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Discussion Starter #1
sooo even thou i have the TAPP and STM clutchs on the sled properly set up now, i always carry the stock team stuff in the truck...just in case when we go for 5 day tours. what is a good set up for stock 2020 t cat weights and springs and helix and what would be for the 285hp. i have SSI mag weights and springs galor... not to many diff helixs but do have heavier sec springs or will get.
thunder clutch.jpg
 

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I've had pretty good luck with a slightly heavier secondary spring and the stock helix. The Magnaforce showed the best results on the track dyno with the 170/330 or 150/330 primary depending on preference. The 170 had slightly better results but I prefer the "driveability" of the 150 start. What worked in the driven for one tune didn't necessarily translate to other tunes so keep that in mind.
 

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Discussion Starter #3
how about weight wise with mag weights and that spring? i know as tune goes up more weight will need to be added but give me an idea... stock ill go a bit more than factory weight, then for the 300 what will it pull? what does the stock 2020 come with for weights and springs... havent looked yet.
 

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3-2-2 would be a good baseline, 80-82grams. Stock is 74g 120/285. Secondary is 155/220
 

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Discussion Starter #6
I dont know what finally woke Cat up on their spring manufacturing.... i just installed that stock spring with delrins in the cups along with the mag weights and the Zoller racing cover and full titanium bolt pkg and collapsed the the clutch closed and the spring has lots of space still between the coils at full shift!!! every other clutch i have ever done of cats the springs are nearly coil bound and the paint peels because they are always stressed to the max. heres a pic of cover n bolts and pins along with how nice the spring is stretched out... i dont have a collapsed pic
 

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That spring is pretty mean, what angle helix are you running with it? I ask because I have been down this road with the TAPP primary and pro-4 secondary on my tuned Winder.
After a bunch of testing and discussion with some other tuners with FAR more experience than me, I (we) found --as CRP714 said --that a slightly heavier secondary spring and stock helix works best all the way up to 300 hp. Those heavy secondary springs put too much heat in the belt. The sled works to open the secondary, not drive it ahead. As one tuner said " its all about the upshift"
I actually have @4000 miles on this set up now and believe I have it almost perfect. They never are really perfect for all conditions but I think I am close. I may try a dual angle helix this year just to see what it does.
 

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Anyone do back to back runs with Cat green sno pro (torsion) vs Dalton orange/violet (compression)? This is with stock helix. Dalton spring is slightly stronger than stock compression.
 

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Discussion Starter #11 (Edited)
soo going back to the old days when i had the fastest sleds around in the early 2000-2003, my 1999 D&D 1100 t-cat had a 60/40 helix and a red white sec spring from cat... ran 137 on the gun, then my 1220 geniesis ran 145mph same sec set up. my ZR900 ran a black wht primary polaris spring and 80 grams of weight and a 62/52 helix with a green sno pro and it was set up on a track dyno to put most hp to ground with Jeff Simon at CPR racing.... that was the best set up any one had, no one could touch my sled bone stock went 125mph... that set up was 5 sleds ahead against its sister sled in 2000 ' then we did same clutch to it and we were side by side. my issue that im seeing is everyone seams to be running this set up with a 46/36 or 48/38 helix.... this to me is a way shallow helix.... but i gotta go with it as i dont kno where to start. Spec, if you have something diff that you have nailed dwn , please share, hate blowing belts while testing.
 

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I was having pretty good luck with a 44/49 reverse angle helix and Cat green sno pro spring. But when I switched to a faster spooling tune AND a 3.5 inch exhaust, it would flash out so hard that the sled would almost lose momentum until the secondary started going towards the 49. Primary is Dalton 81's with 1.7 grams in the tip, DD tan spring. I'm going back to the stock helix and I'm contemplating staying with the Cat green sno pro or (torsion) or the Dalton orange/violet (compression). Sled has 21/38 gears.
 

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Discussion Starter #13
When Jeff Simon was around and had the first track dyno's for testing clutching... it was sooo easy to nail dwn what put the most to the ground. now with the team primary and sec i would have it nailed in 1 hour of testing, but now with the standard old sec im thinking it should be 60/50 helix but gonna need to nail this TAPP dwn. i figur the faster shifting helix should load the turbo more and pull on the torque.... every video ive seen the guys are clutching for the max rpm instead of pulling on torque and running out on the rpm.... torque moves you fast..hp runs you out the back.
 

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No reverse angle for me, that’s what the Yamaha forum likes. I had better luck with the 46/36, will try steeper in time.
 

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soo going back to the old days when i had the fastest sleds around in the early 2000-2003, my 1999 D&D 1100 t-cat had a 60/40 helix and a red white sec spring from cat... ran 137 on the gun, then my 1220 geniesis ran 145mph same sec set up. my ZR900 ran a black wht primary polaris spring and 80 grams of weight and a 62/52 helix with a green sno pro and it was set up on a track dyno to put most hp to ground with Jeff Simon at CPR racing.... that was the best set up any one had, no one could touch my sled bone stock went 125mph... that set up was 5 sleds ahead against its sister sled in 2000 ' then we did same clutch to it and we were side by side. my issue that im seeing is everyone seams to be running this set up with a 46/36 or 48/38 helix.... this to me is a way shallow helix.... but i gotta go with it as i dont kno where to start. Spec, if you have something diff that you have nailed dwn , please share, hate blowing belts while testing.
the TAPP has substantially more belt squeeze than a traditional cam arm set up. due to that factor, we found that we need about 2 to 4 degrees shallower helix than what would have been the perfect set up on the stock style clutch. that's how our initial testing got us to 46/36.
that said, despite what so many people think these days, there is no one magical helix or clutch combo. every sled, every rider and every set of condition call for a different set up to be perfect. so due to the fact that not many people can actually clutch anymore, we have a few basic set ups that work pretty well all around for those that dont know what helix and spring they want.
now, if you really want to dial it in yourself, i'm happy to work with someone over the phone that simply needs a little assistance if they're new to the TAPP. although i've founf that a lot of guys that have been doing this a long time, will be really comfortable with the TAPP once they realize it's basically a billet cat hex clutch
 

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Discussion Starter #16
Thanks Tom, i will also compensate you for time if need be. this is gonna be a learning curve for sure with the tapp, the sec im prett atunned to it as in the day i was traned by Olev Aean, i have been given an initial set up of the med length roller bolt and 4 washers with +1` roller, it has black stripe spring in it. and ramps on A. the sec is green snow pro with 46/36 helix. i have it floating .050 and lined up dead centre to dead centre.... used a straight pointer sandwiched between sec sheaves at the hub and had it point right at a sribe mark in centre of hub on primary. im heading to Turbo Dynamics for them to do the wrk next week... full stage 4 kit with header and closed loop auto tune withh full guage flash and programmer n data logger on phone. fuel pump , pressure reg, blow of valve waste gate etc...
 

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Thanks Tom, i will also compensate you for time if need be. this is gonna be a learning curve for sure with the tapp, the sec im prett atunned to it as in the day i was traned by Olev Aean, i have been given an initial set up of the med length roller bolt and 4 washers with +1` roller, it has black stripe spring in it. and ramps on A. the sec is green snow pro with 46/36 helix. i have it floating .050 and lined up dead centre to dead centre.... used a straight pointer sandwiched between sec sheaves at the hub and had it point right at a sribe mark in centre of hub on primary. im heading to Turbo Dynamics for them to do the wrk next week... full stage 4 kit with header and closed loop auto tune withh full guage flash and programmer n data logger on phone. fuel pump , pressure reg, blow of valve waste gate etc...
i think you'll find that is a bit too much weight, but it's easy enough to adjust so no big deal.
 
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