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My buddy and I have been coming to Big East since day one. Sucks Cat will not be there! Yamaha is done! They've hitched there wagon too Cat and have been phoning it in for years! :wall: If the Big East Show is any indication of the health of the snowmobiling, IMO it's dying a slow death! :cry:
I firmly believe this will be the only year of Cat missing the show.

Think of it as a dude relocating for better work and needing to clean up some bills and getting financially organized before the big move.

Cat is going through the same ordeal. The massive amount of problems with too early release of the 2012 Procross put them in a financial bind and things spiraled from there. Snow shows booths are very expensive! (believe me, I work at the Big East show and others every year)

Cat is liquidating old inventory and cutting excess expenses. They also cut old employees who were too complacent in their jobs. They've been injecting new engineers into the fray, and so on.
This business is HIGHLY competitive - as it should be. Hopefully what they have coming next spring will sway buyers back in their direction.

I think their in season approach will become more like Ski Doos. Sell nice models in the spring only and just offer crappy base models for dealer showrooms. Funny how Ski Doo has been doing that forever and nobody seems to have a problem with it.
 

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Cat will NOT be at Syracuse this year. Yamaha will, but their booth is 1/2 the size it used to be. Sucks.
You guys need to chill... Shows (of any kind) are dwindling. Technology is killing them. Why spend tens/hundreds of thousands to be at a show when people are unwilling to hundreds or thousands to attend??

This is not just snow, or even powersports shows. It's ALL trade shows (Information Technology to Toy Shows).

The latest and greatest is all over the internet seconds after it is announced. Do you not recall the 2012 AC release? HCS was unusable for 24 hours!

Chillax
 

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You guys need to chill... Shows (of any kind) are dwindling. Technology is killing them. Why spend tens/hundreds of thousands to be at a show when people are unwilling to hundreds or thousands to attend??

This is not just snow, or even powersports shows. It's ALL trade shows (Information Technology to Toy Shows).

The latest and greatest is all over the internet seconds after it is announced. Do you not recall the 2012 AC release? HCS was unusable for 24 hours!

Chillax
While they've taken a bit of a hit, they are still highly relevant to the industry. After years of working these shows across the country, I can tell you first hand some of these small businesses could never survive without snow shows.

Ski Doo, Cat, etc... can, but these shows aren't just about them. Not even close. It's too bad some people pass on them nowadays and would prefer to sit on their couch, save $30 bucks and just browse the internet.
 

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I firmly believe this will be the only year of Cat missing the show.

Think of it as a dude relocating for better work and needing to clean up some bills and getting financially organized before the big move.

Cat is going through the same ordeal. The massive amount of problems with too early release of the 2012 Procross put them in a financial bind and things spiraled from there. Snow shows booths are very expensive! (believe me, I work at the Big East show and others every year)

Cat is liquidating old inventory and cutting excess expenses. They also cut old employees who were too complacent in their jobs. They've been injecting new engineers into the fray, and so on.
This business is HIGHLY competitive - as it should be. Hopefully what they have coming next spring will sway buyers back in their direction.

I think their in season approach will become more like Ski Doos. Sell nice models in the spring only and just offer crappy base models for dealer showrooms. Funny how Ski Doo has been doing that forever and nobody seems to have a problem with it.
I truly hope you're right, IMO this Cat dilemma will go one of two ways with nothing in between. Textron is either all in or all out on sleds. Textron got what they wanted out of Cat, the dirt side. Now with the Tracker deal they need the snow side even less! And as far as Yamaha buying the Cat's snow side I don't see that happening at all. The ROI is so small, why lay out millions on a flat and sometimes shrinking market! End of rant! :snack:
 

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I truly hope you're right, IMO this Cat dilemma will go one of two ways with nothing in between. Textron is either all in or all out on sleds. Textron got what they wanted out of Cat, the dirt side. Now with the Tracker deal they need the snow side even less! And as far as Yamaha buying the Cat's snow side I don't see that happening at all. The ROI is so small, why lay out millions on a flat and sometimes shrinking market! End of rant! :snack:
Yep, pretty much spot on. Unfortunately, I don't see AC surviving. No one is going to buy the snow division by itself and Textron isn't going to keep pouring money into a losing proposition.
 

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Yep, pretty much spot on. Unfortunately, I don't see AC surviving. No one is going to buy the snow division by itself and Textron isn't going to keep pouring money into a losing proposition.
Textron is a publicly-held company, meaning they have a well defined legal responsibility to provide information about the financial health of the company to both active/potential investors and government regulators. That doesn't mean they always tell the truth or are always 100% transparent, but it does mean it's a lot more difficult to hide mistakes and bad management.

For convenience, here's the transcript from the 2Q2019 earnings call that is available from Motley Fool:
Textron Inc (TXT) Q2 2019 Earnings Call Transcript

This part was of particular interest to me (and for those with a short attention span, I added some highlighting). I don't see anything in there about losing money:

Peter Arment -- Robert W. Baird & Co -- Analyst

Scott, could you just give us a little more color on how things are going in terms of within the Industrial segment, particularly, I guess, specialized vehicles. Format seem to be a little better than I think a lot of us were expecting. What's -- how is the Bass Pro kind of rollout going? Just maybe some color there.

Scott C. Donnelly -- Chairman and Chief Executive Officer

Sure. No, there's a couple of things there, Peter. First of all, obviously, from an operational performance standpoint, the business is doing much better. Historical businesses where we've had a very strong position and good performance for a long time in golf and ground support equipment and areas like that. Our sales performance is back where it should be, guys are doing very well, the markets are healthy, and again, the teams operational execution is quite strong in the off-road world, we're down [Indecipherable] that's quite conscious. Right?

We're working very, very hard to make sure that we do a much better job in terms of how we manage those retail channels. Snow is a good example, the position that we took this year as we said, guys, we're only going to pre-sell. When you look at the North American market, which is obviously the vast majority of the market in the snow world, we went out with our program. And so guys were only going to build what we've already sold. So we went around and have deposits from customers, this product line is basically sold out. And so we'll be here through the whole third quarter manufacturing all those units and shipping them out, but unlike in previous years where we'll be putting a lot of inventory out into the field and dependent on how that sold through, and then getting into rebating if it's not selling through. We said, we're just not going to do that. So we're going to do only a presale and that was frankly a very successful program. We saw very strong demand across the product line, but were pre-sold.

So on the dirt side, obviously, that's a longer and sort of a little bit of a different selling season as you go through there. But again, we're being very, very cautious about how we manage that channel, how much inventory we allowed to be out into that channel, we did awful lot of hard work on looking at individual dealers and making sure that we have relationships where that relationship is a profitable relationship for both us and the dealer. And as a result, we've dramatically reduced the number of deals that we had out there. Because when we went back and looked at some of them by the time you get through the rebating, it's not a profitable relationship. And so, we've taken the pains of terminating relationships with the vast majority of those folks.

Specifically on the Tracker front, obviously, the Bass Pro, Cabela and their independent Marine dealers is terrific channel, extraordinarily well run, very, I would say, delivered around what it does in terms of inventory. So in terms of how they manage is quite consistent with how we want to manage the business going forward. So we've been seeing a lot of activity and load-ins across both stores and independent dealers here over the last six months, that obviously will continue through the balance of the year. We like the trajectory, the momentum is building. So I think when you look year-over-year, Peter, we're much happier with where that business is, both in terms of its -- how it operates everyday, how it thinks about managing some of those channels. Some of the issues we had last year would be late with some of the new products. Obviously, that's -- those products did get the market and I think we have a great product lineup.

We just have to be a very measured about how we manage the channels and how much inventory we allow to be out there to reduce risk and make sure that we have a good profitable business.
 

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Textron is a publicly-held company, meaning they have a well defined legal responsibility to provide information about the financial health of the company to both active/potential investors and government regulators. That doesn't mean they always tell the truth or are always 100% transparent, but it does mean it's a lot more difficult to hide mistakes and bad management.

For convenience, here's the transcript from the 2Q2019 earnings call that is available from Motley Fool:
Textron Inc (TXT) Q2 2019 Earnings Call Transcript

This part was of particular interest to me (and for those with a short attention span, I added some highlighting). I don't see anything in there about losing money:

Peter Arment -- Robert W. Baird & Co -- Analyst

Scott, could you just give us a little more color on how things are going in terms of within the Industrial segment, particularly, I guess, specialized vehicles. Format seem to be a little better than I think a lot of us were expecting. What's -- how is the Bass Pro kind of rollout going? Just maybe some color there.

Scott C. Donnelly -- Chairman and Chief Executive Officer

Sure. No, there's a couple of things there, Peter. First of all, obviously, from an operational performance standpoint, the business is doing much better. Historical businesses where we've had a very strong position and good performance for a long time in golf and ground support equipment and areas like that. Our sales performance is back where it should be, guys are doing very well, the markets are healthy, and again, the teams operational execution is quite strong in the off-road world, we're down [Indecipherable] that's quite conscious. Right?

We're working very, very hard to make sure that we do a much better job in terms of how we manage those retail channels. Snow is a good example, the position that we took this year as we said, guys, we're only going to pre-sell. When you look at the North American market, which is obviously the vast majority of the market in the snow world, we went out with our program. And so guys were only going to build what we've already sold. So we went around and have deposits from customers, this product line is basically sold out. And so we'll be here through the whole third quarter manufacturing all those units and shipping them out, but unlike in previous years where we'll be putting a lot of inventory out into the field and dependent on how that sold through, and then getting into rebating if it's not selling through. We said, we're just not going to do that. So we're going to do only a presale and that was frankly a very successful program. We saw very strong demand across the product line, but were pre-sold.

So on the dirt side, obviously, that's a longer and sort of a little bit of a different selling season as you go through there. But again, we're being very, very cautious about how we manage that channel, how much inventory we allowed to be out into that channel, we did awful lot of hard work on looking at individual dealers and making sure that we have relationships where that relationship is a profitable relationship for both us and the dealer. And as a result, we've dramatically reduced the number of deals that we had out there. Because when we went back and looked at some of them by the time you get through the rebating, it's not a profitable relationship. And so, we've taken the pains of terminating relationships with the vast majority of those folks.

Specifically on the Tracker front, obviously, the Bass Pro, Cabela and their independent Marine dealers is terrific channel, extraordinarily well run, very, I would say, delivered around what it does in terms of inventory. So in terms of how they manage is quite consistent with how we want to manage the business going forward. So we've been seeing a lot of activity and load-ins across both stores and independent dealers here over the last six months, that obviously will continue through the balance of the year. We like the trajectory, the momentum is building. So I think when you look year-over-year, Peter, we're much happier with where that business is, both in terms of its -- how it operates everyday, how it thinks about managing some of those channels. Some of the issues we had last year would be late with some of the new products. Obviously, that's -- those products did get the market and I think we have a great product lineup.

We just have to be a very measured about how we manage the channels and how much inventory we allow to be out there to reduce risk and make sure that we have a good profitable business.
Thanks for all this. Good reading for sure. Let's hope they don't stick to the pre-sale only strategy though.
 

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I agree, Rob. It will be interesting to see how the next year goes. I actually hope they continue with the discounted prices for spring orders, but it would be nice to see dealers with current inventory again.

Regarding the previous post, I know a lot of people's eyes will glaze over when they start trying to follow the rambling answer that the CEO gave to the analyst.

I have already talked a lot in another thread about the meaning of the second half of his answer, where he talks about dealers who rely on rebates to move ATV's and how that's not profitable. I really don't want to do it again.

The main takeaway is that for both snow and dirt they are happy with the way things are going. Again - BOTH snow and dirt.

Before you think that the CEO was just blowing smoke up everyone's you-know-what to keep his job or whatever, there are very real consequences for lying in public.

Textron is getting sued by investors who have been misled about how much money Textron said they'd make from the Arctic Cat acquisition. Whether there's any basis for that claim is not for us to decide. But, the point is, this stuff happens and lawsuits aren't the only concern - the SEC could come crashing down on Textron for lying, as well. These are high stakes.

I'm not siding with Textron, who I consider to be greedy bean counters who couldn't care less for the lives of real people that are used, abused and possibly ruined because of their decisions. But, I am saying that they said they're happy with snowmobile sales this year - in public, and with real consequences for lying.
 

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While they've taken a bit of a hit, they are still highly relevant to the industry. After years of working these shows across the country, I can tell you first hand some of these small businesses could never survive without snow shows.

Ski Doo, Cat, etc... can, but these shows aren't just about them. Not even close. It's too bad some people pass on them nowadays and would prefer to sit on their couch, save $30 bucks and just browse the internet.
I would love to go... unfortunately, the nearest show for me is an entire day's drive. I live on a "snow island" surrounded by brown in the winter.
 

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Not sure what to say but I know cat is not going to say what’s really going on it’s September they still have snow check sleds being shipped and lots of over stock to sell no way they say anything other then see you next year is very vague just like there were not done racing don’t believe what you hear and look it will definitely be some answers come February or March and I think the Yamaha deal is all done my opinion maybe work a deal for the Yamaha powered thunder cat
 

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They have had it about 3 years now and got it to stop bleeding money. They will probably sell the whole thing now as that is what textron does.
 
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