has the simple ability to answer my questions about Minnesota, Ontario and Quebec.
My comments about msa are not a slight to the hardworking and dedicated people who brush, grade and maintain the trails. My heart breaks for these people who put pride in their job only to watch a wheeled vehicle go through and destroy what they have worked so hard at.
 

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This is the problem. The guy who made these comments may be on the msa executive board.
MSA is now MISORVA. Have been a member of MSA, both family and then later commercial for many years. Joined their Board after they became MISORVA and was elected as an officer this past fall. Also on the Board for the Great Lakes Dual Sporters. Also part of our trail maintenance crew; run a trail grader (summer only), write and manage our grants/paperwork with the State to partake in those activities. Continuously involved at that level for a bit over 20 years.
No need to "draw me out", name is in my signature, email in profile, obviously not hiding. Participated in here for 14 years now.
Also might be involved with a business associated with motorized recreation, but am not here to sell anything.

He wants to educate us with his vast knowledge and talk down to us.
I'm sorry you feel I am "talking down" to you as that is not my intent. You are correct on the education part. My motives are probably different than you are thinking as I'm not tooting my horn or trying to tear something apart. I want all of the user groups to get along. There is unfounded animosity by some towards "the others". Fighting with "them" or even amongst ourselves will not help keep our sport(s) alive and prosperous.

People tend to be upset when their belief is shown to be factually incorrect, so I get that you are upset with me. I hate being wrong as well, still happens.

You were upset at that pickup as you believed they were operating illegally. What you believed was factually incorrect regarding their legal status. You could still be upset with them and that is definitely your prerogative.

If you knew at that time, that they were totally legal, would you still have been upset with them?
If you knew at that point on the ground, that you were privileged to get to share a road that is legally open to street licensed vehicles first and foremost and also the county was generous enough to allow snowmobiles to travel on it, would you still be upset with that pickup?

I hope, now that you know they were legal, that you would answer "no" to both of those questions. I would also hope that if you don't believe the information provided is correct, that you are motivated to do your own research.

Here's the hypothetical situation applied to your encounter. "Snowmobiler" encounters pickup on "trail" and believes pickup is illegal, flips the bird to the pickup and "speeds" by (you did not do this, hypothetical other snowmobiler). Fact is pickup is on county road, driver is a resident out looking for a spot to rabbit hunt. Resident also attends road commission meetings. Mentions how rude and disrespectful those "snowmobilers" are. Road commission votes to not renew authorization for snowmobile trail to use county road. This is fiction, but we have one like it happening in the lower peninsula, the "pickup driver" is the landowner along the county road and has hired an attorney.

If he would answer my questions about other areas that have trails and how they conduct business,
Always willing to learn.

I hope this draws him out and he has the simple ability to answer my questions about Minnesota, Ontario and Quebec.
Snowmobiled: Yes, no, no.
Motorcycle: Yes, no, no.
SxS/ATV: No, no, no.
4x4: Yes, no, no.
 

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This happens in PA too with conflicts on joint use roads. Here in PA we are secondary users of these roads. Lots of snowmobiling people don't understand what is going on when they see those 4x4's on the roads that have nothing but gobs of snow on them and a groomer that had previously made it nice for them is torn up by a 4wd vehicle. It's a shame it happens but here too they are legal on sections of "no winter maintenance" roads.

I too was part of PSSA for 15 years here. Lots of time was spent trying to talk to people about these issues. But lots of people just get pissed off cause they still want those trails and roads limited to them only in the winter. Sorry but not happening is how I told them. And we too have lots of issues with landowners "getting the bird" because they just want to get to their property. The back side of the coin is that we just won't have those trails to use. Shame it happens but that's just about it and especially as our numbers dwindle in users and on the power ladder within the Political organization called Congress.

Steve ridden PA, NY, Ontario, Ohio, and Michigan. I've tried and just got tired of endless battles.
 

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sxs and Jeep’s on winter fire roads I can deal with, but those vehicles should be banned from groomed snowmobile “trails”. In WI we have “routes” that are paved and unpaved roads and “trails” that are trails.
 

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sxs and Jeep’s on winter fire roads I can deal with, but those vehicles should be banned from groomed snowmobile “trails”. In WI we have “routes” that are paved and unpaved roads and “trails” that are trails.
SXS's & ATV's are legal on the National Forest trails in Wi. unless marked, I have 3 but stay off the trails unless I get involved with search & rescue.
 

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SXS's & ATV's are legal on the National Forest trails in Wi. unless marked, I have 3 but stay off the trails unless I get involved with search & rescue.
Are those groomed? I usually don’t get up there in the wintertime, but ride them in the summer on my dual sports.
 

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That must go over like a lead balloon with the sledders , but if it’s legal it has to be respected...but I don’t have to like it
 

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That must go over like a lead balloon with the sledders , but if it’s legal it has to be respected...but I don’t have to like it
According to some of the Groomer operators they claim it doesn't hurt the groomed trails any more than deep lug snowmobile tracks and folks spinning their track.. either way I stay off the groomed trails with our wheelers.
 

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I have to ask - what trail, what area did you encounter these, presumably wheeled vehicles?
I have to ask- what would it take to educate you and msa in this presumably wheeled issue?
If you would seek wisdom and maturity in your quest, I will be happy to oblige you and lead you to the areas that are observing success in this matter.
But as I tell folks if you have a problem, bring a solution.
Dec 15 to March 15 is snowmobile only season. Rest of the year is wheeled vehicle season. Wow this almost sounds too simple to be true. Maybe allow thru April 1 in the u p.
There it is. Feel free fellow snowmobilers to agree or disagree. Msa and Germany valley work for YOU!
 

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Based on what I have read, this legislation wouldn't change much. ORV Routes would still be open to ORV's even if the Route is being groomed as a snowmobile trail. Plus this bill can't stop ORVs and licensed vehicles from using seasonal county roads that are open to year round to ORV'S.

Here's what needs to happen. The state needs to eliminate the snowmobile trails south of Grand Rapids. Our trail pass funds are leasing all that land for maybe 2 rides a year. What a waste of money. I never ride these trails, which are not far from where I live. That wasted money could be used to help fund new snowmobile only trails on state/federal land and stop using snowmobile funds to groom ORV Routes.
 

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I have to ask- what would it take to educate you and msa in this presumably wheeled issue?
Feel free to offer such education.

But as I tell folks if you have a problem, bring a solution.
Dec 15 to March 15 is snowmobile only season. Rest of the year is wheeled vehicle season. Wow this almost sounds too simple to be true. Maybe allow thru April 1 in the u p.
Thank you for a suggested solution.

It's fair to say all want a simple solution. Most do not realize the complexity of the Snowmobile System in place, which makes a simple solution difficult to attain.

Do you acknowledge that many sections of snowmobile trail use county-owned roads in Michigan?
Should those residents then be required to access their home or property only by snowmobile?
 

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I have to ask- what would it take to educate you and msa in this presumably wheeled issue?
If you would seek wisdom and maturity in your quest, I will be happy to oblige you and lead you to the areas that are observing success in this matter.
But as I tell folks if you have a problem, bring a solution.
Dec 15 to March 15 is snowmobile only season. Rest of the year is wheeled vehicle season. Wow this almost sounds too simple to be true. Maybe allow thru April 1 in the u p.
There it is. Feel free fellow snowmobilers to agree or disagree. Msa and Germany valley work for YOU!
Banning ORV'S in the winter will NEVER happen. The past winters hardly justify owning sleds in the LP. All the business in the NLP and UP support both sports. Money is going to drive what is open vs closed. We as snowmobilers are outnumbered by ORVs and its growing everyday. I called a dealer yesterday, because I'm looking to buy an new ATV for the farm. They told me all their ATVS are sold before they ever hits the floor.

Also, a lot of guys use ORV'S for ice fishing and hunting in the winter. There's no easy solution.
 

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Feel free to offer such education.



Thank you for a suggested solution.

It's fair to say all want a simple solution. Most do not realize the complexity of the Snowmobile System in place, which makes a simple solution difficult to attain.

Do you acknowledge that many sections of snowmobile trail use county-owned roads in Michigan?
Should those residents then be required to access their home or property only by snowmobile?
That is where the confusion and conflict originate from as I see it in Michigan. You call everything “trails”. The landowner aspect of accessing their land via roads like fire roads should be designated and labeled “routes”. And travel corridors designed for recreational riding should be designated “trails”. And signage and maps could easily differentiate the two.
 

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Based on what I have read, this legislation wouldn't change much. ORV Routes would still be open to ORV's even if the Route is being groomed as a snowmobile trail. Plus this bill can't stop ORVs and licensed vehicles from using seasonal county roads that are open to year round to ORV'S.
You are absolutely correct.

One of my concerns is if the legislation is passed, some snowmobilers will believe all wheeled traffic will be banned from all snowmobile trails, which will not be correct. That will lead to more angry encounters and more trail loss.
 

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That is where the confusion and conflict originate from as I see it in Michigan. You call everything “trails”. The landowner aspect of accessing their land via roads like fire roads should be designated and labeled “routes”. And travel corridors designed for recreational riding should be designated “trails”. And signage and maps could easily differentiate the two.
Terminology is a big piece of this, you are spot on. The Snowmobile program has both "Trail" and "Route", however the "Route" is only for community connectors (ie through-town roads). Compared to the ORV Program that has Trails and Routes (not perfect, lots of confusion there too, but Routes are roads by definition).

Many in the general riding public, both wheeled and sleds, think of anything lesser maintained than a gravel road as a "trail" when it's actually a road in most cases.

If we use Michigan's legal definition for a road, most snowmobilers would be shocked to learn there are only a select few miles of "trail" that the Snowmobile Program uses and the majority qualify as Routes (roads signed as open), whether that shared road is a county road or a forest road.

Your point has merit for further discussion. I changed my maps a couple years ago to visually differentiate sections of snowmobile trails that were on county roads (lets rider know this may be plowed, may be greater chance to encounter cars, has a different speed limit, etc.). Had not considered that the Snowmobile Program itself could change to identify that. Sounds like a lot of work for the grant sponsors, but it could be one way to truly reach and inform all of the riders.
 

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Banning ORV'S in the winter will NEVER happen. The past winters hardly justify owning sleds in the LP. All the business in the NLP and UP support both sports. Money is going to drive what is open vs closed. We as snowmobilers are outnumbered by ORVs and its growing everyday. I called a dealer yesterday, because I'm looking to buy an new ATV for the farm. They told me all their ATVS are sold before they ever hits the floor.

Also, a lot of guys use ORV'S for ice fishing and hunting in the winter. There's no easy solution.
They have ATV's & SXS's for sale at the dealer close to us.
 
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