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easy fix. shitcan the stock skis rode a sled last year with slp strait line tracking skis and it was like having power steering. bought a set for mine this year but have yet to get enough snow to put them on. dont want to ruin them on rocks
 

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Originally posted by zr5carb@Jan 29 2006, 08:46 PM
easy fix. shitcan the stock skis rode a sled last year with slp strait line tracking skis and it was like having power steering. bought a set for mine this year but have yet to get enough snow to put them on. dont want to ruin them on rocks
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Thats like saying you can make a racebike handle prefect by just putting good tires on it.......silly.

Not to mention, getting some springs and setting the sled up is cheaper than ski's. And then you can still get the ski's and have it that much better :div20:
 

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Discussion Starter #23
Tomorrow is test day!!! Sqidd, makes a lot of sense. The one variable in the equation that most can't explain is the Fox floats. I've had more than one racer from the CSRA tell me to swap them out for a set of Ohlins. They scrap them all on the 440 SP as soon as they get them. I've already got the limiter pulled up an inch and a half and the front spring at about 10m, but I never thought of the bathroom scales!!! Makes sense instead of just fooling around trying to hit the mark.
 

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Originally posted by FirstTraxx@Jan 29 2006, 08:58 PM
Tomorrow is test day!!! Sqidd,  makes a lot of sense. The one variable in the equation that most can't explain is the Fox floats. I've had more than one racer from the CSRA tell me to swap them out for a set of Ohlins. They scrap them all on the 440 SP as soon as they get them. I've already got the limiter pulled up an inch and a half and the front spring at about 10m, but I never thought of the bathroom scales!!! Makes sense instead of just fooling around trying to hit the mark.
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Yeah, I have no expirience with the floats either. I have a brand new set sitting on the shelf, but all of our sleds (except one) have Ohlins on them. I would imagine the floats are not the best shock for SnoX, but I don't see why they can't be a good trail shock. I would stick with them until I ran into a dead end.

From what I understand you set them up with air pressure instead of spring preload, no big deal. Follow the steps above and when it's time to set the sag in front set the air pressure to get approx 3" of sag out of it. They should work fine.

At the end of the season we will be adding a sled suspension service to our roadrace suspension services at the shop. By next fall we should have a comprehensive setup procudure and good valving for the stock Fox shocks for trail riders. When it's all done a Firecat owner will be able to send us their shocks, we will re-spring and re-valve them, send them back with detailed setup instructions so you can just plug and play.

We have our Ohlins right where we want them already, we are going to Ohlins HQ next month with a few sets of Fox shocks and we will be revalving them and running tests on their shock dyno (I wish I had one but they are 10G's) to mimic the attributes of the Ohlins shocks. We will most likely be converting them all over to two stage valving which is a must when you are dealing with everything from stutter bumps to big hits while landing.

When all is said and done a Firecat owner should be able to get their sled set up realy well for about $750-850. I know that sounds like a lot, but all the people who have ridden my sled would gladly pay that to get their sled to work the same.

And if it makes you feel any better I have some guys on our Roadrace stuff with over $5000 into their suspension :Wow1: Sledders get off cheap :div20:
 

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Here's what you don't do. I weight 190 and have the 1.375 track with no studs, 75 PSI in the floats, and the rear springs set to the stiffest for jumping and racing cross country. I get ate up by everything in the corners. :banghead:
 

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Originally posted by FirstTraxx@Jan 29 2006, 09:09 PM
Were did you get the weight figures??? After finding a good set up??
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Yeah, I got the sled pretty close to where I wanted it by just guessing at first. When the sled was new I put it on the scales and set it up so each scale had 25% of teh weight. Then I went up and rode it and just kept stopping and adjusting the limiters( I have a set of these, which are a must Adjustable Limiters) until I got them where I wanted them. Then I put it back on the scales and noted the changes.

If you have not been able to tell yet I am kind of a geek when it comes to setup :beerchug:
 

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Discussion Starter #29
Thanks for the input/advice, I'm determined to make this thing work!! I'll let you know how it turns out, either railing or into a tree!!!
 

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Hey squidd, great advice. I like the zip tie idea too. If you don't mind me asking; how much do you weigh?
 

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Well I have Ohlins as well and tried every setup possible...you are right about the center spring being too stiff. I started w/ a sno pro, and only weigh 185....Waaayyy too stiff. I bought Ohlins, still too stiff. I called Ohlins and got a lighter spring (25lbs lighter) and still too stiff...I'm ordering another spring to be even lighter. The next one should do it. So your 10lb lighter spring is NOT the answer....then you say to put the back suspension mount in the upper hole and pull the limter up????? Your just losing suspension for nothing!!!!! Put the mounting hole in the lower one and leave the straps. Same effect, more suspension. You started off fine, then you make me wonder......
 

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To add a little bite to the front end you need to LOWER the pressure in the Floats. Making the front end softer shifts the weight forward.

Are you using the stock carbide setup? If so- get a set of carbides with at least 6 inchs. More would be better with the studs you have. Don't remove studs- add carbide.

Putting the coupling blocks on stiff is a good idea. Keep the front skid shock set at soft and make sure the torsion springs are set to the softest position.

The sled will rail when set up properly :div20:
 

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So your 10lb lighter spring is NOT the answer

Where did I say I went with a 10lb lighter spring? I actualy went with a 15% lighter spring.

then you say to put the back suspension mount in the upper hole and pull the limter up????? Your just losing suspension for nothing!!!!!

You are correct, I am loosing about 10mm (not much) of travel at the front of the skid from pulling the straps up. But the rear has the exact same travel no matter what hole it is mounted in. Keep in mind the 03 model sleds didn't have the option of two holes, they only had the upper one.

Put the mounting hole in the lower one and leave the straps. Same effect, more suspension.

Actaualy my goal has nothing to do with suspension travel, it has to do with the center of gravity. With the skid mounted in the lower hole the sled is a bit tippy, mounting it in the upper hole lowers the CG and the slad will corner flatter. If I was jumping the thing all the time I would probably leave it in the lower hole, but there is almsot zero trade off running it in the top hole and the sled stays a lot more planted on the trail mid corner.

Speaking of being to high in back........another reason these sleds are so tippy is because the torsion springs are way too stiff. The back end of the sled is always jacked sky high because of the stiff springs. The sled needs the back end to compress a bitb while cornering to keep the CG low.

Another way to think about it is......if there were no bumps you would slam the sled down as far as possible for the best cornering results. But we have bumps to deal with. So the problem to solve is how low can you run the sled and still handle the bumps. If we were running Sno X it would be the other way arround, we would be setting them up to jump off of buildings....then go arround corners. I had a chance to ride a real 440 Sno Pro last weekend, wow! what a shitty trail sled. I could run through whoops and jump the hell out of it, but it went arround corners like crap.

You started off fine, then you make me wonder.....

You should see what I do to myself :beerchug:

I apreciate your debate though, I am new to sled suspension and I still have a lot to learn. I am not one to discount a good idea. :div20:
 

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Originally posted by ZLSS@Jan 29 2006, 10:54 PM
To add a little bite to the front end you need to LOWER the pressure in the Floats. Making the front end softer shifts the weight forward.

Are you using the stock carbide setup? If so- get a set of carbides with at least 6 inchs. More would be better with the studs you have. Don't remove studs- add carbide.

Putting the coupling blocks on stiff is a good idea. Keep the front skid shock set at soft and make sure the torsion springs are set to the softest position.

The sled will rail when set up properly :div20:
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You are correct about lowering the pressure to get the sled to turn. But this only works if you pull the straps up at the same time. If you lower just the ski shocks the weight will get added to the front of the skid (well at least some of it) instead of being transfered to the ski's. Screwing arround with sleds is weired because they actualy have three points of contact to deal with. The ski's, the center shock, and the rear of the skid. When you are messing arround with bikes and cars you only have a front and rear to deal with. On a bike if you want it to steer faster you lower the front end or raise the rear. On a sled the center shck plays a role in all weight distribution situations.

I just can't get excited abouit a ton of studs though. I have ridden a few F series sleds now with over 105 (or whatever I have) and they rail like mad, I agree. But the downside is that you can't "back" the sled into corners or use the rear to steer when accelerating off of the apex. I find I can get in and out of a corner a lot faster when I can slide the back end in, and then slide it out. I am only talking about maybe 10-15 deg but that little bit helps out a lot.....not to mention it's fun.

I will be working on a setup for my buddies F7 who has a millin studs or whatever this week. Right now it heads for the trees if you try getting on the gas any time but when it's pointed down the trail. I'm going to try and get a lot of ski pressure on it, run the coupler blocks as tight as they will go and put a little more preload in the torsion springs than I would normaly run to keep the ski's loaded while on the gas. If it works out it will be a slot car.
 

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PUlling the limiters will only go so far. They add a lot of ski pressure when your off the throttle, and dart like hell, but when your on the throttle, they will still push no matter what type of ski you have....
Moving the rear skid to the top hole (like my '03) and pulling the limiters takes out a lot of suspension, especially when you need it for the whoops...noticealbly more. Your better off keeping it at the lower hole and leaving the straps out...no such thing as perfectly flat trails ALL the time. I have a lighter spring in the front that needs a sno pro rear at the highest preload. I can run w/o blocks and still hold the front down fairly good...I've noticed the rider position to be almost too close and too sensitive where you have to be over the handlebars to hold it down...If I dragrace w/ normal seating, the skis barely lift, as I'm running and slide back, the skis lift 6" higher....
Here what my next attempt.....I race ATV's. If the atv wheelies too much by itself, we lengthen the swingarm...If it spins too much, you shorten it....same thing w/ streetbikes (although the factories do a hell of a job w/ them).....So I'm thinking about sliding the front arm back 2". This will stop the transfer under normal seating, but will still transfer nicely when sitting back further...so you can steer hard in the corners, then lean back and lift the skis for whoops and acceleration.....Then we won't need couplers and the suspension would work a lot better w/ no coupling through whoops and shutter bumps...

This would be a simple mod for everyone w/o changing suspension and having to buy different springs....Drill a couple of holes and whalla!!! Trail sled! :div20:
 

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Originally posted by Red Devil@Jan 30 2006, 09:59 PM
PUlling the limiters will only go so far. They add a lot of ski pressure when your off the throttle, and dart like hell, but when your on the throttle, they will still push no matter what type of ski you have....
Moving the rear skid to the top hole (like my '03) and pulling the limiters takes out a lot of suspension, especially when you need it for the whoops...noticealbly more.  Your better off keeping it at the lower hole and leaving the straps out...no such thing as perfectly flat trails ALL the time.  I have a lighter spring in the front that needs a sno pro rear at the highest preload. I can run w/o blocks and still hold the front down fairly good...I've noticed the rider position to be almost too close and too sensitive where you have to be over the handlebars to hold it down...If I dragrace w/ normal seating, the skis barely lift, as I'm running and slide back, the skis lift 6" higher....
Here what my next attempt.....I race ATV's.  If the atv wheelies too much by itself, we lengthen the swingarm...If it spins too much, you shorten it....same thing w/ streetbikes (although the factories do a hell of a job w/ them).....So I'm thinking about sliding the front arm back 2". This will stop the transfer under normal seating, but will still transfer nicely when sitting back further...so you can steer hard in the corners, then lean back and lift the skis for whoops and acceleration.....Then we won't need couplers and the suspension would work a lot better w/ no coupling through whoops and shutter bumps...

This would be a simple mod for everyone w/o changing suspension and having to buy different springs....Drill a couple of holes and whalla!!! Trail sled! :div20:
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Very well thought out. It's interesting to seeing a different aproach to the same problem. I look at everything from a Roadrace perspective and you come from an ATV background. So here we are both trying to solve the same thing from different angles. If we both try different things we will definitly get to a solution faster.

The rear end of sleds are so screwy it's insane. It makes setting the rear end of a roadrace bike seem easy. On the roadrace stuff there is only one thing happening at a time. I can get a roadrace bike set up very quickly for just about any rider. Then you tune for there style. I am begining to wonder if a sledders riding style factors into the setup a lot more. The way you described cornering above is totaly different than the way I aproach it. I doubt either way is any better than the other, just different. For example, my buddy is superfast in the trails and stands up almost all the time. Meanwhile I can hang out right behind him and be sitting the whole time. I imagine my setup would seem strange to him and his would be strange to me.

I wish I understood what was going on at the back of the sled a lot more. It would be nice to have some good slow motion video of one going over bumps, entering a corner, exiting a corner, etc. I'm sure a lot of us would be surprised to see what is going on vs what we think is going on while riding it.

We run potentiometers on the racebikes sometimes and can download fork and shock travel, acceleration rates of the forks and shock, etc. It's amazing what you see on the data vs what is actualy going on in real life. I would like to set one of the systems up on my sled but I don't know how well it would hold up to all the pounding, ice, snow, rocks....trees! I wonder if anyone is doing this. I don't even think my software could be set up to deal with three points of data (ski's, front shock, rear shock) and be able to build graphs like it can with two points. I'm going to havfe to look into that. The system is pretty cool. When we have the wheel speed sensors hooked up you can run the bike arround the track and come back and it will actualy draw a track map for you, or at least where you are riding on the track, LOL.

If you come up with anything please post it, I am not unwilling to try anything. :div20:
 

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Street bikes are definately easier, especially where you don't go through any large bumps, so you dial in the suspension for acceleration and decel, along w/ ride height for cornering...
Atv's are also easier w/ just the front and rear to worry about.

Biggest problem w/ sleds is the weight transfer of the middle shock...I've made big changes in springs and only seen minor changes in transfer...Kinda like putting a short swingarm on a streetbike and trying to stop it from wheeling using the springs. It won't happen. I know, I dragraced my GSXR750 for 2 years at the 1/4 mile. The 6" longer swingarm was the answer.....Pulled another .5 second faster since I could pull out of the hole w/ less wheeling.
This past weekend, I was looking at a ZR900 slammed to the ground w/ only a few inches left of suspension in the rear...I literally jumped as hard as I could to even get it to move, but when he wacks the throttle, it still wheelies.
I will be moving the front arm back this week, maybe even today. It should work.
 
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