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First post for the 2020 riding season !

Check out the current snow at the LHSC clubhouse. Lots of cameras to look at the snow there!

Steve webcam guy
 

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Hey Steve, that camera is depressing right now. Our Christmas to NY trip got pushed back to the 11th if conditions in the UP or Maine continue to improve. In this sport we have to always be looking at a plan A and a plan B :) Anyway, I was really hoping this was going to be the winter that I got to ride the LH area a few times. Hopefully it will get better.
 

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With an underwhelming winter and 6-8 inches with a base at the top of the LHs last night and today, opening the gates would have been a nice touch by DCNR. Just sayin'....
 

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I'm guessing their just used to not doing anything at this point. It's sad five inches on the ground and I thought about going for minute..
 

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Looks like desperation has set in for a few... just an observation from the club cam.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk
 

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Depression season as indicated by the number of posts....4.5 miles in the yard and 880 in the upper UP - zero rides locally was definitely a first!
 

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second time in my life time, for my local trails to NEVER open even for 1 day, and both happen in the past 5 yrs
NEPASNO trails
almost 25 yrs of trails and only twice they never had snow to ride, PA is getting to be a depressing state to own a snowmobile and HOPE to ride it here!
the good news MAYBE might be, trails here are working on getting atv access to some of them, they got 11 miles legally in so far, so maybe they can get more of the 200 miles or so of trails open for ATV's, as at least we can ride them without snow??
 

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There is a push to open more trails for ATV's in Pa as well. Not so sure we'll see any sections that have a lot of private property open that way as lots of it is farmland connected and those owners won't allow ATV's due to idiot damage. The idiot being the user behind the wheel. Lots of illegal access here already and hence the State Forestry and State Parks want nothing to do with them.

Steve
 

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PA has become very depressing these past five years. We got a couple rides in further north by Cherry Springs. That means that there was not enough snow to ride from the club and had to trailer.

Maine has been great the last four years now. Fantastic groomed trails and very nice people. The only "negative" is the long drive pulling the trailer around several larger cities.
May be easier to sale the sleds and trailer here and just rent a sled in Maine No purchase of sleds or trailer,no registration fees PA or Maine, PA, no trailer registration or insurance costs, no maintenance costs, easier through traffic, better MPG for tow vehicle, break down, no problem dealer replaces sleds. Time to start crunching some numbers $$
 

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There is a push to open more trails for ATV's in Pa as well. Not so sure we'll see any sections that have a lot of private property open that way as lots of it is farmland connected and those owners won't allow ATV's due to idiot damage. The idiot being the user behind the wheel. Lots of illegal access here already and hence the State Forestry and State Parks want nothing to do with them.

Steve
O agree with you the idiot factor is a big problem in Pa, but I also feel its due to the fact folks have so few legal options to ride here in Pa .
and it shouldn;t need to be this way
its a FACT< PA. has the most state and federal; lands east of the Mississippi
from game lands, to fed lands
we have millions of miles of dirt roads thru these places that could easily be opened up for ATV use, if the depts would get off there asses and start doing so
all the more so the Game commission, that is always bitching they need money(yet sit on again million + acres of prime timber and now have NG on many lands)
there always blaming there OLD rules that were made up before modern times as an excuse, rather than working on how to change things to stay more viable and appease the general public at the same time!
the FACT that LEGAL atv owners in PA< are required to carry insurance, have a lic plate/registered atv and all, and almost zero legal places to ride them is a SCAM
if atv owners(legal one following rules) are paying for these things, the state should be allowing them to be used in more places and ways !
Pa might not have so many trespassers riding and being idiots again, IF they had access to some more legal places to ride, after all MOST residents of PA< live close a game land, it was the game commissions game plan to have it this way, and its always there
But our game dept, is IMO< not the best for looking after the people, there always more worried about $$$ and power
they screwed up our forest sitting by letting deer damage happen, they lost out wild pheasants, our state game bird the grouse is now almost gone, wood cock are far and few if any
there now over doing it on bear seasons, going to screw that up real fast with such over sized seasons,
and these are ALL game animals they were supposed to be protecting, yet are now almost gone(deer and bears holding on for now )
yet they never admit they screwed up or its there fault
always passing the buck on blame, even though there JOB is to protect the game in PA, hence name
GAME COMMISSION!

SO< YES 100% PA< need to step up and open more places for BOTH atv's and snowmobiles when the seasons allow
just think all the $$ they can make selling permits to access game lands or federal lands
and again, the trails and roads are already there sitting empty, 99% of the time,, yet paid for by tax payers and hunters!

and there sure ain;t no shortage of ATV owners in PA, I bet that would pay to ride them, even if only a few months out of the yr
might also make a lot of private land owners happier, having less trespassing on there lands!
 

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Mrbb,
I've been part of the snowmobiling org for a long time as you probably already know. I was involved in the PSSA for over 15 years and gave it up a couple years ago due to my job change and work requirements for being out of town. I've seen first hand how the state has treated the ATV'rs here and taken their money and given them nothing. I too own a ATV (2001 Traxter 500) that sure would be nice to ride on some state property that taxpayers pay for and shared by all. But, the State Forestry and State Parks do not feel that same way. They don't believe that ATV's will be able to stay legal on State land due to the lawlessness that already occurs in all places. They said as much in meetings and want nothing to do with ATV's. Fact. So, what's the answer. IMO they are giving out a bone by just giving back as much as they do to ATV grants with the recreational parks (private) that are available now. The problem is if you allow ATV's onto State property (including gamelands) there isn't enough enforcement resources to ensure compliance. IMO and I believe in the State's opinion you can't hire enough enforcement to ensure the ATV lawlessness wouldn't occur. Now, if you'd like to give up some of your rights by allowing every machine to have a tracking device and then use those tracking devices to track all of them on state property and ensure that by policing that if one was caught without one of them that their machine would be impounded and sold from underneath them and force the rider to go to jail or other extreme measures then you would have a chance with the State. Enforcement is part of the problem. And a big issue why ATV's are not allowed even now. Just due to the lawlessness of them. Good or bad. There it is.

Steve
 

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Mrbb,
I've been part of the snowmobiling org for a long time as you probably already know. I was involved in the PSSA for over 15 years and gave it up a couple years ago due to my job change and work requirements for being out of town. I've seen first hand how the state has treated the ATV'rs here and taken their money and given them nothing. I too own a ATV (2001 Traxter 500) that sure would be nice to ride on some state property that taxpayers pay for and shared by all. But, the State Forestry and State Parks do not feel that same way. They don't believe that ATV's will be able to stay legal on State land due to the lawlessness that already occurs in all places. They said as much in meetings and want nothing to do with ATV's. Fact. So, what's the answer. IMO they are giving out a bone by just giving back as much as they do to ATV grants with the recreational parks (private) that are available now. The problem is if you allow ATV's onto State property (including gamelands) there isn't enough enforcement resources to ensure compliance. IMO and I believe in the State's opinion you can't hire enough enforcement to ensure the ATV lawlessness wouldn't occur. Now, if you'd like to give up some of your rights by allowing every machine to have a tracking device and then use those tracking devices to track all of them on state property and ensure that by policing that if one was caught without one of them that their machine would be impounded and sold from underneath them and force the rider to go to jail or other extreme measures then you would have a chance with the State. Enforcement is part of the problem. And a big issue why ATV's are not allowed even now. Just due to the lawlessness of them. Good or bad. There it is.

Steve
Well, I will have to say I sort of dis agree with you on many points
Frist, there are SOME State parks that have LEGAL ATV trails
but there far and few, but there are some<
so this fact is incorrect if your saying there are no ATV"S allowed NOW on state or federal lands in PA

Second, the state game dept does allaow atv' use on some lands, but under the handi cap restrictions
so there being drivien there as well, just by those with needs that qualify for!

Next
you say there will not be enough law enforcement to handle things' BS<
for several reasons,
first off, the added income from atv permits and use on lands can go to hiring more help if needed
the state can again start selling some of its timber and have more NG on many of its lands to again ADD more people to do what it needed
the income and resources are THERE if they would get off there asses and go do something to get them, rather than making excuses, and crying about lake of minoy!

NEXT< there are TONS of states already that allow atv use on there state and federal lands and they don';t have an ARMY of law enforcement officers and get by JUST FINE
there man power per square mile is NOT much different
so, when they cry about lack of officers to enforce things, thats' a load of CRAP< as all there trying to say is everyone is going to break the laws 24/7
and that isn;t how it works
as stated before, its normally a few bad apples that ruin things and NOT the majority that does the wrong! so, trying to label everyone as being bad is poor logic, and just another excuse to NOT even try to do something!

Game wardens in PA are famous for there law enforcement powers, there pretty much at the HIGHEST level of any agency in PA
, that can stop you for about ANYTHING,
YET when it comes to trespassing, they CLAIOM ist NOT there JOB,
again, its BS and and ac excuse they use when it pleases them
as if they wish to DUI you, stop you for speeding, they again CAN< they have every law enforcement powers to do so LEGALLY
so, that also means they can enforce trespassing, yet they refuse to
pass the buck, and NOT want the hassle of helping a land owner is all it is!
they use there powers when it works for them and DON"T when they don';t want added work!

so them crying about not enough law enforcement to STOP folks from doing wrong again is BS and just an excuse
if ATV use was state wide, ALL law enforcement would be involved, JUST as they are NOW
and IF the State Fed open more lands up to atv us
the revenue again can be used to HIRE more HELP if needed!
SO, I don;t buy the excuse you listed

talk to other states where atv use is more lax and open to the general public, and see how many officers are per sq mile and try and tell me there's a BIG difference, ., as there isn;t!

its a simple FACT the game commission in PA just doesn;t like or allow changes, they like the FEW things they do and that's ALL they want to do!
and they always just want more $$ to do things they already do! which honestly if you look back at there track record on wild life in PA< its NOT that great a job they been doing with it
raises should be based on performance and not just given out because they complain they need more $$$
and or IF they get more $$< there should be an improvement in things, not going backwards!

and before you say I am bashing the game dept here, or dis like them.

as NO ,
I am 100% glad we have them
as it would be a lot worse without them!

but I am 100% saying, they could do a LOT better with what all they have to work with!
and there excuses don't hold any water in the real world!
 

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MrBB, Feel free to pass this onto your Pa legislator. Obviously you feel a need to escalate this to someone. I would suggest starting with your local legislator found here.

And then move onto the Governors office and maybe a State Senate person here.

Steve
PS - let us all know how it goes. As it's been a black hole forever and that's with the Pssa persueing it for years and years and years.
 

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MrBB, Feel free to pass this onto your Pa legislator. Obviously you feel a need to escalate this to someone. I would suggest starting with your local legislator found here.

And then move onto the Governors office and maybe a State Senate person here.

Steve
PS - let us all know how it goes. As it's been a black hole forever and that's with the Pssa persueing it for years and years and years.
I have voiced my views on this matter in many ways over the yrs, and also found it to be a waste of time mostly, as again, there are some folks in places of power in the game commission that refuse to budget and fall back on there ancient wording in there beginning rules and such of the commissions start up!
as I stated earlier, the game dept, has power over many things in PA< and they can mostly make there rules as they wish, and they DON"T want to do any extra work period than what they do now!, BUT they do want mroe money to do it!

I have called them out many times at there own meetings over the yrs and they always failed to offer any real answer at them
my local State rep's have also heard from me many times!

as I said, the excuses you gave are a lot of what they gave, and there all BS excuses and just that excuses.

if PA wanted to open lands up to ATV's it can be done safely and without major issue'
s and the state could make a LOT of money in the process!, from residents that would PAY to ride here as well as NON residents!

add in if the game dept would timbre more which would greatly help wildlife in the process, something they SHOULD be doing more of period!

and some more limited NG harvesting on some state lands
they would have plenty of money to cover there excuses!

why they don't??
I have no honest clue , other then again, there LAZY and DON"T ant to take the actions needed to get things done!
and they LIKE having the powers they do now and don;'t want to loose any!
ego's are a part of this too IMO!
 

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I'll agree with the waste of time. I gave up on it all partly (mostly) due to that. Why bang your head against the tree over and over ? Life is too short for that. I'll enjoy riding when i do "out of state". Put the money where someone wants it. PA sure as heck doesn't. They'll take my taxes though !
Four of us went to Newberry Michigan. The local economy there got my $1000 plus the other three guys that went as well. I doubt they were unhappy to see us. And the rest of the hotel we stayed at was mostly guess where from ? PA yep.

Steve
 

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I'll agree with the waste of time. I gave up on it all partly (mostly) due to that. Why bang your head against the tree over and over ? Life is too short for that. I'll enjoy riding when i do "out of state". Put the money where someone wants it. PA sure as heck doesn't. They'll take my taxes though !
Four of us went to Newberry Michigan. The local economy there got my $1000 plus the other three guys that went as well. I doubt they were unhappy to see us. And the rest of the hotel we stayed at was mostly guess where from ? PA yep.

Steve
well I haven't fully given up, but I have stopped wasting extra time trying

right now like I said, my local trails have just got 11 miles open for atv use and working on m ore, so that is at least a step in the right direction, even if its more of a pay for access system
maybe some day the state of PA will realize what there missing and get smarter
all the more so if snows don't come back to where they used to be!

and sled registration fee's start to drop a lot!
as IMO< its all about the $$< when they finally realize there loosing more and more, sooner or later a light bulb comes on some where LOL
 

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well I haven't fully given up, but I have stopped wasting extra time trying

right now like I said, my local trails have just got 11 miles open for atv use and working on m ore, so that is at least a step in the right direction, even if its more of a pay for access system
maybe some day the state of PA will realize what there missing and get smarter
all the more so if snows don't come back to where they used to be!

and sled registration fee's start to drop a lot!
as IMO< its all about the $$< when they finally realize there loosing more and more, sooner or later a light bulb comes on some where LOL

I'm guessing neither you or Steve is familiar with the Central Mountain ATV Association. They have been doing great things with opening up riding in North Central PA and do several organized ATV rides each month.
 

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I'm guessing neither you or Steve is familiar with the Central Mountain ATV Association. They have been doing great things with opening up riding in North Central PA and do several organized ATV rides each month.
well you'd be wrong with me
I do know of them, and other atv clubs and places in PA
I even said so in my post that there ARE some places in PA< but very FEW, when you compare how much land there is in PA and how little is open to ATV riders!
and the State owns a a TON of the lands that could and SHOULD be open to atv riders!, if the state depts that own the lands got off there asses and did some work to make it happen!
 

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well you'd be wrong with me
I do know of them, and other atv clubs and places in PA
I even said so in my post that there ARE some places in PA< but very FEW, when you compare how much land there is in PA and how little is open to ATV riders!
and the State owns a a TON of the lands that could and SHOULD be open to atv riders!, if the state depts that own the lands got off there asses and did some work to make it happen!
Your never going to be able to ride all the land the state owns but there is a lot of public lands available to ride. My complaint has always been having to trailer from one riding area to another. Having visited the Hatfield McCoy area last year I realized PA actually has just as much riding available, it's just spread out over small pockets of area for riding.

CMATVA is working to connect these riding areas and having some success working with our legislators and DCNR. You will eventually be able to ride from Snow Shoe area near State College to New York connecting Bloody Skillet area to Whiskey Springs to Lyman Run Park to the vast legal riding of township roads to the north. The connection from Bloody Skillet to Renovo is the most challenging but according to their last meeting notes they are getting close to connecting Renovo to Whiskey Springs and onto Cross Fork which will give you access to services like Gas, Food, and Lodging on your ATV. The club has already opened up north of Cross Fork to New York with Gas & Food available in Genesee & Germania.
 

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Your never going to be able to ride all the land the state owns but there is a lot of public lands available to ride. My complaint has always been having to trailer from one riding area to another. Having visited the Hatfield McCoy area last year I realized PA actually has just as much riding available, it's just spread out over small pockets of area for riding.

CMATVA is working to connect these riding areas and having some success working with our legislators and DCNR. You will eventually be able to ride from Snow Shoe area near State College to New York connecting Bloody Skillet area to Whiskey Springs to Lyman Run Park to the vast legal riding of township roads to the north. The connection from Bloody Skillet to Renovo is the most challenging but according to their last meeting notes they are getting close to connecting Renovo to Whiskey Springs and onto Cross Fork which will give you access to services like Gas, Food, and Lodging on your ATV. The club has already opened up north of Cross Fork to New York with Gas & Food available in Genesee & Germania.
well after spending yrs in WV and Ohio and other states on the east cpoast
PA< has NO where near as much public land access for atv riding as either op these smaller states with less state land!
I have no clue where you thinking PA has lots of land open to atv's

as it really doesn't
when you look at the amount of land owned by the state of PA and how little of it is open to atv's
its a JOKE
there are more places in PA open to snowmobiles, than ATV, and atv
s can be used all yr, and they pay for like features(if your legal again, you have ins, a lic plate and state registration on your atv, like a sled, yet have less places to ride it legally!)

as for state game lands, I never said ALL of them should be open or , maybe better wording is, ALL parts of one to be open,(they can very easily keep sections closed and still allow some places to be open)
but the facts are there are millions of miles of roads on game lands and federal lands in PA< that COULD be opened if the sate got off there asses and opened more places for atv's
and the state would benefit from making money,
in both charging for permits/access to things, as well as from tourist traving to ride here
look at all the folks that travel as you stated to WV, and other places to ride

90% of all places in PA< are PAY for ACCESS on PRIVATE lands, NOT public access!
and again, PA<> has the LARGEST amount of public lands on the east coast! so they have more land to work with than any state on the east coast!

its a shame they don't offer more access!

all the more so when a state is always trying to MAKE more money off its residents, and every part of the government is always crying they need more income!

well there is ways to make money and make folks happy!

opening up STATE lands, will get a LOT of the treepassers riding illegally in PA< off there lands, NOT all, but I would bet it would change a lot of the places foplks ride!
making the state money again, and land owners happier!
our fuel tax is insane and our roads SUCK, its a scam, , just like having to register a atv and insure it and plate it, and have almost zero access to the pubic lands to use ATV's on!

public lands, paid for by who??
PA has many public lands, forested area's in 5,000 to 10,000+ acres in size and ZERO access to them for ATV's
all over the state!

ain't no logical reason there not open in some way!
Minus some agency's are ignorant to change, like the game commission for one!
they like money, but don't like doing much work IMO!
 
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