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All 600-650's are priced at the old 800 level.
Look at the facts. Not inflation. When the 650 was introduced it was essentially the same MSRP price difference less than 850, that the 800 was the previous year.

Polaris 650 VR-1 weight= 467-475 lbs.
Cat ZR6000 weight= 511-525 lbs. (which is decent for a 11 year old chassis)
I'm not sure where you got your numbers from but the Polaris website lists the 650 VR1 137 at 476 pounds dry. This is without electric start. Cat doesn't publish weights but at the Old Forge shootout last year the ZR6000 weighed in at 22 pounds more than the skidoo 600R 137. Skidoo lists their sled at 470 pounds dry. So taking the fluids out, the Cat would be 492 pounds dry which is less than a VR1 with comparable electric start.
 

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Look at the facts. Not inflation. When the 650 was introduced it was essentially the same MSRP price difference less than 850, that the 800 was the previous year.



I'm not sure where you got your numbers from but the Polaris website lists the 650 VR1 137 at 476 pounds dry. This is without electric start. Cat doesn't publish weights but at the Old Forge shootout last year the ZR6000 weighed in at 22 pounds more than the skidoo 600R 137. Skidoo lists their sled at 470 pounds dry. So taking the fluids out, the Cat would be 492 pounds dry which is less than a VR1 with comparable electric start.
Ride one, I assure you the weight difference is not only noticeable while riding, go move them around in the garage, it’s not even close.
 

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Heavy or light, expensive or affordable Cat needs to get with the times. Hell, I WILL forego my '23 SC'd XCR 850 Poo & wait for the '24 Cat IF they do. I'll be at Hay Days for the reveal. I have both a great Cat & Poo dealer within 45 mins of my home, so that's not a factor to me.
There will always be a 1st, 2nd & 3rd in market share. I could give a shit. I still love Cats but won't leave Poo unless Cat shows something impressive. And while the Rave is definitely a contender, I wouldn't buy a Doo.
 

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I just like the fact that we are talking about something new rather than supply chain and late deliveries. Hopefully we wont see that again this fall winter. The business I’m in however doesn’t seem to be improving on that front (electrical supply). I will hanging around the reveal at haydays as well, anyone see a time for that yet?
 

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I don’t see anything they will reveal being a game changing swing of buyers for sure. It’ll be fresh looking to the cat loyal and maybe some updates. I almost think cat has fallen into the lethargic condition Yamaha eventually did with sleds, Not to say they can work on that.
 

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Ride one, I assure you the weight difference is not only noticeable while riding, go move them around in the garage, it’s not even close.
I've never ridden a Matryx but last summer I had in my garage a Matryx 850 129" ES, an Axys 600 144" ES, and an Axys 800 120" pull start. Just moving them around by hand the Matryx felt significantly heavier than the two others. So if a Matryx isn't heavier than a Procross, it's still gotta be pretty close based on the Old Forge weigh-in of 22 pounds more than a Doo. I have a Renegade 600R now and I would guess it feels at least 22 pounds less than the Matryx I had (static weight).
 

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I've never ridden a Matryx but last summer I had in my garage a Matryx 850 129" ES, an Axys 600 144" ES, and an Axys 800 120" pull start. Just moving them around by hand the Matryx felt significantly heavier than the two others. So if a Matryx isn't heavier than a Procross, it's still gotta be pretty close based on the Old Forge weigh-in of 22 pounds more than a Doo. I have a Renegade 600R now and I would guess it feels at least 22 pounds less than the Matryx I had (static weight).
Id have to see the numbers from that. Last I recall the cat was right around 40ish lbs heavier.

Regardless, the vr1850 weighs the same as a comparable vr1650, which is lighter than cats 600, so the 850s HP per LB is exceptional. Hopefully cats new "lighter weight" sled is just that.
 

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Scroll down just past half-way: NY Shootout Results: Times, Dyno Test And More | SnowGoer I don't necessarily trust people's weight measurements but when the same person weighs both sleds at the same time, the weight difference should be relatively accurate.
That's not as far off as I suspected. Doo used to be the lightest but seems to have put on some weight over the last few years with the new engine and G4 chassis.
 

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That's not as far off as I suspected. Doo used to be the lightest but seems to have put on some weight over the last few years with the new engine and G4 chassis.
I only follow the 600's. The current G4 600 is a few pounds lighter than the previous version. And it's the lightest current 600. I'm not saying that's a good thing, just making the observation. Skidoo released a 399 pound pull-start MXZ 600 back in 2008 but it was super fragile and missing essential components like idler wheels.
 

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I've never ridden a Matryx but last summer I had in my garage a Matryx 850 129" ES, an Axys 600 144" ES, and an Axys 800 120" pull start. Just moving them around by hand the Matryx felt significantly heavier than the two others. So if a Matryx isn't heavier than a Procross, it's still gotta be pretty close based on the Old Forge weigh-in of 22 pounds more than a Doo. I have a Renegade 600R now and I would guess it feels at least 22 pounds less than the Matryx I had (static weight).
I appreciate your wishful thinking, but unfortunately it doesn't reflect reality. It's easy to refute your claims since there are a ton of us on here that have actual experience with both chassis both on trail and on track (not your speculation or what you think you saw somewhere on the internet). Cat overstates their weight a bit, but in reality it's 512lbs, give or take 5 lbs- which BTW is great. A Polaris VR-1 is about 472lbs., give or take 5 lbs. Several of us here have both in the garage, and the weight difference is even more pronounced when moving the sled, or even riding the sled. The "seat of the pants" differences are much larger than the published weight suggests.

I made the move after 29 new Cats including several new Procross chassis sleds. I still have multiple in the garage. Again, there's nothing wrong with the Procross. It is a great chassis for a 12 model year old design. It meets the needs of the remaining Jim Ramstads of the world.....But it is completely outclassed by the offerings of the other manufacturers. And Cat's abysmal sales figures reflect that.

Cat's new chassis provides Cat with an opportunity. It will take a lot to pull customers back from Ski-Doo and Polaris. Their chassis are that good. Just catching up to the other manufacturers isn't going to be good enough to pull Cat's former customers back. They need to exceed what Polaris and Ski-Doo are offering.

Fortunately for Cat, there are still a few diehards out there that have kept the faith. The question is: will they put their money where their mouth is? Memories of my 2012 F800 Retro and my buddy's F1100 Limited will haunt us forever.....
 

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I appreciate your wishful thinking, but unfortunately it doesn't reflect reality. It's easy to refute your claims since there are a ton of us on here that have actual experience with both chassis both on trail and on track (not your speculation or what you think you saw somewhere on the internet).
So you're saying that Snowgoer has posted bad data? Does that make their 127 horsepower figure for the C-Tec also wishful thinking? I would agree with you, since your tunnel sticker says only 114hp.

FTR I've never claimed the Procross isn't a heavy sled. It's definitely a heavy sled.
 

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I appreciate your wishful thinking, but unfortunately it doesn't reflect reality. It's easy to refute your claims since there are a ton of us on here that have actual experience with both chassis both on trail and on track (not your speculation or what you think you saw somewhere on the internet). Cat overstates their weight a bit, but in reality it's 512lbs, give or take 5 lbs- which BTW is great. A Polaris VR-1 is about 472lbs., give or take 5 lbs. Several of us here have both in the garage, and the weight difference is even more pronounced when moving the sled, or even riding the sled. The "seat of the pants" differences are much larger than the published weight suggests.

I made the move after 29 new Cats including several new Procross chassis sleds. I still have multiple in the garage. Again, there's nothing wrong with the Procross. It is a great chassis for a 12 model year old design. It meets the needs of the remaining Jim Ramstads of the world.....But it is completely outclassed by the offerings of the other manufacturers. And Cat's abysmal sales figures reflect that.

Cat's new chassis provides Cat with an opportunity. It will take a lot to pull customers back from Ski-Doo and Polaris. Their chassis are that good. Just catching up to the other manufacturers isn't going to be good enough to pull Cat's former customers back. They need to exceed what Polaris and Ski-Doo are offering.

Fortunately for Cat, there are still a few diehards out there that have kept the faith. The question is: will they put their money where their mouth is? Memories of my 2012 F800 Retro and my buddy's F1100 Limited will haunt us forever.....
You sure have a thing for me. Kind of creepy! Never said they should not improve the pro cross. I just will never own a Polaris ever again and same goes for Ski Doo. Your assuming on sales, but you go for it. Keep it real.
 

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Never understood the argument about which brand is better, in my mind is personal preference not what I read on line ( I think the remaining 3 are all making decent machines) I ride a pro-cross and like it, most of my ridding buddies ride Skidoo’s and a few have Polaris, they all like theirs. I have noticed things I like about other brands and things I don’t and I’m sure my buddies would say the same, doesn’t mean any of us are wrong/right just what we each prefer. I’v been happy with the Pro-cross and have had several years of them, with that being said I’m excited to see new one this fall.

Haydays cant get here fast enough!
 

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Never understood the argument about which brand is better, in my mind is personal preference not what I read on line ( I think the remaining 3 are all making decent machines) I ride a pro-cross and like it, most of my ridding buddies ride Skidoo’s and a few have Polaris, they all like theirs. I have noticed things I like about other brands and things I don’t and I’m sure my buddies would say the same, doesn’t mean any of us are wrong/right just what we each prefer. I’v been happy with the Pro-cross and have had several years of them, with that being said I’m excited to see new one this fall.

Haydays cant get here fast enough!

I think what I, Zeimann, and others are trying to say is that the preferences that you refer to have shifted dramatically away from Arctic Cat. There are a lot of reasons for this, but aged product at similar prices is the main issue and it doesn't bode well. Snowmobiling is an enthusiast sport...the vast majority of the guys buying new machines are not casual participants in this activity. Innovation, technology, and new product will drive sales.....If Textron thinks they can rest on Arctic Cat's laurels, they are severely mistaken.
 

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I would agree with some of that, it does seem that Cat has lost market share and I don’t pretend to know what is going on financially behind Cats doors but I think its pretty obvious that Textron wold not stick with a line that’s not profitable and certainly would not bring something new to market if they were loosing money So maybe there not as bad off as some think, dunno. Just my thoughts but what do I know. Like I’ve said before regardless of what brand you ride something new to market from any of them is good for our sport!
 

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Agree
If you watch the new chassis advertisement from Cat they claim “A Revolutionary New Platform,” My thinking is with all of the negativity over the past 12+ years with Cat sitting on there hands they would not make that statement if it wasn't something special.....maybe Textron finally woke up.....we are all sitting on pins and needles
 
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