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Discussion Starter #1
I am requesting all the Guru knowledge to help me with this issue.

As F5SNOPRO posted in his Real Deal Thread, we rode all day yesterday and a lot of that day was at Back Lake.

His F5 scared the Sh*t out of some people for the exact reason I got my ass handed to me 95% of the time yesterday...Hole Shots and Traction.

My Info:

102 1.075 Woodys SS Studs with aluminum backers in a 2, 2 out, 2 more out pattern. See Pic. I have everything dead stock...Coupling blocks are set at stock setting and God only knows where my Dealer has my suspension set. (Forgive my ignorance, but I never had this problem with my ZR 800...I just rode it and didn't need to know all this stuff). About 8 runs into my blood Bath Dana and I with the help of this other kid on an F7 that was ripping right along, took out two Clutch Shims...I switched from Ethanol to Regular...nothing else was touched.


My Nightmare:

Yesterday on Back lake with roughly 6 inches of snow on top of the ice...some spots had less snow...I raced back and forth about 10 times for a total of 20 runs or so...I raced everything on the planet...RX1s, SRXs, Thundercat 900s, 1000's,F7s, ZR 900s, ZR 800s, ZR 800 CCss, MXZ 800s, Rev 800s, MACH Zs, XC 800s, XCR 800s, XC 700s etc...everything there I raced.

Sadly, everything there kicked the Sh*t out of me. All because everytime I hammerd the throttle I sat there and burried a whole in the ice...I tried standing on the back of the sled...sitting on the trunk...removing the two clutch shims...sitting forward...jumping up and down to get the studs to seat themselves...nothing worked...The ZR 900s were killing everything...The REV 800 and RX 1 were close behind...and I would stay even with/catch up to a litttle on all the other sleds, but nothing impressive...believe me, my ego was beat to hell yesterday. The other sleds were litterally launching forward like they were on sling shots and I would just sit and spin :angry :angry: :angry:

Can some one please help???

BIG NOTE:

A lot of these sleds (I asked and interviewed as many people as I could) were not stock...above, when I mentioned the sleds that were kicking my ass, I was mentioning what was stock...at least to the best of my knowledge...the Rev supposedly had a different track with razor picks on it or something like that....but there were MACH Zs and Thunder Cats there that were being raced by actual ICE DRAGS people...those things were pulling some serious wheelies and ripping down the ice well above anyone. I don't think there were more than three stock SkiDoos there....and man, the other 97 non stockers were killing me....

Focusing in on what was my worst enemy is traction/launch. This is where I am pleading for help. I would love to tell you guys the F7 rocked, but it got it's ass beat bad. The other Team Green F7 that F5SNOPRO and I were talking to was doing the best for F7s and even he was not anywhere near the ZR 900s and that Rev 800.

Also, I lost 6 studs to bending...meaning, I replaced them after seeing they were bent beyond functioning. Is this normal for stainless steel studs so early in the season?

Thanks to any and all who can help. Just point me in the right suspension setup/track direction.
 

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Do u have the f7??if u do the proplem is u do not have enough
stud's and they are not long enough...that is why u are bending
and losing stud's...1 per hp...my old zr 500 had 96 and that
was barley enough..so 102 for 140 hp is not nearly enough!!!!
On my f7 i have 153..1.175 fast trac..and she hook's hard!!
block set on 3..spring on heaviest..middle spring backed off
At a dead stop she will stand on the rear bumper..then
carry the ski's about 1-2 inches of the ground.Get more
stud's then she will hook up..might need 170 to the 1.075
to hook up.
 

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My buddies sled did the same thing he only has 102 studs in his. I have 170 in mine I would kill him out of the hole. your main problem is you need more studs this will help alot and if you sit right on the tank you will also get a better hole shot. my buddy ended up puting 170 in his and now it all depends on who hits the trottle first. If I want to I can pull a wheelie on glare ice. I would start with that studboy has the 170 pattern. and with that many in there you will not bfe bending them either.
 

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I have the same problem. I have 170 1.075 studs in my standard track and i am getting killed off the line by sleds with less studs and ones with more studs. The lake was glare ice with no snow on it so im hopeing it is much better with snow. I was not happy at all with the hole shot that i am getting. I thought it would be much better. I have yet to play with the suspension at all so hopefully it gets much better. I try to remember that this is a new sled and im racing older sleds that are dialed in already. Im sure it will get better when i get it set-up right. Now if we could get some snow to test on that would help too!!!
 

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Discussion Starter #5
Yes, I have a standard F7 with the 1" track.

I just adjusted my coupler blocks so that the number 1 is facing straight up and down and the the number 2 is facing towards the front of the sled and the number 3 is rear facing...Is this the right way to set them to 1 for the best launch?

If Fast F7 Firecat already has 170 1.075s than that is not the answer. I was not on ice...I was on 4-6" of snow on top of the ice.

green-patriot Posted on Dec 29 2002, 08:49 PM
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My buddies sled did the same thing he only has 102 studs in his. I have 170 in mine I would kill him out of the hole. your main problem is you need more studs this will help alot and if you sit right on the tank you will also get a better hole shot. my buddy ended up puting 170 in his and now it all depends on who hits the trottle first. If I want to I can pull a wheelie on glare ice. I would start with that studboy has the 170 pattern. and with that many in there you will not bfe bending them either.

Now, I am lost here...Here we have one sled with no traction and 170 picks and another that can do wheelies...Green Patriot, How long are your studs? Is your buddy's and your sled's suspension tweeked or standard?

Does this mean it's all in the suspension? Christ, I hope so!
 

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1) You need to set up your entire suspension properly. There is a great article in this months SUpertrax mag. Pick it up and read it... it is an article about "Proper Ride height" but really tells you how to set up the entire suspension. One aspect is the proper amount of coupling.

2) Your launch problems are due to: a) too early coupling moment (so adjust for less coupling). B) not enough studs - minimum 1 per hp for hook up and less bending/breaking. c) throttle control - with a 700 this powerful, you don't necessarily want to punch it to the bars right out of the hole... once you spin at all, you are done..so quickly depress the throttle, but not in one instant squeeze...this is a feel thing...you need to be able to feel the track spin to prevent it.

3) Guys who are running less than 1 stud per HP are going to replace alot of studs...this is a snowmob. rule older than I am.

Good luck! She's got it in her...just have to learn how to get the power to the ground.

kj
 

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Discussion Starter #7
I will get the Supertrax...Thanks. I would have gotten 144 studs in a heartbeat, but with the narrow track and everyone saying this and that, my dealer put in 119...course they put in 119 with every third row having a middle stud which we all know is a no, no. So now I have the 102. I also have 17 holes down the middle of my track. My big question now is to add another 42 studs would mean I have to rearrange the pattern wouldn't it? Or can I add to the pattern I have and not worry about the 17 holes to boot?
 
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I have 102 picks in the middle of my F7 track and it spanks my buddys ZR CC EFI 800 7 or 8 sleds out of the hole and I only weigh145 pounds,It also spanks my other friends ZR 800 with D&D twin pipes with all the goodies and it ran a 10.4 @122 on the asphalt and it got beat by 6 or 7 sleds out of the h :unsure: ole in barnstead NH on the lake this weekend.
 

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I have my coupling blocks on 2 my spring blocks on 2 the front shock turned up 3 full turns from stock and the front ski springs with 2" of treads showing. Ihave to sit on the tank to get a good hole shot. we left my buddies sled alone after he put in 170 studs I would still kill him on the hole shot then he set it up the same way as me and it's pretty darn close. But I am here to tell you. you can't just punch it off the line or you will lose because all you do is spin. This is the way I do it count to 3 when your racing1..2..3.. It seems like I always get beat out of the hole but when i count its very miniumal and at 50' I am starting to pull away I have only been beat by 1 sled and that is a srx viper that was clutched piped and geared with 240 studs but he only beat me by 1/2 sled lenght in 660' we raced 9 times he beat me 5 out of the nine He did red light once but I won the last 3 doing my counting just try easing into it it helps alot. You can try this suspention setup if you like but I Mine is set up for glare ice because we don't have any snow. once it snows I probly will have to change it so I can jump it who knows it might work the way it is. I only have 180 miles on mine and most of it is on Ice so I have not figured out all the suspention set ups yet so good luck to ya
 

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bosssho wrote----->As F5SNOPRO posted in his Real Deal Thread, we rode all day yesterday and a lot of that day was at Back Lake.

His F5 scared the Sh*t out of some people for the exact reason I got my ass handed to me 95% of the time yesterday...Hole Shots and Traction.

hehehehehe :p

john when i was watching you launch , there was only a maximum of an inch of powder in the area you were starting in, thats why i lined up first back were there was a good snow pack and then holshotted everyone that time,even with no studs . hehehhe
you were pretty much launching on glare ice man !
 

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You guys might be answering your own questions! Looks to me like your using very short carbide tipped studs,not the best for ice racing,they make ice pics for a reason.The carbide tip doesn't get enough penetration because the caride bottoms out on the flattened part of the actual stud where the carbide tip is inserted,giving you maybe a 16th to an 8th inch penetration.I think a combination of too few trail studs and so much power,you cant get the hook up your after.How was the launch on the trail?I bet alot better than on the lake!
 

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It takes at LEAST 144 or more to hook these
croch rocket's up!!!and at least 1.175 inch
stud.The 1.075 are not long enough barley
go over the lug.If u want to hook up go with
144 plus and at least 1.175 in stud and dont
race on a glare of ice.
 

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john,
also if you remember there was a guy shoveling the snow down to the ise so the mental sleds could get traction with their speed tracks and 1 million chizel picks.
 

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john,
dont feel bad about losing up there, ive been doing some digging and found out some info.
remember the rx-1 that went by you, he had the "silly button" in it.
some of the doo's were 1050's or bigger, remember the 1200 mxz?
lots of nitrous ,turbo'ed, race gased motored sleds up there .
the sleds that run back lake are hardcore to the bone . so smile after you get your traction figured out ! :p
lots of cats with hooper motors as well .
 

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I realize that my studs are not for ice but all the people that i was raceing had trail stud too so it should be fairly even. I had to easy into the gas just to try to keep up of the line. Very tempted to put ice pick in. Then it would be no contest!!!! Its just is a pain in the ass to switch stud if it ever does snow in wisconsin.
 

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Discussion Starter #18
Is anyone having any problems running the 1.175" studs? I am wondering why all the companies selling the studs are recommending 1.075 when it seems like (now that I have had to think it all to death) that the .075 would be scraped off when crossing the first few streets you go over...or when you are racing on ice, etc, etc...I am trying to figure out why the 1.175 studs are not the factory specs if you know what I mean.

Can anyone say yes or no to me adding studs to the pattern I have already got going on here? I posted the pics at the beginning of the thread. I don't want to wreck the track.

Thanks for all the help thus far.
 

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I have no proplem's with mine so far..180 miles on now
going to N.B next sunday should be able to put on
another 500-700 miles over a couple of day's
Dont know why they recommend 1.075 they barley
go over the lug...1.175 will not hit the tunnell
if they are running 1.4what ever in the snow pro
1.175 should have no proplem at all..lot's of
clearence at the heat exchanger's etc...stay away from
the center.
 

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From ur patteren it look's like u can add one or 2.
where ur 2 stud's are the closet or u can put some
in ur closed window.If it was me i would not put
any betwen the stud and the hole that the other
stud's u took out...put some between the stud
and the window's in the track..just measure a 1/2
inch in from the window and drill if u can get another
stud in with the patteren u already have in.
If u go between the stud and the hole ur dumb
dealer drilled and the stud comes u could end up with
a big hole...maybe that is good..u said ur dealer
would replace it if it rip's!!lol
 
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