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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Well it's dec. 27 no snow not even in the forecast. Say we don't see any snow til the middle of Jan. or later. If groomers aren't running and no one is on the trails. Does that mean the state should be saving big $. I know it is no ones fault for no snow except that dirty little whore mother nature (slut), but is this what snowmobiling is going to shorter seasons more $. I know alot of groomers are volunteer and I am not saying anything bad about them. I love them. But if they don't run where is the money from the state going? Trail permits aren't getting any cheaper, seasons getting shorter, and sleds are getting more expensive what a crock of schmit. Just wanted to unleash some fustration any insight would be greatly taken And I am not bashin just cryin. I have a week off to whine because I am not sleding.
 

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Because of the shorter season do you think that our groomer payment will go down?
And that troublesome bridge that needs redecking. Because you are not using it at the moment, must not cost anyting to fix it huh?
How about the $$ that we are trying to save to build a building, will that also be cheaper too? But wait, no snow, no sledders around to donate, no grooming, and no way to make any money.

Yes, fuel to run the groomers is a large cost that is seen only when the groomers are running, everything else are fixed costs. You really have no idea of what it takes to keep your trails open, do some research.
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
Again like I said I am not bashing. i was wondering where the STATE money goes. Are you saying the state is building you a new building? And yes that is what I am doing right now research. Trying not to offend anyone, Trevor
 

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Because of the shorter season do you think that our groomer payment will go down?
And that troublesome bridge that needs redecking. Because you are not using it at the moment, must not cost anyting to fix it huh?
How about the $$ that we are trying to save to build a building, will that also be cheaper too? But wait, no snow, no sledders around to donate, no grooming, and no way to make any money.

Yes, fuel to run the groomers is a large cost that is seen only when the groomers are running, everything else are fixed costs. You really have no idea of what it takes to keep your trails open, do some research.[/b]
THANK YOU NEIL :div20:

You saved me a lot of typing :banghead:

The Trail Permit money goes into the TRAIL IMPROVEMENT FUND. This isn't just for "Grooming". It is also for the things Neil mentioned and much more.

The STATE DOES NOT GET THE MONEY (any longer). With the passage of Prop 1, the Trail Permit money will stay in the fund for use, not be allowed to be drawn out by Jenny G for other uses.

Do you belong to a local club or MSA? If you do, great, you should know this stuff. If you don't...SHAME SHAME :homework:
 

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THANK YOU NEIL :div20:

You saved me a lot of typing :banghead:

The Trail Permit money goes into the TRAIL IMPROVEMENT FUND. This isn't just for "Grooming". It is also for the things Neil mentioned and much more.

The STATE DOES NOT GET THE MONEY (any longer). With the passage of Prop 1, the Trail Permit money will stay in the fund for use, not be allowed to be drawn out by Jenny G for other uses.

Do you belong to a local club or MSA? If you do, great, you should know this stuff. If you don't...SHAME SHAME :homework:[/b]

:div20:


We all are frustrated that there isnt snow... :( All the business's are depending on everyone coming up to ride... There will be snow and we are hoping for some next week... :fluffy:
 

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Because of the shorter season do you think that our groomer payment will go down?
And that troublesome bridge that needs redecking. Because you are not using it at the moment, must not cost anyting to fix it huh?
How about the $$ that we are trying to save to build a building, will that also be cheaper too? But wait, no snow, no sledders around to donate, no grooming, and no way to make any money.

Yes, fuel to run the groomers is a large cost that is seen only when the groomers are running, everything else are fixed costs. You really have no idea of what it takes to keep your trails open, do some research.[/b]
Could not have said it better ! Like I said in my other topic, this situation hurts us more than most people realize.
 

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The fee shouldn't go down, and it SHOULDN'T GO UP!

I'm sure a bunch of people bought this years permits and slapped them on their sleds. There SHOULD be a SURPLUS of funds after the season!
 

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Any club that got a new groomer/drag prior to this year that still pays a payment is losing big time right now. The way they get the money is from grooming no grooming equals no money to pay for the equiptment. Also a bunch of groomer/drags were purchased this fall which gets funded from the trail permits. Not every michigan snowmobilier buys the permits before the snow falls, alot wait until they go the first time. Basically the fund is suffering bigtime right now.
 

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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
THANK YOU NEIL :div20:

You saved me a lot of typing :banghead:

The Trail Permit money goes into the TRAIL IMPROVEMENT FUND. This isn't just for "Grooming". It is also for the things Neil mentioned and much more.

The STATE DOES NOT GET THE MONEY (any longer). With the passage of Prop 1, the Trail Permit money will stay in the fund for use, not be allowed to be drawn out by Jenny G for other uses.

Do you belong to a local club or MSA? If you do, great, you should know this stuff. If you don't...SHAME SHAME :homework:[/b]
Thank you, that was the answer I was looking for. I did not know that. No I am not a member yet but do put my time in for the Seney Snowmobile Association.I am trying to get involved with is much as I can. But with a little child and Michigans economey, money is tight in all corners. I like to know where it goes at all times. You can call me a penny pincher all you want. If I have to spend $25 on something I'm not going to use that makes me mad. That could have been new shoes for my daughters first day of school or a nice back pack. And when i have to purchase another one for the wife and she doesn't use it, it chaps my ass even more. I donate as much money and TIME as I can. Sorry I don't live 2 miles from a trail where I can just hop on my new 4 wheeler and go tour the trails to see where they need improvements. My closest trail is at least 3 hrs. away. It sometimes pisses ME off when some of you guys get on here crowing about how we need money and how soooo busy you guys are with trail clean upand trail maintence yet your on here all hours of the day and night posting stuff. Tell ya what in July I'm gonna get on here and tell you guys how bad the roads suck down here and I'm gonna want you guys to come down here to fix them. I know i probably make little sense but don't bash me for where I live and what I love to do.
 

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Trevor,
I'm not bashing you, just explaining our end of the situation. Trail permits can't realistically cost any more, yet there still isn't enough $$ in the programs to cover what needs to be done. Clubs continually scrape to get by, with guys donating tons of time and their own $$. Local businesses donate what they can, but realistically, even if snowmobiles give them a ton of business, most won't be in a position to give much time or $$.
So what point am I trying to make. Except the extreme "administration" money the DNR skims off the top of the fund, all that money will be spent on the trails one way or another. As for our building, I was venting a little about that, and should have been more clear. That is a club project, and is badly needed. Thing is, our club works on mostly a general fund, and when we do extra grooms that don't get paid for, it is to the detriment of our new building. If there is no snow, no one to see the hard work we put into the trails, and no word of mouth to get people here, consequently, no one to be here for the few fundraiser type things we do. All that to build a building, to hold the groomers, that groom your trails… you get the drift?
What we do not need to do is start worrying about the December portion of the $25 trail permit prices. $6.25 is no big deal.
 

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MikeF7 is right on. I didnt buy permits last year. No snow and when we had snow, I couldnt get away. I wait till I'm ready to head out the door and then buy permits (4 of them=$100) So I saved 100 bucks last year, So did alot of people I know.
This year, same thing applies, if and when we get snow, I'll buy them. There is no current law saying I cant do this, least not yet, and no penalty ( once again, not yet). Unlike your plates on your vehicle, if you dont purchase them before they expire, state tacks on a penalty.
 

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I've been thinking a bunch about the local economy of all the small towns up north that depend on Snowmobiling to get by in the winter... They have to be hurting too!! Hell they don't even have Ice fishing!!
 

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Discussion Starter · #13 ·
This is a crazy question for you Neil. I've seen your groomer sitting outside. Is the drag road worhty? meaning can you pick up and travel with it down the road like a regular 6 bottom plow? If yes, are there no buildings up there to lease or rent? On like a six month bases or something like that. I understand it would be expensive. Or a donator of a building with of course bills payed for by your club.A 80 thousand dollar tractor and drag aren't cheap to be sitting ouside all year let alone to grease and repair in a drift bank. I would n't want to be outside wrenching either. I do not know your sitiuation so I am in the dark here. And I'm sure you guys have though this thru more than I have. But I am trying to understand where all the funds go. You guys are helping with that THANK YOU! Trevor
 

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Trevor...I think it is AWESOME you are trying to get educated. None of us that are answering your questions knew the answers without asking the same things as you earlier in life, or following along since the beginning of the Trail Permit days.

Sorry if I sounded harsh at all, I get frustrated with people assuming the clubs just have money lying around when there is no snow.

And just an FYI, I live in Metro Detroit. Yup, our roads suck! And I hear you loud and clear about money being tight. I have been out of work 7 weeks as of today :banghead:

As far as my kid's needs. If she needs shoes and it's a set back buying them, then I don't need to snowmobile. That is why all my stuff is currently gone. I didn't want to get into a situation where anyone else but me had to make concessions in my house.

Once again Trevor, great job on trying to learn. I remember when I asked silly grooming questions years ago and was jumped on with both feet by many a groomer driver. So I decided to get a groomer ride and then groom myself. Sure was an eyeopener I will never forget. THANKS AGAIN BISKIT! :beerchug:
 

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I've been thinking a bunch about the local economy of all the small towns up north that depend on Snowmobiling to get by in the winter... They have to be hurting too!! Hell they don't even have Ice fishing!![/b]
My too....I feel for those folks. Hell, they don't even have deer camps in many of those places anymore, so they relied more on sledders, but that has sucked for a couple years. My two favorite places to sleep & eat in Strongs are gone, so if I was riding I'd have to head elsewhere to set up shop.
 

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Discussion Starter · #17 ·
We wern't able to ride till mid jan last year. but when you see the massive trail network thru the state and how much money we spend on this sport. $25.00 is a deal for a trail permit[/b]
I agree 100% but little did i know before today that our trail permit money stays in our trail. I know Canada is Really steep I was just wondering if ours is going to turn into that. If so I might sell everything now and invest in some other sport less expensive. kind of like planning for the future. Thanks Beagle1 for the understanding.
 

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Canada is so expensive for a couple reasons...

First, it is 100% user pay. There is not Grant Sponsor match for a new groomer like here. If it's $120k, the club is paying for all of it not 1/2 or 60%.

Secondly, their insurance costs. Michigan clubs have to carry insurance. But Canada's has increased 500% (I think it was) of the last 3 years. If I recall, their insurance companies are a Government run scam. Maybe someone from there can elaborate.

Lastly is the sled to trail miles ratio. 10x more trails in Ontario than here, but probably only 1/3 the sleds per mile of trail.

If only 60,000 people here bought trail permits, but we still had 3500 miles of trails to take care of, the permit price would have to be triple.
 

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I am really glad that all of OUR money goes towards what it should. it makes me feel better buying the permit. where if it is a slow season or not it will help out with the groomers trails or anything sled realated. not just to help balance the budget some where else. if there is extra money some where than it can go to where is needed so we can have better trails. :celebrating: :linemup:

THINK SNOW

:fluffy: :fluffy: :fluffy: :fluffy: :fluffy:
 

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My biggest concern, money wise, is the condition of the businesses around me. Without the winter sports, these people REALLY hurt! If a gas station here, or a restaurant there, close down, it makes it less enjoyable and convenient for those that will eventually come here to play in the snow. And besides, since I live here, I lose out all year long!
Also, living here among the trails, I see more of what it takes year round to make these trails happen. It takes a lot more than most people realize. When I first started snowmobiling, this was a real eye opener. I felt guilty that I hadn't been supported the efforts of the clubs even when I didn't snowmobile.

MTC
 
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