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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I was sitting here pondering an idea the last couple of days about the following thoughts that I had. :doh:

I would really think that it would help the area out significantly if the clubs all submitted grooming schedules to each other. This would make it far easier to coordinate the grooming of chronic bad area's. If the clubs were overlapping by a bit it would help rule out the bad area's where they meet. I think the reason for this is that I'm sure the groomer operators have a concern about if a neighboring club's groomer maybe coming the other way and a logjam may occur. This is very important in area's around Corridor 19. With really no room to manuever the groomers past one and other, you could end up stuck real easy. Pine River forest is another as well as Polly's Crossing area. Could you imagine being in a groomer coming down the Hell Ride Hill in PRSF and seeing a Tucker coming up? That sure would suck! :banghead:

Maybe starting a pinned thread on this forum would give the clubs an option to try this. It would really benefit the riders as for trip planning. With the high price of fuel people are going to want to know where the good and bad are, so they can plan to avoid those areas. With having some sort of posted schedule I think that it would kind of even out the trail system condition's. People would have positive info in hand to plan with, instead of just guessing where will be good and bad.

Imagine if you know the schedule, you could plan nice loops that would be consistant as far as trail conditions. It would provide you with alternatives to bypass the heavily traveled area's on your trip back. :div20: This is really going to come into play on C-19 as having lost the covered bridge in Ossipee. Know if you want to go to the Castle for a day trip, you will have to park Truck/trailer at WLSP, ride out by trailblazers, proceed south to Polly's Crossing, and go thru Transformer Hill area to approach the Castle from the south. The past years you could go one way up and the other way back. Now the same trail mileage will have twice the traffic. :frech32:

With the ongoing development of the Coyote district over the next year or so, you could utilize Pine River Forest to Green mountain to Heath Bog area to Lake Ossipee and tie into SOS and OVSC trail systems at the lake edge. You could also head south down to SLSC trail system towards Wakefield or Province Lake then down towards Miss Wakefield dinner towards Lake Winnie and up to Castle or Moultonboro and back thru the Sandwicj Sidehillers trail system and on to Wonalancet. :luxhello: :luxhello:

As you can see, the trip options are going to be endless. If clubs posted suggested different trip and trail options you could provide for a more balanced area to ride. Maybe even to go as far as rating certain area's as far as time or experience level terrain. This would help out with famly and newbies to the sport. I know that parts of the Green Mountain area and Mount Whittier are going to provide some people with a white knuckkle experience if they are not prepared or expecting it. Vista and picnic suggestions would also help the riders. Maybe list where the clubs snack shacks and what the hours of operations are. :wut60:

If the clubs use the same type of info system as each other such as mileage to next junction, or perhaps to a destination I feel more people will explore these fine club trails. This would help with the overburdened area's that people keep going back over for fear of getting lost or not finding services. :dunno:

We could use this pinned thread idea to maybe help the Lake Ossipee area clubs get the info out on current events that are being scheduled or if a trail is closed or groomer down etc. If help is needed it would provide an area for the clubs to respond for requests for help etc. :help:

The following clubs will really gain from this type of working system: Mountain Meadows, Ossipee Valley, Sandwich Sidehillers, Scrub Oak Scramblers, Wolfboro, and the Seven Lake Club. With this consortium of clubs you have to see the incredible potential for the area! Where it is hard to find volunteers this would go to providing a manpower resource between the above clubs. :no_bashing:

Sincerley,

Freedom rider
 

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Nice post! Shows a lot of thought and great ideas, but how do you get motivated to write something that together at 3:44 AM? :frech11: Ispiration is timeless and knows no bounds. :help:
pathfinder58 :div20:
 

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I highly agree with Pathfinder. Freedom rider I too come up with great things between 2-6 in the morning when I should be sleeping. Maybe I should start doing all my school papers then :dunno:
 

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FR,
Great ideas.
I am surprised by the lack of traffic on some of our trails. I guess if you don't know the trails in a certain area you may be a little leary of seeing where they go.

Our part to help move riders to other parts of our trail system is the creation of the new trail map. We have a great system and areas where you can really feel alone in the forest. Hopefully folks will understand the trail system better and be willing to venture off a little more.

This also will help spread out the pressure on other trails. The trails do though all eventually end up back at the trail parking areas where wear and tear do take their toll. Heavy snows and grooming will keep those areas under control.

Also we update our website grooming schedule daily during the riding season. It's in the Trails Condition section of the OVSC website.

Getting together with these other clubs to make this area even better is going to have to happen even to discuss just where we can take care the overlap trails even better and with less effort.

Corridor 19 is busy. Any Ideas to make it nicer are sure welcome.

Keep the positive postings coming,
Mark
OVSC T/M
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
Mark,

Thank you for the support and the great work with the OVSC web site on being able to give concise and timely grooming reports. This is one of the reasons why I chose to become a member and be involved with OVSC. There is a strong showing of commitment by the people that are getting involved there.

I think that the clubs will find that they will recieve more support if there is more infomation being diseminated to the riding public. There is a little of the explorer in all of us out there. With accurate trail conditions, good signage, and maps people will more apt to come back to an area in the near future. This has a trickle down effect on the surrounding clubs and local economy. People are more apt to convert from daytripping to weekend trips or vacations in the area if this concept bears fruit.

Another idea is for the local clubs to pick a trail in there system to highlite as a destination. Such as picnic area, scenic vista, or maybe historical landmark. This would allow it to be a new adventure each trip out there. The modern snowmobiler now consists of not just a 30 something year old male with a 900 cc. lake ripper, but more to the effect of an average family with spouse and children, who want reasonable entertainment for their moderate investment. Getting to partake in a sport that allows you to go out into nature and pristine spots that you would never be able to access otherwise, is a valuable learning tool for todays children.

I am a firm believer in having a strong Junior members program as the children of today are the club volunteers and leaders of tomorrow. If you start them young I feel that you will find the return rate will increase over time. I myself, became heavily involved in a local club when I was 14 years old. It was very rewarding going to the meetings and activities and being treated as an a equal, not just a dumb kid. My friends and I never would pass up the opertunity to go on a trail work party even if it was just to be able to learn something about the woods. The older generations always provided us with something to learn or a story or something to laugh about. OVSC is truely blessed to have David Bowles, Charlie Tupper, and a few others who enjoy going out and working on the trails. You never hear the line I'm to tired or sorry don't have time. You are more apt to hear is, what needs to be done or when do you want to do it? This type of camraderie is a valuable tool in development of young mind and teaching responsibilty to the future leaders of our society. A pat on the back or an atta boy will go along way with a youngster.

John, I feel that OVSC has made incredible strides over the last couple of years. I am seeing people responding to the desire for change in their trail systems. The responce to using the web, as a tool, to get the message out is a tremendous asset for the local club community. You are able to reach more people, much faster and more accurately than in the past. If these ideas in this thread start to have an impact on how the local clubs work together, I see great, great things happening in the near future. :div20:

Just my two cents worth,

Freedom Rider
 

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I agree with all you guys, I think with all the clubs working together in the Ossippie area will draw a lot more day trippers & vacationers to the area which will be great for all the local business and local ecomony.

The one big problem I see, is the added traffic on 19.
We all know rails suck big time, and they don't get enough snow cover until mid Feb and 19 is the main artery conecting all these trail systems together and with the added tracfic when it does have snow cover it will go to the dogs real quick.

It would be nice to have the rails taken out, I heard that in Vermount that some company took out the rails and the fee was cashing in on the scrap metal which I think today is worth some good $.

I also know there is talk about the railroad opening up again so if that happens we lose the trail anyway, so future plans should be cutting a new trail along the tracks? maybe OT can start talking to the land owners along 19 to see what can be accomplished.
 

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You are right about the tracks needing to be removed.

The latest track study, now several years old, stated that it would cost in excess of a million dollars a mile to bring the tracks between Ossipee and Conway back up to passenger car/freight standards.

The reintroduction of passenger rail service over this line is a pipedream kept alive my a handful of local politicians catering to the tree huggers.

To rip up these tracks and make 19 a decent trip would obvioulsy induce more sled traffic to the area, hence more tourist dollars.

And this area needs to do all that it can to promote tourism.

But as long as we keep re-electing the crew that we do.....oh well, we reap what we sow!

Skip
 

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Discussion Starter · #8 ·
The problem with ripping up the rails is that the corridor land would revert back to the original owners. Instead of having just the DOT to deal with like the present, you would have to deal with probably at least 100 different owners. This is the exact issue that happened at Twin Mnt. and Amc fiasco. When the rails were not in place to be used actively the land use changed and that was the basis for the Amc challenge in court.

In the next town to me in Southern NH. the same thing happened. The land was deeded to town as conservation and the rails came up. The local farmer took it to court. The court said that the land reverts back to the original plots and the town had to pay the farmer a couple of hundred thousand dollars for legal expences and damages. The farmer now own's the land and posted it. This rail bed was a very active snowmobile trail for many , many years. It was maintained by Grant and Aid funding and the local club. Now you can't even access it by foot let alone sled. There are gates and jersey barriers stacked two and three high. It eliminated access to peoples woodlots and made alot of enemy's.

We will just have to appreciate what we have for now. Something, even if rough, is better than nothing. There is a way to eliminate some of the trail on tracks but you would need alot of manpower to cut the trail. The Bureau of Trails doesn't have the time nor budget for this at current with the loss of covered bridge and major work at Cog rd. and Bear Notch rd. It would be a major undertaking that would have to involve a couple of clubs and a lot of volunteers. I don't think that there is enough committed volunteers to do this project the way it would have to be done. The proper way would be to raise money and sub contract the work out. Some decent sized bridges would have to be built etc; and a lot of leg work.

It sure would be a great three year plan huh? With input and people helping out it could be done but it would be a lot of work.

Thank you for the input though, as this was the intention of this thread in the first place. Maybe form a consortium to look furthur into trying to due this. Raise funds with local business's, federal grants (alternative trans.) , and Heritage Rec. Trails grants. Let me know if you guys are interested in trying to start some thing like this and I will look into what the process will entail.

Thanks for the input,

Freedom Rider
 

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Originally posted by freedom rider@Sep 14 2005, 09:40 AM
The problem with ripping up the rails is that the corridor land would revert back to the original owners. <div align="right">index.php?act=findpost&pid=874394
[/quote]

Not neccesarily. Case in point, the City of Dover. Once the tracks through town were removed through a series of eminent domain & private negotiations, the entire stretch is slated to become a city owned trail.

You are correct that it would be a near insurmountable proposition to build a trail system that would entirely bypass the Corridor 19 section we are talking about. It would actually be easier to begin the process, politically, of having the State obtain the rights to the track property with the eventuallity of removing the tracks.

While both ideas would take time, money & plenty of resources, removing the tracks would still be the easier of two choices.

In the end, neither will happen anytime soon, and you are right; let's enjoy what we do have, it is much better than losing this route.

It just sends chills up my spine when I hear a local politico talk about spending millions of dollars to revitalize a small section of rail. It would make much more sense to spend much less money on a bus based transit sytem and spend the left over funds on improving the deadly sections of Route 16 than to waste funds on a method of transportation people shun. The money spent on the seacost for the Northeastern passenger service is a fine example of government run amuck. Come by anytime to watch the empty trains pass through the seacoast numerous times each day, 'cause you and I are subsidizing this AMTRAK boondoggle to the tune of millions each year! :frech32:

Ah, but I digress.

My personal thanks to you for the enthusiasm you are showing towards snowmobiling in the Ossipee region. :luxhello:

Hope to be at the October 1st meeting and get my feet wet helping out the OVSC/Coyotes club and making Ossipee one of the premier snowmobile hubs in the State!

Skip
 

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Discussion Starter · #10 ·
Amen Skip,
Thanks for the encouraging words.

The issue on land ownership is a very sensative one. It all ahs to depend on how the land was originally taken. The railtrail that I speak of was an approved rail to trail project thru the State and Federal goverment. It went thru all of the court process and the town lost each and every time. It is hard pressed to use eminent domain when it already probably been used once and now a second time for the same piece of land. The State courts felt strong enough about it that they made the town deed them the land, pay all court and lawyer fee's, and monetary damages. This was all only relating to one quarter mile stretch by one hundred feet wide ROW. Can you imagine the effort it would take to try this process over the twenty or so mile stretch of Corridor 19. If you look at the widening project and putting in rail between I93 over in Windham the money being spent and wetlands being replicated is obscene and thats for only under twenty miles and the state already own's the land.

There are some options available to bypass the section of tracks that are the worst. It is a definite problematic area from Route 41 to Town line Trailers. I would bet that with 25-50,000 dollars you could bypass that whole stretch while not touching the tracks. There is strong opposition to the removal of rail by the Putt Putt club. This is why you still see the tracks from Wakefield to Wolfboro in place. They were involved in helping State get the easements from B and M and building the rec trail use of it in the first place. It is a very controversal subject as stated by a local muckity muck I spoke with about five years ago.

The biggest hurdle if the rails came out would be who takes care of the right of way? Gates, law enforcement,and illegal dumping. The states resources are stretched to the max already. The rails are a deterrent to the summer time traffic on the rails somewhat now.

At least this thread is a productive avenue to get the things that effect our sport out in the light! Hopefully people will become enlightened to what it takes to keep us moving in a forward direction. Keep the thoughts coming in!

My two cents worth,

Freedom Rider

Skip,
I am looking forward to meeting you at the first meeting and we can throw around some more ideas. You seem up to the task to try to help with input to make this area, a much better area.
 

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Good points Freedomrider....

I have become familiar with your efforts via Mark at OVSC.....Mark & I both have camps nearby each other.

I do have some ideas to kick around, and have a source for some possible tool/equipment donations.

Looking forward to meeting everyone on the 1st, and will definitely be at the next trail party! :beerchug:

Skip
 

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When I am done, we will have the Coyote district trails connecting Leavitt, Broad, and ossipee lake with the PRSF. So, thats one aid in helping reduce C-19 woes.
I have suggested a few times that we beg for permission to cut the trees back on the WHOLE LENGTH of the tracks.
Just removing the Pine trees will allow a whole lot more snow in to where it's needed. Someone like R.G. (who is a MMR officer) could pop a fellerbuncher in @ the greenery, cut and bunch all the way up to O-town, and then a skidder could yard the wood to a landing so it could be processed. I'd recommend giving the wood outright to whoever would donate the equipment. It would offset their costs some. Perhaps a state level grant could be arranged...We'd have a few days worth of brush to toss off the tracks...
I am brainstorming on a whole new trail that would offer a loop around a large section of C-19 over Ossipee way...I never stop thinking of new trails to build...Hope I am not stepping on toes in another trailmasters district lol...
 

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Also discussed was the filling of the rails with some media (gravel, woodchips, etc)that would not affect the ability of the use of small rail going equipment. This would keep the rails intact and still help with the ridability and grooming of the line. We will revisit this idea and hopefully a C19 upgrade can happen in the near future. Personally I think this would be the easiest and quickest and less expensive way to improve C19. Any Ideas are alway appreciated.
Trails Bureau did move the trail at the switchs off the tracks to land adjacent running behind McDonalds last season.
People that didn't pay attention to the signs and did run the switchs got into trouble. Be prepared for the reroute again this season.
 

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i think if you guys look at your posts, your answering your own questions. why dont they post there schedule? well can you imagine if every sledder going on a trip knew when and where they were grooming, the resulting traffic jam behind the groomer would look like an L.A freeway during rush hour! the groomer operators work long and hard hours now just to have some yahoo come along and rip it up and im sure they dont want to advertise just when or where there goin to be.n its really a good thought i just see alot of problems with it. jmo
 

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Discussion Starter · #15 ·
:doh:
Originally posted by whtmtn@Sep 15 2005, 08:48 AM
Also discussed was the filling of the rails with some media (gravel, woodchips, etc)that would not affect the ability of the use of small rail going equipment. This would keep the rails intact and still help with the ridability and grooming of the line. We will revisit this idea and hopefully a C19 upgrade can happen in the near future. Personally I think this would be the easiest and quickest and less expensive way to improve C19. Any Ideas are alway appreciated.
Trails Bureau did move the trail at the switchs off the tracks to land adjacent running behind McDonalds last season.
People that didn't pay attention to the signs and did run the switchs got into trouble. Be prepared for the reroute again this season.
<div align="right">index.php?act=findpost&pid=875857
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The discussion on this approach was a short one as it would make it easier for access for atv and off road trucks to go down rail line. Also it would speed up decomposition of the existing rail ties. This would becaused by by the retention and inability of the tracks to drain and dry. If wood chips were put in and froze solid, you would have a sheet of ice in between rails. There would be no way to get snow to stick to this. Having the Tuckers grooming this would provide for an exciting time trying to keep from sliding off railbed and into woods.

As far as the issue regarding the switches, that problem has been resolved. :luxhello: If people read the signs they won't have to go over switches. It just means that the speed that people travel will have to be decreased so they read the signs and stay on bypass trail. :doh:
 

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Discussion Starter · #16 ·
Originally posted by machz1@Sep 15 2005, 09:04 AM
i think if you guys look at your posts, your answering your own questions. why dont they post there schedule? well can you imagine if every sledder going on a trip knew when and where they were grooming, the resulting traffic jam behind the groomer would look like an L.A freeway during rush hour! the groomer operators work long and hard hours now just to have some yahoo come along and rip it up and im sure they dont want to advertise just when or where there goin to be.n its really a good thought i just see alot of problems with it. jmo
<div align="right">index.php?act=findpost&pid=875873
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The concept that is being suggested is not to post times of grooming just the day schedule. For example, Sat., Sunday, and Wed. This way if you were planing trip to Castle, you know to take c-19 to Castle and maybe Coyote district in the future to return as the trail conditions will have deteriorated on c-19 by afternoon. At least you would know when the PRSF would have been groomed last.

I would highly doubt that people would try to follow groomer at the whoping speed of 3-6 miles per hour. Also, the Corridor gets groomed late at night not during the day time. ( state will not pay for daytime grooming on weekends!)
 

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Originally posted by whtmtn@Sep 15 2005, 07:48 AM
Also discussed was the filling of the rails with some media (gravel, woodchips, etc)that would not affect the ability of the use of small rail going equipment. This would keep the rails intact and still help with the ridability and grooming of the line. We will revisit this idea and hopefully a C19 upgrade can happen in the near future. Personally I think this would be the easiest and quickest and less expensive way to improve C19. Any Ideas are alway appreciated.
Trails Bureau did move the trail at the switchs off the tracks to land adjacent running behind McDonalds last season.
People that didn't pay attention to the signs and did run the switchs got into trouble. Be prepared for the reroute again this season.
<div align="right">index.php?act=findpost&pid=875857
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the bypass of the swiches has worked great, what about moving the trial onto the powerline and just fill in the bridge crossing with boards over the bearcamp where it would need to hop back on the lines as well as filling in a crossing to the Shell station. I run the lines to go down to Westward shores and don't recall there being any other river crossing and I wouldn't think it would take too much time with a small dozer to create a smooth 8' wide trail that would be easier to groom than a railbed.
 

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Legend,
I don't know if the pwrlines are officially off limits to snomos. I do know clubs have permissions to use pwrline trails from PSNH in other parts of the state ie out in the Newfound Lake area...Hardy Country and Baker Valley Clubs.
Really good idea....any input from others in the know.
Mark
 

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As to Freedom Riders suggestion about making known the areas folks could use as destinations for day rides.
I'm all for it. As a matter of fact in the process of editing our new trail map I'm putting places of interest. Lots of seasoned riders would know that a lake shore where a trail runs by or a hill with a lookout tower would be a nice place to aim for as a destination there are some that wouldn't consider it if it was not posted on the map.
When I ride in other clubs areas using their maps I'll kind of shoot for natural features of the land.
I think it will be fun though to mention on our map some of the highlights of our trail system.
Hope we can get it all on there because there's lots to see.
Mark
 

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Originally posted by whtmtn@Sep 15 2005, 12:26 PM
Legend,
I don't know if the pwrlines are officially off limits to snomos. I do know clubs have permissions to use pwrline trails from PSNH in other parts of the state ie out in the Newfound Lake area...Hardy Country and Baker Valley Clubs.
Really good idea....any input from others in the know.
Mark
<div align="right">index.php?act=findpost&pid=876116
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The problem with using the power lines is that PSNH does not own the land that they are on in most cases. You would need to get the landowners permission.
 
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