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New Catalyst

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Starting this thread in the hopes of having a good, logical and informative conversation about the new chassis without having 6000 ZR RR act as self appointed moderator to every post made.

Who would buy a triple.

  • Example: Triple would cost an extra $5,000 for 10hp extra over a twin.

    Votes: 7 87.5%
  • Example: Triple would cost an extra $10,000 for 20hp extra

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Example: Triple would cost an extra $20,000 for 50hp extra

    Votes: 1 12.5%
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I personally would have made the seat about 3- 4 inches longer.
Agreed!

I imagine that the market for a 600cc mountain sled is very limited and small. This was sort of a PRE-launch to show everyone that they are in fact WORKING ON SOMETHING. I don't they have even worked out the details on the shocks, gauge package, or motor displacements yet (outside of the existing CTEC 600 with some tweaks).

For Cat to succeed, they need to offer a 850/900 plus another engine displacement that the Polaris and Ski-Doo do not offer, like a 700 2-stroke. They also need to undercut Polaris and Ski-Doo in pricing. And for Pete's sake offer TRACK OPTIONS ON PRE-ORDERED SLEDS!!!
 

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I don't think a super fancy gage is needed, just needs to be easily visible and somewhat modern looking. I would rather have standard universal GPS mounting and a standard power outlet for me to install an aftermarket GPS of my choice. I don't want an expensive factory gage with navigation that will be outdated in 2 to 3 years.
 

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Could there be a 700 or 900 triple on the horizon? Pure speculation mind you.
With the cost (time and money) of EPA certifications and Cat's low volumes, there is no way of this happening, unfortunately.

This is what we'll see in the new chassis:
  • Revamped 600 CTEC
  • "New" 850 or 900 CTEC 2-stroke twin
  • Maybe a 4-stroke twin (built by Cat or from a 3rd party) to lower the fleet average emissions and provide an alternative to Ski-Doo 900 ACE and Polaris's new 4-stroke twin
Cat doesn't have to be the best to make a comeback, they just need to offer the best value. Let's hope they can do it!
 

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I agree it's challenging. And as the one post said Cat referenced "big Bore". Just doesn't seem logical to me to not offer this new chassis with the current 800 if they're offering it with the current 600. Possibly a third party engine? I'm really just thinking out loud.
Maybe offer the current 800 CTEC in the old chassis or the new chassis (with basic non-clicker shocks) as a "budget sled" and offer a 900R in the Catalyst chassis.

Cat needs to offer full size "value" models to win over new customers as part of their comeback strategy. I can see the Doo and Polaris faithful jumping back to Cat if a Cat is $1,500 to $2,000 cheaper and if they have a good Cat dealer nearby.
 

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I understand your point but it would be a real slap in the face to those who ordered a 2023 PC 800 and could then order a 2024 PC with a lower value price. It would be an easier sell if there was a differentiation but there won't be, just BNG.

I would like to see all the OEM create more budget minded sleds. I think we've become a victim of our own greed when it comes to features. Even the YouTube and social media reviews of sleds seem to dog the budget sleds. "Only comes with hydraulic shocks, dated engine technology, basic gauge, etc." We're at a point were we've made sleds almost unaffordable for the masses. We need more sleds in the budget/entry level range. Hell, my wife is happy with 500 miles a year. She couldn't care less about 3 positions shocks, r-motion, t-motion, 7S, blah, blah, blah.
I see your point, but maybe cheaper shocks (non-clicker ATCs?) can justify a PC value edition? And it would be the old chassis and people would be willing to pay more for the new Catalyst chassis. And don't think you can currently get cheap shocks on a PC.

Years ago my buddy bought his daughter a brand new, current year Sabre Cat 500 LXR for stupid cheap money, like a couple of thousand dollars cheaper than any other liquid cooled Cat and it had basic, but quality rebuildable shocks. Cat needs something like this again to win / win back customers.

In a big year, my wife MIGHT do 500 miles and she could care less about r-motion, t-motion, 7S, blah, blah, blah, as well. She cares more about a "soft" ride, being warm, and not having a sore thumb. LOL
 

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The industry as a whole needs more sleds like the 500 LXR. I was out of riding for a number of years as life and raising kids got it the way. When I got back in, it was a real challenge to find budget minded sleds that were good for new or younger riders. And this was way before the crazy used pricing we're seeing now. I ended up with a 4S Phazer for my son and a used 600 IQ for my daughter.

Right now the ladder goes 120, 200, Blast/Venom/EVO/NEO, then full size adult sleds with big engines. Polaris still has the 550 fan in a million different models but I refuse to own a carb sled with all the technology that's available today. Doo has the 600 Sport and that's a legitimate option also.

I feel with Cat having the 120, 200 and 400 steps in the ladder now they are well positioned to offer the next step. They have many gaps to fill in their lineup and getting riders is the easiest way. The reason I'm a Polaris rider now is because my first sled was a Polaris. My cousin is the same way with Ski Doo and I'm sure there are thousands of people with the same story. I've owned every brand and color their is but Polaris will always be "my brand". And it's simply because it was my first.
Cat needs something full sized to undercut the 80+ HP 600cc liquid cooled MXZ Sport at $9,149 USD.
Yes, this speaks to the disconnect with their customers Cat has struggled with in recent years. I don't mind the Blast completely understand the idea behind it. I think they missed the target though and the same can be said for the Evo and Neo.
I've ridden the Blast and it's small but fun. I can see it being a lot of fun for a 100 lb person. Cat just needs to price it in line with the Neo; maybe between the $6,399 Neo and $7,199 Neo+, at the current $8,699 USD MSRP it won't steal customers away from Doo.
 

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Then why the hell wont they build a triple??!!! There are enough posts on this forum alone to let all of them know that we’d buy them…
Because the return on investment is terrible when you look at the R&D, tooling, and EPA certifications cost against the actual sales numbers / revenue potential. Plus a boosted motor would out perform at NA triple 2-stroke. And except for the lake and really big field, a capable rider on a newer 600 2-stroke can beat the more powerful sleds on a trail with turns and such.

Plus when the radar gun and the stop watch comes out, the NA triple 2-strokes are not as fast as everyone remembers.

 

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A 1963 Impala with a 409 isn't all that fast by todays standards but it's still cooler than a Subaru BRZ.
True.

But if you want to look cool, older sleds can be had cheap. I love it when the old triples and vintage sleds pull into the watering holes ..... I wouldn't want to ride them for more than a couple miles though.
 

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That's right. Marketing is not just advertising. Marketing is product, promotion, and pricing. Marketing does the research on what they think they consumer wants and what the consumer will pay for it. And then (in most companies) marketing gives their requirements (including cost and timeframe) to engineering.

If you see something lame, like the Pontiac Aztek, that wasn't engineering that came up with that POS, it was marketing that told engineering to design that POS.

Can demand be created? Yes, just look how Polaris created the recreational Side by Side market.
 

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I beg to differ, my 96 ZRT 600 did 114.7 on radar with just clutching.......thats 125hp......it now takes 165hp and an 850 to run that speed. Those triple were fast.
But what if you lower that 850 to the same profile and stance of the old triples?
 

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Didn't Yamaha try to do that with the recent SRX?
Yes, they lowered it slightly and I think gave it track with 1" lug I think, all in an effort to make it a lake king.

My point is, the high suspension, tall lug height, and tall profile of the modern 850s all hurt the acceleration and top speed. These things that make it a great trail and bump sled, hurt the acceleration and top speed. Now take a modern 800 or 850 and lower it, give it a low profile track, and tune it to chug fuel and oil (essentially making it a crappy trail sled), and you'd be surprised how well it will stand up against everyone's memories of what a 2-stroke triple would do. The other day at work, a guy was telling us what a crappy trail sled his Mach Z triple was; he admitted that it was fun on the lake for 2 to 3 passes but that was it.
 

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The aerodynamics on the new sleds is terrible.
Years ago the short windshields would give you some top end speed but now its the other way around because there is no place to duck below the bodywork.Triangles on top of triangles isnt good for airflow.
Ever wonder why the factory cross country race sleds come with real windshields??? Because they reduce aerodynamic drag, increase top speed, lessen rider fatigue, and make for a warmer ride.

LOL at the trail riding, Johnny Snocross Wanna-bees that are killing their top speed and freezing their you-know-whats off. I hate riding with those guys because they constantly bitch about the cold and can't handle a big mile day. But hey, their sleds look like a Snocross race machine parked outside of the tavern while the real riders are out racking up miles.
 

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She would not give me a specific weight of the trail sled but she said it's "about" 100 lbs lighter than the old chassis!
Yesterday's Super Trax article said about 10% lighter (~50 lbs lighter) than the ProCross. I was thinking that 100 lbs sounded a little too big of a number.

Hopefully, Cat can offer the new Catalyst and the old ProCross at the same time .... making the Catalyst a premium, Spring order model (with track options) and offer the Procross as an "in season" value sled with a basic shock package. That's how Cat could start winning customers.
 

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Yeah, maybe they will keep supplying Yamaha with Procross based 2 and 4-strokes.

A 50 lb weight reduction is far more legitimate and believable than at 100 lb weight loss ..... unless the starting point was a Yamaha Apex.
 
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