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What I see in the future.

3144 Views 51 Replies 14 Participants Last post by  ckf
I was sitting here pondering an idea the last couple of days about the following thoughts that I had. :doh:

I would really think that it would help the area out significantly if the clubs all submitted grooming schedules to each other. This would make it far easier to coordinate the grooming of chronic bad area's. If the clubs were overlapping by a bit it would help rule out the bad area's where they meet. I think the reason for this is that I'm sure the groomer operators have a concern about if a neighboring club's groomer maybe coming the other way and a logjam may occur. This is very important in area's around Corridor 19. With really no room to manuever the groomers past one and other, you could end up stuck real easy. Pine River forest is another as well as Polly's Crossing area. Could you imagine being in a groomer coming down the Hell Ride Hill in PRSF and seeing a Tucker coming up? That sure would suck! :banghead:

Maybe starting a pinned thread on this forum would give the clubs an option to try this. It would really benefit the riders as for trip planning. With the high price of fuel people are going to want to know where the good and bad are, so they can plan to avoid those areas. With having some sort of posted schedule I think that it would kind of even out the trail system condition's. People would have positive info in hand to plan with, instead of just guessing where will be good and bad.

Imagine if you know the schedule, you could plan nice loops that would be consistant as far as trail conditions. It would provide you with alternatives to bypass the heavily traveled area's on your trip back. :div20: This is really going to come into play on C-19 as having lost the covered bridge in Ossipee. Know if you want to go to the Castle for a day trip, you will have to park Truck/trailer at WLSP, ride out by trailblazers, proceed south to Polly's Crossing, and go thru Transformer Hill area to approach the Castle from the south. The past years you could go one way up and the other way back. Now the same trail mileage will have twice the traffic. :frech32:

With the ongoing development of the Coyote district over the next year or so, you could utilize Pine River Forest to Green mountain to Heath Bog area to Lake Ossipee and tie into SOS and OVSC trail systems at the lake edge. You could also head south down to SLSC trail system towards Wakefield or Province Lake then down towards Miss Wakefield dinner towards Lake Winnie and up to Castle or Moultonboro and back thru the Sandwicj Sidehillers trail system and on to Wonalancet. :luxhello: :luxhello:

As you can see, the trip options are going to be endless. If clubs posted suggested different trip and trail options you could provide for a more balanced area to ride. Maybe even to go as far as rating certain area's as far as time or experience level terrain. This would help out with famly and newbies to the sport. I know that parts of the Green Mountain area and Mount Whittier are going to provide some people with a white knuckkle experience if they are not prepared or expecting it. Vista and picnic suggestions would also help the riders. Maybe list where the clubs snack shacks and what the hours of operations are. :wut60:

If the clubs use the same type of info system as each other such as mileage to next junction, or perhaps to a destination I feel more people will explore these fine club trails. This would help with the overburdened area's that people keep going back over for fear of getting lost or not finding services. :dunno:

We could use this pinned thread idea to maybe help the Lake Ossipee area clubs get the info out on current events that are being scheduled or if a trail is closed or groomer down etc. If help is needed it would provide an area for the clubs to respond for requests for help etc. :help:

The following clubs will really gain from this type of working system: Mountain Meadows, Ossipee Valley, Sandwich Sidehillers, Scrub Oak Scramblers, Wolfboro, and the Seven Lake Club. With this consortium of clubs you have to see the incredible potential for the area! Where it is hard to find volunteers this would go to providing a manpower resource between the above clubs. :no_bashing:


Freedom rider
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Thank you for the support and the great work with the OVSC web site on being able to give concise and timely grooming reports. This is one of the reasons why I chose to become a member and be involved with OVSC. There is a strong showing of commitment by the people that are getting involved there.

I think that the clubs will find that they will recieve more support if there is more infomation being diseminated to the riding public. There is a little of the explorer in all of us out there. With accurate trail conditions, good signage, and maps people will more apt to come back to an area in the near future. This has a trickle down effect on the surrounding clubs and local economy. People are more apt to convert from daytripping to weekend trips or vacations in the area if this concept bears fruit.

Another idea is for the local clubs to pick a trail in there system to highlite as a destination. Such as picnic area, scenic vista, or maybe historical landmark. This would allow it to be a new adventure each trip out there. The modern snowmobiler now consists of not just a 30 something year old male with a 900 cc. lake ripper, but more to the effect of an average family with spouse and children, who want reasonable entertainment for their moderate investment. Getting to partake in a sport that allows you to go out into nature and pristine spots that you would never be able to access otherwise, is a valuable learning tool for todays children.

I am a firm believer in having a strong Junior members program as the children of today are the club volunteers and leaders of tomorrow. If you start them young I feel that you will find the return rate will increase over time. I myself, became heavily involved in a local club when I was 14 years old. It was very rewarding going to the meetings and activities and being treated as an a equal, not just a dumb kid. My friends and I never would pass up the opertunity to go on a trail work party even if it was just to be able to learn something about the woods. The older generations always provided us with something to learn or a story or something to laugh about. OVSC is truely blessed to have David Bowles, Charlie Tupper, and a few others who enjoy going out and working on the trails. You never hear the line I'm to tired or sorry don't have time. You are more apt to hear is, what needs to be done or when do you want to do it? This type of camraderie is a valuable tool in development of young mind and teaching responsibilty to the future leaders of our society. A pat on the back or an atta boy will go along way with a youngster.

John, I feel that OVSC has made incredible strides over the last couple of years. I am seeing people responding to the desire for change in their trail systems. The responce to using the web, as a tool, to get the message out is a tremendous asset for the local club community. You are able to reach more people, much faster and more accurately than in the past. If these ideas in this thread start to have an impact on how the local clubs work together, I see great, great things happening in the near future. :div20:

Just my two cents worth,

Freedom Rider
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The problem with ripping up the rails is that the corridor land would revert back to the original owners. Instead of having just the DOT to deal with like the present, you would have to deal with probably at least 100 different owners. This is the exact issue that happened at Twin Mnt. and Amc fiasco. When the rails were not in place to be used actively the land use changed and that was the basis for the Amc challenge in court.

In the next town to me in Southern NH. the same thing happened. The land was deeded to town as conservation and the rails came up. The local farmer took it to court. The court said that the land reverts back to the original plots and the town had to pay the farmer a couple of hundred thousand dollars for legal expences and damages. The farmer now own's the land and posted it. This rail bed was a very active snowmobile trail for many , many years. It was maintained by Grant and Aid funding and the local club. Now you can't even access it by foot let alone sled. There are gates and jersey barriers stacked two and three high. It eliminated access to peoples woodlots and made alot of enemy's.

We will just have to appreciate what we have for now. Something, even if rough, is better than nothing. There is a way to eliminate some of the trail on tracks but you would need alot of manpower to cut the trail. The Bureau of Trails doesn't have the time nor budget for this at current with the loss of covered bridge and major work at Cog rd. and Bear Notch rd. It would be a major undertaking that would have to involve a couple of clubs and a lot of volunteers. I don't think that there is enough committed volunteers to do this project the way it would have to be done. The proper way would be to raise money and sub contract the work out. Some decent sized bridges would have to be built etc; and a lot of leg work.

It sure would be a great three year plan huh? With input and people helping out it could be done but it would be a lot of work.

Thank you for the input though, as this was the intention of this thread in the first place. Maybe form a consortium to look furthur into trying to due this. Raise funds with local business's, federal grants (alternative trans.) , and Heritage Rec. Trails grants. Let me know if you guys are interested in trying to start some thing like this and I will look into what the process will entail.

Thanks for the input,

Freedom Rider
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Amen Skip,
Thanks for the encouraging words.

The issue on land ownership is a very sensative one. It all ahs to depend on how the land was originally taken. The railtrail that I speak of was an approved rail to trail project thru the State and Federal goverment. It went thru all of the court process and the town lost each and every time. It is hard pressed to use eminent domain when it already probably been used once and now a second time for the same piece of land. The State courts felt strong enough about it that they made the town deed them the land, pay all court and lawyer fee's, and monetary damages. This was all only relating to one quarter mile stretch by one hundred feet wide ROW. Can you imagine the effort it would take to try this process over the twenty or so mile stretch of Corridor 19. If you look at the widening project and putting in rail between I93 over in Windham the money being spent and wetlands being replicated is obscene and thats for only under twenty miles and the state already own's the land.

There are some options available to bypass the section of tracks that are the worst. It is a definite problematic area from Route 41 to Town line Trailers. I would bet that with 25-50,000 dollars you could bypass that whole stretch while not touching the tracks. There is strong opposition to the removal of rail by the Putt Putt club. This is why you still see the tracks from Wakefield to Wolfboro in place. They were involved in helping State get the easements from B and M and building the rec trail use of it in the first place. It is a very controversal subject as stated by a local muckity muck I spoke with about five years ago.

The biggest hurdle if the rails came out would be who takes care of the right of way? Gates, law enforcement,and illegal dumping. The states resources are stretched to the max already. The rails are a deterrent to the summer time traffic on the rails somewhat now.

At least this thread is a productive avenue to get the things that effect our sport out in the light! Hopefully people will become enlightened to what it takes to keep us moving in a forward direction. Keep the thoughts coming in!

My two cents worth,

Freedom Rider

I am looking forward to meeting you at the first meeting and we can throw around some more ideas. You seem up to the task to try to help with input to make this area, a much better area.
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Originally posted by whtmtn@Sep 15 2005, 08:48 AM
Also discussed was the filling of the rails with some media (gravel, woodchips, etc)that would not affect the ability of the use of small rail going equipment. This would keep the rails intact and still help with the ridability and grooming of the line. We will revisit this idea and hopefully a C19 upgrade can happen in the near future. Personally I think this would be the easiest and quickest and less expensive way to improve C19. Any Ideas are alway appreciated.
Trails Bureau did move the trail at the switchs off the tracks to land adjacent running behind McDonalds last season.
People that didn't pay attention to the signs and did run the switchs got into trouble. Be prepared for the reroute again this season.
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The discussion on this approach was a short one as it would make it easier for access for atv and off road trucks to go down rail line. Also it would speed up decomposition of the existing rail ties. This would becaused by by the retention and inability of the tracks to drain and dry. If wood chips were put in and froze solid, you would have a sheet of ice in between rails. There would be no way to get snow to stick to this. Having the Tuckers grooming this would provide for an exciting time trying to keep from sliding off railbed and into woods.

As far as the issue regarding the switches, that problem has been resolved. :luxhello: If people read the signs they won't have to go over switches. It just means that the speed that people travel will have to be decreased so they read the signs and stay on bypass trail. :doh:
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Originally posted by machz1@Sep 15 2005, 09:04 AM
i think if you guys look at your posts, your answering your own questions. why dont they post there schedule? well can you imagine if every sledder going on a trip knew when and where they were grooming, the resulting traffic jam behind the groomer would look like an L.A freeway during rush hour! the groomer operators work long and hard hours now just to have some yahoo come along and rip it up and im sure they dont want to advertise just when or where there goin to be.n its really a good thought i just see alot of problems with it. jmo
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The concept that is being suggested is not to post times of grooming just the day schedule. For example, Sat., Sunday, and Wed. This way if you were planing trip to Castle, you know to take c-19 to Castle and maybe Coyote district in the future to return as the trail conditions will have deteriorated on c-19 by afternoon. At least you would know when the PRSF would have been groomed last.

I would highly doubt that people would try to follow groomer at the whoping speed of 3-6 miles per hour. Also, the Corridor gets groomed late at night not during the day time. ( state will not pay for daytime grooming on weekends!)
Originally posted by SHORTFUSED900@Sep 16 2005, 03:42 PM
Remember, it has to be a "posted" trail to ride, or you must have written landowner's permission to be on property not your own. Basic New Hampshire OHRV laws!

While a number of people do shortcut the powerlines, it is not a recognized or maintained part of the trail system. Fish & Game will not let you go if you claim that you thought it was OK 'cause someone on a website posted that PSNH had a letter somewhere granting permission.

Yeah, I know, the fish cops have been pretty lenient about that section of trail so far.....but all it will take is one fool to generate adjacent landowner complaints and all bets are off.

Better to let the OVSC/Coyote guys check out the situation and see if this portion of trail can be legally brought into the fold, than to let everyone think it is OK or sanctioned to use this section....

Our sport has enough detractors out there, lets be safe & not sorry!

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You are 100% correct Skip.
Last season the local police were prosicuting people in Madison for riding the powerlines above the Pine Tree power plant in Tamworth. This section of trail had been used and even groomed with no permision for many years prior. The police didn't care about the what if's or what about before's, and wrote citations out.
They were really out up there after ice storm when railbed was impassable and people were using powerlines to get north and south. They caught people cutting fences to get around the posted pieces of land under powerlines. This is why the Madison police had such a visable presence up there.
Originally posted by SHORTFUSED900@Sep 16 2005, 05:13 PM

I did not mean to imply that you were trying to lead anyone astray. From reading your informative posts, I know that you are well informed and would not encourage anyone to violate OHRV rules.

Unfortunately, there are others who frequent this site who would take the advice you were giving and twist it into an excuse to use this area improperly. I am sure, with your experience, that you are probably all too familiar with the minority of sledders I am talking about.

That said, I think your suggestuion on checking the status of this particular area is advice well given, and I think the right people are now aware of your great idea!

I have visited this site for a number of years, even used an alternative identity for awhile, but I was disappointed in some of the routine bashing going on. However, the threads started by members of the OVSC and Coyotes have really peaked my interest and I spend way too much (enjoyable) time here now!

And let me close by thanking you for the highly useful information you post for all of us to peruse!

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:div20: :div20: classy responce by all in regards to the constructive remarks and ideas.

the problem in this general area is there are three utilities: Unitil, PSNH, and NH CO-Op. This and not to mention Guilford Railroad and North coast? ( railroad in the area of ossipee agg.) Many many players involved.
Originally posted by ckf@Sep 17 2005, 08:33 PM
A way around the RR bed is always being looked at. If we can do a little each year as funding allows than I think we have made a big difference in the trail structure. As you know the state only funds 50% on equipment. OVSC spends about $4000/ Year with membership income of $4000-$6000/ year. It's hard to do more than that. Little steps are better than not moving forward at all.

As for a snow train I don't think it would work at this time. There is no public transportation once they get to the Valley. In the future that may not be the case.
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As many of you can see, the numbers don't lie and the clubs are not sitting on their hands. With the type of system in place currently, there are few alternative available to speak of. I know that our club,OVSC, is trying to bring change in the area on a tiered level. But there need to be more helpers and a diverse input from you, the snowmobiler, to help us with this.

There are some pressing issues that we are currently dealing with. Among them is what to do about the covered Bridge in West Ossipee being closed. Not knowing is slowing up grooming allocations and alloted hours to be used to cover from increased trafic on C-19. The grants for winter maintenance are due in Concord,Nh. on Oct. 7th after being reviewed by County Director. This leaves it very hard to plan and estimate grooming hours for this area. Is there going to be a new trail trying to utilize New DOT bridge? Will this new trail have to be cut and maintained by the local club or state? With all of this happening you can see why there is so much work on the table. If the trail to Castle out of White Lake State Park is truly gone as it stands now, the traffic in Wonalancet will increase dramaticly this season. This will becaused by daytrip traffic useing parking area at White Lake. With the shortage of truck and trailer parking already this doesn't bode well for the upkeep of the trails to and from Wonalancet.

Corridor 19 will see an increased amount of traffic trying to go south to Polly's Crossing to get to Lake Winni. and the Castle area that was never there before. The only other way is thru Wonalancet to Sandwich to Lake Winni. I forsee new levels of people enjoying what the area has to offer but the job of keeping up the level of quality trails will spread the already thin resources to a new level. Your continued support of OVSC and other local clubs is the only way this will let our region survive and excell.

Freedom Rider
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That was more along the lines of my intended post. To let the word out after the grooming was done on a daily basis. I am truly sorry if I confused anybody as to my intent with my post. Thank you for the great input!!!!
Freedom Rider :banana:
Originally posted by SHORTFUSED900@Sep 14 2005, 09:03 AM
You are right about the tracks needing to be removed.

The latest track study, now several years old, stated that it would cost in excess of a million dollars a mile to bring the tracks between Ossipee and Conway back up to passenger car/freight standards.

The reintroduction of passenger rail service over this line is a pipedream kept alive my a handful of local politicians catering to the tree huggers.

To rip up these tracks and make 19 a decent trip would obvioulsy induce more sled traffic to the area, hence more tourist dollars.

And this area needs to do all that it can to promote tourism.

But as long as we keep re-electing the crew that we do.....oh well, we reap what we sow!

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I was doing some research at Statehouse and came across this Senate Bill.
I thought that it was an interesting read. It does show that they are trying to move forward with the rail upgrade and modernization. Only time will tell if it comes to fruitation. At least,we, as a group of snowmobilers will be prepared for worst case ahead of time. I found it funny, though, with it having been signed by Govenor but no hoopla in the media..



02/24/05 0324s





AN ACT relative to the Conway Branch railroad.

SPONSORS: Sen. Kenney, Dist 3; Rep. McConkey, Carr 3



This bill requires the department of transportation to research funding sources for rebuilding and modernizing the state-owned portion of the Conway Branch railroad.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Explanation: Matter added to current law appears in bold italics.

Matter removed from current law appears [in brackets and struckthrough.]

Matter which is either (a) all new or (b) repealed and reenacted appears in regular type.

02/24/05 0324s

05-1036 06/10


In the Year of Our Lord Two Thousand Five

AN ACT relative to the Conway Branch railroad.

Be it Enacted by the Senate and House of Representatives in General Court convened:

196:1 Conway Branch Railroad; Study of Federal Funds Availability. The department of transportation shall research the availability of federal funds to fund the rehabilitation tasks as outlined in the report of the Conway Branch railroad line feasibility study that was conducted pursuant to 2003, 298:4 on the state-owned portion of the Conway Branch rail line. The department may consult with other state and federal agencies, the regional planning agencies, the New Hampshire congressional delegation, and other interested parties. The department shall report the results of the study to the president of the senate, the speaker of the house of representatives, and the governor on or before June 30, 2006.

196:2 Effective Date. This act shall take effect upon its passage.

(Approved: June 30, 2005)

(Effective Date: June 30, 2005)

Freedom Rider
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Well, I feel that the past weekend was a great start to the new era of snowmobiling in the Lake Ossipee area.

When I started the topic of "What I see in the future" I was hoping to make the clubs in the area take that first step to working together. This past weekend at the 1st annual OVSC Jamboree we were able take that first step. It was more like a leap than a step.

The area clubs were well represented with displays and memberships. There was a great amount of camraderie between the clubs. Some ideas with communication about grooming and trails was discussed between the clubs and I think the outcome will be very positive for the sledding public in the area.

I would like to personally thank The Scrub Oak Scramblers for bringing their Tucker 1000 and drag to our event. They set up a very impressive display as well and seemed to have a great time while doing it. This is what it's all about. FUN!

A thank you goes out to Seven Lakes for hauling their vending trailer and merchandise and being very sociable as always. They seemed to always have a big smile on their faces.

Thank you goes out to Pathfinder for driving three plus hours each way to set up a display for Pathfinder tours and the Pittsburg Ridgerunners. I really enjoyed seeing the Moose Antlers as well. I wish you much success with your raffle to raise money for the trails. I would like to comment on Pathfinders signature."I have seen the enemy and they are us!" I think after this past weekend we could put a new spin on that. "I have seen my friends and they are us!" A big thank you to you for helping us along with some of our ideas and being a great friend.

Thank you to Wolfboro for being so generous with letting us hijack your lead volunteer, Tom Willard and family. They were a key to the success of our first safety class. I know with them having to be tied up at the safety class, your mini sled raffle probably did not have the results that you had hoped for. I know what a tremendous asset they were to us on Sat. and can only think how much they help you guys.

Thank you to the Mountain Meadow Riders for coming an setting up a display. People seemed to be very well received by your volunteers at your display.

Unfortunately, Sandwich Side Hillers and the Moultonboro clubs could not attend due to prior commitments. Next year we will give more notice. (promise)!

Thank you to the NH Fish and Game or sending a representative to teach at our safety course. He was very well received by the kids and seemed to have a great time with them. He was very good to work with from the clubs standpoint also.

I would say that the future is looking bright as I can see it now! :smiley-faces7:

Freedom Rider
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Hey GTSE800,

You up this weekend?

I spoke with concerned parties about lodging for you on workparty weekends, should have answer tomorrow. I will call you or see you this weekend.

I am leaving early in morning tomorrow.

Time to move some dirt!

On to Pine River Forest on Friday to help Seven Lakes with their project removing 5 feet of height off of the problematic hill.

Give me a ring when you know your plans.

Freedom Rider
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