[wallyuwl]

Time for new carbides on the sleds. 2016 Polaris Rush Pro- S and 2014 Indy SP. Both 600 cc, 121" tracks, no studs.

Riding is in northern NE Wisconsin (northern Oconto County and surrounding areas). These areas have a lot of winding wooded trails and the occasional lake or logging road trail. The main concern is darting on the railroad grade trail that is sort of the highway most of the other trails branch from. It gets a lot of use, speeds are fairly high, it is narrower than a road or logging road trail, and often the trail is elevated 15 feet or more above the surrounding forest. Depending on the route you might go 50+ miles on it (more typical is 10 to 20). So I don't like darting in these circumstances and it is prevalent.

I decided on the Stud Boy Deuce to help with the darting (the Bergstrom triple points were just too $$$). I am deciding between 6" and 4.5". I have never had dual carbides before, so not sure if they make steering harder? In the past I have used 6" single Woodys and steering effort is fine. Both riders, including me, are about 260 lbs. and supposedly over 200# the 6" is recommended even w/ a short track and no studs, but not sure how/if the dual runners effect that.

Thoughts on 6" vs 4.5"?

Also I will probably shim the skis, so I am open to suggestions on a good shim kit for these sleds

 

[too slow]

Pretty hard to beat a set of stud boy deuce bars. 4.5'' would probably be fine with no studs, 6'' if some studs. Their like having power steering. Woodys makes dual carbides to, but imo after running their 6'' and 8'' doolies, and slim jims, their not for me. Neither have a good bite when riding at a faster pace.

 

[fourh-ds]

I would go with the 4.5, for the fear of the 6 inch being enough to stop you at road crossings without studs. Carbides hit the hot top and the track spins on the ice.

 

[too slow]

As far as shim kits? i know of none. I've cut out pieces of plastic from old dirt bike side covers and use them.

 

[Liggett]

I'm pondering the same question. My new to me '16 SB 600 came to me with no studs but now it has 96. It has almost new OEM-style stock carbides that I'm thinking I'll try out first. Too Slow turned me on to Stud Bow Duce Bars and the 6" worked great on my studded '14 800 Adventure. Don't know if I should try the same on the new sled.
You can buy shims direct from Bergstrom or use pieces of left-over Hyfax as many on here do. Just do a search for ski shims.

 

[Rakrem]

I’m a woodys product fan but 15 years ago I bought my first set of studboy shapers and have never looked back. They just work the best for me. I tend to go more aggressive with length of carbide but that’s me. I have no problem with steering being a bit on the heavy side. I want to turn ! You can adjust the heavy feel out of it if you know how to play with suspension settings.. read your manual ( many don’t) I ran 10” woodys comp carbide on all my previous sleds and loved it. My go to bar in shaper is 7.5 with proper ski weight. My new assault 146 unstuded handles incredible! Minimum steering effort.

 

[SHOOT2KILL2]

Woodys Navigators...

Navigator™ Ski Protector | Woody's Traction (woodystraction.com)

 

[wallyuwl]

Pretty hard to beat a set of stud boy deuce bars. 4.5'' would probably be fine with no studs, 6'' if some studs. Their like having power steering.

So steering effort is reduced, unchanged, or increased with dual runners vs single carbides?

I guess the crux is: we are heavier riders, which usually necessitates a longer carbide. But it is a 121" track no studs which would usually mean a shorter carbide, but mostly narrow winding wooded trails which would necessitate a little longer carbide to turn better. 6" singles are what I have typically used and been fine.

 

[too slow]

Every sled i've ridden setup properly with deuce bars has less effort, and minimal darting at low speeds. The faster you ride with these any noticeable darting disappears. I rode trails all over in quebec with the deuce bars, and they are less tiring at the end of a long day than a single bar runner. Like any runner to get the most from them, the skis need to be shimmed. I can tell you they bite pretty good in turns at speed unlike the woodys dual runner systems. Surprised your track is being run un-studded. I wouldn't ride without studs on any sled. Its just way safer having them, plus imo you can never get the sled set up well enough if both ends are not equally balanced out in the traction dept.

 

[Rakrem]

Ya, I never used to ride without studs for all the right reason yrs back but my riding location and style has changed where I’m always in deeper or pretty loose snow conditions 90% of the time. Plus running the longer(1.6 and up) lug height the studs are getting just too long ..

 

[Mag6240]

9” Stud Boy Deuce, I like a longer carbide as well. They do lose the edge over time, but I ran a set for 12,000 miles on my XCR Axys Switchback. They still turn really good, but I have a new set on the bench for that sled.

 

[Rakrem]

9” Stud Boy Deuce, I like a longer carbide as well. They do lose the edge over time, but I ran a set for 12,000 miles on my XCR Axys Switchback. They still turn really good, but I have a new set on the bench for that sled.

I believe it! 18,000 on my Yamaha with 7.5 shapers...sled did see good conditions all it’s life but it’s crazy.

 

[sleeping_dragon]

Every sled i've ridden setup properly with deuce bars has less effort, and minimal darting at low speeds. The faster you ride with these any noticeable darting disappears. I rode trails all over in quebec with the deuce bars, and they are less tiring at the end of a long day than a single bar runner. Like any runner to get the most from them, the skis need to be shimmed. I can tell you they bite pretty good in turns at speed unlike the woodys dual runner systems. Surprised your track is being run un-studded. I wouldn't ride without studs on any sled. Its just way safer having them, plus imo you can never get the sled set up well enough if both ends are not equally balanced out in the traction dept.

Studs arent really necessary in Northern WI or the UP.There is typically plenty of snow and no crazy off camber icy hills that I hear about in the eastern states.

 

[too slow]

Studs arent really necessary in Northern WI or the UP.There is typically plenty of snow and no crazy off camber icy hills that I hear about in the eastern states.

No wind driven bare icy lakes to cross? We usually have icy corners much of the season. The hills are only one part of it. Even riding in quebec it can be similar depending on the season.

 

[favoritos]

So steering effort is reduced, unchanged, or increased with dual runners vs single carbides?

I guess the crux is: we are heavier riders, which usually necessitates a longer carbide. But it is a 121" track no studs which would usually mean a shorter carbide, but mostly narrow winding wooded trails which would necessitate a little longer carbide to turn better. 6" singles are what I have typically used and been fine.

There is a long list of variables in selecting carbides and you mention quite a few already.
Carbide length and type are big, but they rely on the other variables too.
Rider preference
Track length and lug type
Rider size is a factor. I'd also add that setup can make smaller carbides effective with big riders. (It's all about the bite)
Sled type and setup are huge factors.
Trail and snow conditions are worth considering. Keep in mind that you are likely aiming for carbides that work for the larger portion of your riding time.
Carbide wear is a factor and it can change fast in junk.
Steering effort is relative to a lot of the previous factors. Singles tend to require more effort without any other change. It's because they are biting. There is a downside to great grip with singles too. They grip whatever is under the ski. Smooth flat trails, mashed potatoes, bare ice, or rutted hard pack all make a difference. Which of those conditions do you see most?

I use quite a few different carbide types during the season. I also swap skis and change setup for conditions. I use a variety of goals for setup. Early season, I want durability and use lighter steering. Big, half worn out wide double carbides fit that bill. (Double down carbides take abuse, turn, and last well.) Mid season changes a lot with snow, grooming, and traffic. I like singles if conditions are perfect. (It's rare in our area.) I use doubles like Doolies when darting is a factor. The grip is ok, and wear is good. My late season choice is deuce bar carbides. They do a lot of things well. The have decent grip, decent wear, and help with reducing darting.

I like deuce bar carbides. I consider them as a "hybrid" carbide. They sorta act like singles and sorta like doubles.
There are a couple items to look at if you are thinking deuce bar. Keel profile can be a factor. They use a double shaper bar profile for the base. There is no flat host plate. Deep and narrow keel skis will have a higher steering effort and aggressive feel. You will notice those factors when skis get good bite. They are more prone to darting and higher effort when you get into those conditions.
If you go that route, try the shorter 4.5 version. You will have more predictable handling with basic setup.

 

[Liggett]

9” Stud Boy Deuce, I like a longer carbide as well. They do lose the edge over time, but I ran a set for 12,000 miles on my XCR Axys Switchback. They still turn really good, but I have a new set on the bench for that sled.

Wow. 12,000 on your deuce bars! Not trying to hijack the OP's thread, but you've got me wondering if I should look at 9" deuce bars vs. the 6" ones I was thinking of for my 2016 Pro S. How many studs do you have in the XCR? I only have 96 since it's a 600, but I like it to go where I point it.

 

[Mag6240]

Wow. 12,000 on your deuce bars! Not trying to hijack the OP's thread, but you've got me wondering if I should look at 9" deuce bars vs. the 6" ones I was thinking of for my 2016 Pro S. How many studs do you have in the XCR? I only have 96 since it's a 600, but I like it to go where I point it.

Mine is a 136, with no studs, no shims, stock skis. I remember one of my best riding buds telling me "That's way too much carbide for the Axys". Well, maybe it is for some, but for me and my riding style, where I ride, and the conditions, they just work. A handful of guys I ride with have switched to these, (After their stock XCR Matryx carbides didn't last 400 miles on a tough conditions weekend) and everyone has liked them. Now, all these guys are on 136" sleds (Not sure of studs if any), so maybe the 6" will be enough on the 120" shorty track.

 

[sleeping_dragon]

No wind driven bare icy lakes to cross? We usually have icy corners much of the season. The hills are only one part of it. Even riding in quebec it can be similar depending on the season.

Ive never had a problem.
Race sleds yes I run ice piks/chisels but the tracks and suspensions these days get great traction.The rush and rush/axys chassis will even lift the skis on bare ice if you reach back and soften the shock enough.
Ive been riding 48 years so I dont get nervous about much.The only sleds that were sketchy that I remember were steel cleated track with no studs on ice.

 

[too slow]

Ive never had a problem.
Race sleds yes I run ice piks/chisels but the tracks and suspensions these days get great traction.The rush and rush/axys chassis will even lift the skis on bare ice if you reach back and soften the shock enough.
Ive been riding 48 years so I dont get nervous about much.The only sleds that were sketchy that I remember were steel cleated track with no studs on ice.

I learned on sleds that weren't studded, or had carbide runners...just a 1/2 lug track if that, and steel round bars for runners with steel skis. Never took a chitter, but had some interesting moments. One day i rode with some snowmobile guys after they asked me to tag along. Boy did i get a lesson in traction, and control. These guys were all studded. All i had was a 76 5000 eltigre with a metal cleated track, and round bar skags. We crossed a local pond that was bare ice. Those guys laughed their butt off at me doing helicopters on the ice trying to make it to the other shore. I never gave them the pleasure of not flipping the sled. Once back on the trails i kept up. My next sled got studs, and so did everyone after that. All i can say was a major major improvement. Felt i could do no wrong.

 

[wallyuwl]

No wind driven bare icy lakes to cross? We usually have icy corners much of the season. The hills are only one part of it. Even riding in quebec it can be similar depending on the season.

All the lakes and rivers are snow covered where I go, maybe with the occasional 8 foot wide plowed section (for ice fishers' trucks) to cross. In the woods usually corners are not icy much, either snow or snirt (later in the season).