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Discussion Starter #1
After having all updates done and finally getting to ride my F7 sno pro I find out that the 1st time my oil pump was adjusted they shortened the rod 3 turns. Well I made it 16 miles the first time with premix in before melting the mag side down. So I take it back to the dealer and they put a new jug and piston in and readjust the oil pump rod to its shortest posistion (7 more turns). I made it 6 miles this time with premix in before melting the mag side down again. So I ask the dumb question Do we really know if the oil pump was the culprit on F7 burndowns?
 

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First year sled, it will take some time to know for sure!
Myself, I dont beleive it, but that subject has been beat to death. just my 2 cents
 

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One of my friend got the new F6 3 or 4 weeks ago. He did about 1,500 miles and the engine melted also on MAG side. Gas/oil ratio was around 80/1. Dealer did not find anything and only increased oil pump flow. The F6 is now around 500 miles with the new MAG cylinder and looks OK...
HDen
 

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One thing that is VERY important with this motor is proper warm-up. You MUST let it warm up until both the right and left side running boards are good and warm. Keep in mind that the fire cat has a bypass that only circulates coolent w/i the motor until it warms up. If you are loading the motor (ie riding it) and the bypass opens, the engine is going to get a shot of VERY cold coolent thats been sitting back in the running boards (ever throw a hot pan into cold water, it will crack). I've seen people on this site respond to those of us that have been saying you have to warm these sleds up 15 even 20 minutes with comments like, "why should I have to warm up this sled any differently than my old __________" or "this is just another problem with the Firecat!." I am not saying this is the case in every (cold) siezure situation and I do think AC and the dealers bear some responsibility for letting consumers know what is required that is different for the Firecat (ie warm up proceedures). That being said, I would guess that those that have had no problems with their motors have warmed them up until both running boards are warm. Those that don't (NOT saying you Dipstick) risk at the minimum premature wear and tear and at worst, siezure. :eek:
 

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Discussion Starter #7
I am riding with 3 other F7 owners and I start and ride mine just like they do when its running. And yes we do allow a warm up period. All I know is it is very frustrating to purchase my 1st new sled in 15 years and first it doesn't snow so I spend an additional $1500.00 on accesories to bolt on it(no motor stuff or clutch) because I was bored. Then it finally snows and I was one of the lucky people that cat drew my number out of the hat to get a problem child!
 

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I ride with two other f7s as stated before, and all three of us warm up the same amount of time, two out off the three sleds have burned down, twice. And the one is problemless! The other two sleds have been flowed and rebuilt! About 1100 miles on rebuild then burn down again.I personally say its the ecu not the oil pump!
 

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Steve,

What makes you think it is the ECU? "Burned down" seems to be a catch all phrase for the motor quit working. Did you see the pistons/cylinders of the "burned down" sleds. If yes, describe what they look like or if you have pictures, even better. I will almost positively guarantee that the motor did NOT fail due to a lean condition (the traditional meaning for the phrase "burn down"). I will also guarantee that it is NOT the ECU because of several reasons. I will not list them all off but here are the two major ones: First, it would affect every Firecat. The only difference between ECU's is circle, square, or triangle to match the throttle bodies; the fuel delivery program is identical. Second reason, this would be very easy to fix and MUCH less expensive than repairing motors. Simply reprogram the ECU's. There is no financial incentive for Cat to dodge this issue. I thinks that most of the FCat motors that have failed have done so for two reasons; lack of oil and coolent related issues (blocked heat exchangers, improper warm up or trapped air). Both of these factors can be checked and corrected by either yourself or the dealer. One thing I would add, many people are running oil ratio's in 70-80:1 and that is NOT enough oil. If you are running ratios that high and you have bottomed out the connecting rod, then you have a beef with cat and get them to correct it. If you are choosing not to do the oil rod update or only dialing it down to get 70:1, you are cutting it very close. If you read the label of any manufacturers two stoke oil, they all say 50:1 ratio. If you are hearing from them that it is okay to run higher than this, get them to put it into writing; I guarantee they will never do this. I'm not trying to hammer on you Steve, I just want us to be clear about why a motor goes down. When a motor goes down, describe what the pistons and cylinders look like, they NEVER lie. If there is a design flaw (I don't think there is), the only way we're going to get to the bottom of it is to provide clear information, saying it burned down means nothing.
 

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Okay here i go.I have an opinion and its only an opinion.I don't own a f7 i own a f5,but i have been reading all the posts about the burndowns.,and alot of people are thinking that these are cold seizures,from not properly warming the machine up.Now to get to my opinion if i were to own a f7 i think i would put a coolant warmer on it.I know that it will not work if your out in the middle of nowhere but at home or the hotels maybee this could cut down on the cold seizures,if thats the problem.Let me know what your opinion is on this.I dont care if you call me a dumbass or not,i like to hear honest opinions and dont get bothered by them,i can handle it. :p
 

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.600-liter, dont worry about hammerring on me, my buddies and I would love to get to the bottom of this problem. I didnt put all the details because I thought everyone had heard them many times over. There are three of us that ride together, all standard f7s, green one now has 2400 miles on it and it is almost flawless, a few loose bolts here and there and just lost a idler wheel, very dependable sled.
Then we have a red one, seized mag side cylinder at 1.2 miles[yes 1.2 miles] first half throttle run!Siezed so hard couldnt even pull it over after it cooled down, had it rebuilt and 1100 miles later seized the mag side again. The other cylinder and piston looks like brand new, at 1100 miles it still has the pattern on the cylinder walls, it looks great on the pto side.
Now we have the black one, that one is mine. 392miles on it and seized both cylinders bad. The pto side piston was melted and the rings were broke in many pieces. The mag side was scuffed hard and seized but the rings were stiill in one peice. Now I have 1514 miles on it and it is going back to the dealer. The pto side is in worse shape than the mag side again.
All three sleds run the cat oil and all run on the ethanol mode all the time. The dealer said it would be safer if we ran on that mode. The red one and the green one have been running 93 octane. The guy with the red one said if the green one was running 93 and didnt have a problem then he would try it, didnt work! But i have been running 87 octane and got almost the same result!Didnt work! The green one and the red used a gallon of oil each in 1000 miles. I have checked my oil consumption many times and I am at 58-1 on the average.
The dealer flowed both coolant systems.
The dealer has been pretty decent, the only thing that puzzles me about the dealer is, he told us that the ethanol regular switch changes the timing and according to everyone on here it adds 3% more fuel! I started a little war on here about that and I didnt really mean too, I still dont see it in my manuel!
Do you now see where I am coming from? Nothing makes sense, we generally all ride together so they are warmed up the same!The red one is really puzzling because that one cylinder is like brand new after two seizures on the other side? :wacko:
Its either ECU or COOLANT not the oil or gas.
You tell me what you think? any help is needed!
 

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go figure!!

we ride with 9 f7's not all the time but between us we always ride together in some combo. out of the 9 there were 2 meltdowns 1 cold siesure and 1 iced up smart valve (no dry gas) and on 2 others cracked pipes. thats it no other probs all with miles from 900 to 2500

the worst part is that the 2 that burned down thought they might if they rode them
 

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2 meltdowns out of 9......Whats that about 22% of the sleds had major problems?
I wonder what the % is for engine problems for the all the F7's on the trails.
Just engine Not brroken pipes or slide rails or any of the other recalls. (Updates)
Any guesses?
 

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Steve,

Thanks for all of the info. I'll answer your ethenol switch first since its the easiest. All it does is add 3% more fuel (which is about the same as two jets). It does not affect the timing at all. I have been running in regular mode all of the time from -15 - +30 and have not had any issues. Your problem (especially the red one) sounds like the ECU may not be communicating correctly with the injectors or the throttle boddies. If the piston is melting, it has definately gotten very hot in there. One more question; did the piston show signs of detonation (pitting on the crown of piston, worse case it will look like someone shot it with buckshot). I would check a couple of things before I started blaming the ECU. First I would make sure that the ECU matched the throttle bodies and the injectors. The ECU will have a symbol on it (square, triangle or a circle) and it should match the symbol on both injectors and the throttle bodies. Point of clarification, there is no "better" symboled ECU to have (if everything else matches). The important thing is that EVERYTHING matches. If something doesn't match, the ECU will be telling it to do something that is out of spec for that particular part, NO GOOD. The other area I would check are the sensors, particularily the throttle position sensor (tps) and the coolent temperature. Maybe also the injectors to see if there not constricted and to see if they are operating correctly. Your cases definately sound strange but there is an answer, we just need to get to the bottom of it. One thing I would ask the dealer to do if all of the above checks out okay and you still suspect the ECU. Ask for a new one to try. It doesn't take any time to swap out and at least then you will be eliminating (or identifying) that as the reason for the motor failures. I'm not saying this to rub salt into any ones wounds but my dealer sold 22 (he's a smaller dealer, great service) F7's, first one came back last week when the drive shaft walked out of the bearing (over 3000 miles on it). I also have a friend who works for a rather large dealer in the twin cities of MN. They sold over 100 F7's and they have had 4 back for serious failures. Now we are not racking up the major miles that some are due to a lack of snow (I have 1500 miles on) but some (most?) of these major failures seem to be taking place at very low miles so I would think we'd see our share of issues. Any other info about signs of detonation would be helpful. Other than that I hope I gave you at least a couple of other things to check. Good luck and look forward to hearing how you make out.
 

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Discussion Starter #15
One thing I forgot to mention about my second siezure was that right before it happened my speedo went crazy jumping from 35mph to 100+ mph back and forth. When it siezed the speedo was locked on 60mph. Any thoughts on this?
 
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