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Discussion Starter #1
Went to Houghton Lake for a ride Saturday and the amount of wheeled vehicles destroying the trails was unreal.
There are thousands of miles of UNgroomed, 2 tracks and seasonal roads that are NOT in the groomed trails system, and you think the ATVs will ride on those?-- nope, "let's tear the shit out of the groomed trails". Gotta slide sideways around corners and tear stinking trenches. Where is the MUTUAL COURTESY and respect? They can ride all year, just about anywhere,, and they pick GROOMED sled trails? I don't wanna hear "we have a right" shit,, use your fricken common sense if you have any. (but its apparent they do not). So hoping the "outlawing of wheeled vehicles on any groomed trail in the trail system" gets passed. Tired of spending almost $200 a year on permits for grooming to have idiots tear it up in minutes. WTF.
 

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I have heard this a lot lately. My guess is they are pandemic buyers new to the sport and have no idea what they are doing! Yesterday we encountered 2 lifted trucks going down Trail 3 S of Baldwin. Once they saw us one of the drivers got out and asked me if it was a groomed trail. I told him it was and they respectfully turned around.
 

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All of those SXS sales last spring? Yeah, most of those idiots never owned an ORV before. They’ve screwed us all summer long by going where they shouldn’t and they’re going to be doing it all over again this winter. I’m sure the LEO and CO staffing levels have been increased this year as well to help educate these idiots. All the extra ORV sticker sales should have paid for all of that, right?
 

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yup a sxs already fucked up all the work i did last night. if found the wardens will follow up.
 

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This seems to go in waves. I remember a wave in the late 90s when lift kits, suv's and jacked Tacoma's became big. Hopefully they'll get it out of their system soon.
 

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Went to Houghton Lake for a ride Saturday and the amount of wheeled vehicles destroying the trails was unreal.
There are thousands of miles of UNgroomed, 2 tracks and seasonal roads that are NOT in the groomed trails system, and you think the ATVs will ride on those?
Riders only like to follow markers. Don't matter if they are on tracks or wheels. Rare few that will make up their own "trail" by running unsigned roads.

So hoping the "outlawing of wheeled vehicles on any groomed trail in the trail system" gets passed. Tired of spending almost $200 a year on permits for grooming to have idiots tear it up in minutes. WTF.
The current draft legislation that MISORVA is proposing would not stop wheeled vehicles from using those trails, south of Houghton Lake, that are designated as ORV Routes or are on county roads.
 

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Discussion Starter #7
Riders only like to follow markers. Don't matter if they are on tracks or wheels. Rare few that will make up their own "trail" by running unsigned roads.


The current draft legislation that MISORVA is proposing would not stop wheeled vehicles from using those trails, south of Houghton Lake, that are designated as ORV Routes or are on county roads.
But the SxS that are over 53" wide were driving down the TRAILS, not seasonal roads. I believe the draft legislation does say " no wheeled vehicles on groomed trails, including seasonal roads UNLESS a landowner has no other access point to their property".
Sec.82163 Period from Dec 1st to March 31st annually, a person shall not operate a motor vehicle other than a snowmobile on a trail if both of the following apply: [a] The trail is part of the statewide trail network established under Section 72114 and is designated for snowmobile use. (b) The trail is snow covered and the snow is groomed for snowmobile use.
 

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Found on a trail in the Black Hills in S.D.
2114994

2114995
 

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I was confronted with a 4 passenger SxS on SM-6 between St. Helen and West Branch yesterday while my wife and I were riding two-up. Even though the trail was wide at that location he was really ripping and using pretty much all of it. I pulled as far right as I could and stopped. He slowed a bit but he was still darting some. I instantly wondered how the group of about 10 sleds was going to fare that wasn't far behind me. Of course there were his dual ruts to follow for a few miles after that as well.

I posted about this on the Doo talk board and was told that it was legal and normal.

Thanks,

Ed
 

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Never saw a SxS while riding Lake County the past 3 days, but passed a SUV on Friday and saw truck tracks on a trail that had just been groomed last night.
 

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Never saw a SxS while riding Lake County the past 3 days, but passed a SUV on Friday and saw truck tracks on a trail that had just been groomed last night.
Lake County is bad with the mixed traffic trails. Trucks, SxS, Atv's ripping it up. 2 SxS at the Pine River Bridge Saturday. It will only get worse.
 

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Lake County is bad with the mixed traffic trails. Trucks, SxS, Atv's ripping it up. 2 SxS at the Pine River Bridge Saturday. It will only get worse.
I usually stay away from the ORV Routes, but what I saw was west of M-37 in the Ward Hills area.
 

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Wow, had no idea this kinda shit happens outside of Arizona. Been snowmobiling in Arizona since 1981 and have seen this all the time. We don’t have groomed trails, but years ago my buddy had a groomer that he used to groom trails and that did not stop the idiots from tearing up the trails. It is not uncommon for people to come up to the high country in just summer clothes and then ask, “hey where is a good place to tabogen?” I would always reply, back it up and park in the parking lot and just play in the snow right here, if you go down the trail, you will get stuck and none of us snowmobilers will help you. The response was always, Ok, thank you and they would head down the trail. They would always get buried not far down the road and when we would come upon them, they would always have the balls to ask for help, I would always take pride in stopping and say this is exactly what I told you what would happen, good luck getting out of here and we would take off down the trail. People are just completely inconsiderate, selfish and just plain stupid. I’m sure with this whole Covid thing there has got to be a ton of newbies that have absolutely no clue about anything and hope that it gets back to a more normal status in time. Sorry to hear this shit is happening.
 

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Wow, had no idea this kinda shit happens outside of Arizona. Been snowmobiling in Arizona since 1981 and have seen this all the time. We don’t have groomed trails, but years ago my buddy had a groomer that he used to groom trails and that did not stop the idiots from tearing up the trails. It is not uncommon for people to come up to the high country in just summer clothes and then ask, “hey where is a good place to tabogen?” I would always reply, back it up and park in the parking lot and just play in the snow right here, if you go down the trail, you will get stuck and none of us snowmobilers will help you. The response was always, Ok, thank you and they would head down the trail. They would always get buried not far down the road and when we would come upon them, they would always have the balls to ask for help, I would always take pride in stopping and say this is exactly what I told you what would happen, good luck getting out of here and we would take off down the trail. People are just completely inconsiderate, selfish and just plain stupid. I’m sure with this whole Covid thing there has got to be a ton of newbies that have absolutely no clue about anything and hope that it gets back to a more normal status in time. Sorry to hear this shit is happening.
Not to get side track to much, did you have vintage cats and use to ride during the winter in northern AZ?
 

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But the SxS that are over 53" wide were driving down the TRAILS, not seasonal roads. I believe the draft legislation does say " no wheeled vehicles on groomed trails, including seasonal roads UNLESS a landowner has no other access point to their property".
Sec.82163 Period from Dec 1st to March 31st annually, a person shall not operate a motor vehicle other than a snowmobile on a trail if both of the following apply: [a] The trail is part of the statewide trail network established under Section 72114 and is designated for snowmobile use. (b) The trail is snow covered and the snow is groomed for snowmobile use.
** Note I am NOT advocating for UTVs to ride groomed snowmobile trails **

Regarding use of the term "Trails", Snowmobile Trail = shared road. All of the "Snowmobile Trails" south of Houghton Lake are on County Roads or Forest Roads on State Land. Most of those are also part of the ORV system and designated as ORV Routes. The sections of Forest Roads that are not designated as ORV Routes are separately designated as open to ORVs by the DNR; those Forest Roads are also default-open to street legal wheeled vehicles.

Seasonal Road = County Road (seasonal means no money spent to maintain in winter, but still same vehicles allowed)
County Road receives federal funding and is federally required to allow street legal vehicles. The State is not going to restrict a county road from legal, licensed, wheeled vehicles.
USFS Land, this law would not affect, Feds have a different set of rules or put another way, Feds do not adhere to "State laws".
Private Land, same deal, State can't regulate whom the landowner allows on their own land; however this is sort of a moot point since the private land/trail lease usually only includes snowmobile access.

Draft Legislation (version I have is "07217'20 Draft 2") has this important set of exceptions:

2) Subsection (1) does not apply under any of the following circumstances:
(a) If the motor vehicle is being used for emergency or law enforcement purposes.
(b) If the portion of the snowmobile trail on which the motor vehicle is operated is a crossing with a highway or street or a trail where operation of the motor vehicle is authorized.
(c) If the trail segment where the motor vehicle is operated is designated for use of both snowmobiles and motor vehicles of that type.
(d) If and to the extent that the department waives the prohibition for department-sponsored events or other circumstances as determined by the director or the director's designee.

Also note that "motor vehicle" is the term in the current draft. That means no groomers or trail support equipment unless the DNR Director makes an exception (see item "d" above).

I believe most do not understand the complexity of our snowmobile system and the wide variety of rules and ownerships in place to make what we have, happen.

Honest question - are you aware that USFS already has wheeled vehicle seasonal restrictions in place for some snowmobile trails and if so, have you ever heard of it being enforced during snow season? It's been in place for more than 10 years. I know of lots of people cited on USFS land for being on the wrong road with the wrong wheeled vehicle but only in non-snow conditions.
There's one or two current threads complaining of wheeled vehicles that were on sections of snowmobile trail that are on USFS land that have those seasonal restrictions. There's active law enforcement in that area, I encounter them just about every trip through there in the winter. Not seen or heard or know of any citations and the rule has been in place for years. If there are citations, it's clearly not stopping more "violators". Fed tickets are pretty steep too.
USFS is sort of a "both ways" example. They show how to do what is being asked, that being restricting which vehicles are used on a road under their jurisdiction; and we see the results, still plenty of cars/trucks/etc being used on those sections.
 

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The current draft legislation that MISORVA is proposing would not stop wheeled vehicles from using those trails, south of Houghton Lake, that are designated as ORV Routes or are on county roads.
I thought the reason for forming MISORVA was to come up with common sense rules between ORV's and sleds? I get it a trail on a seasonal road they would have no say in keeping a licensed vehicle off but why not close them to ORVs Dec - March?
 

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I thought the reason for forming MISORVA was to come up with common sense rules between ORV's and sleds?
Advocating for both groups is a high priority for MISORVA.

I get it a trail on a seasonal road they would have no say in keeping a licensed vehicle off but why not close them to ORVs Dec - March?
They can't close the County Roads to ORVs. County could do so by changing their ordinance. Keep in mind a SxS can be made street legal, meaning no longer an ORV, so even IF an ORV was excluded from a County Road then a plated SxS would still be legal. That used to be a far fetched idea of plating SxS but I've definitely seen more of them.

** Again - I am not advocating for SxS on groomed snowmobile trails **
 

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In Maine you can ride a SxS on groomed trails IF you have tracks on it and have bought a snowmobile registration for it.
A lot of the snowmobile clubs around here use SxS to groom trails and do up keep and clearing of trails.
 
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