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1) Cutting corners is trespassing.....you are no longer on a marked trail
2) Using a field instead of a ditch without landowner permission - Trespassing. It doesn't matter if you are causing ANY damage or not
3) Land owners tell the clubs how and where to place the trails on their property. I ran into this situation last year where I had to put in a 90 degree corner because he did not want us using the most direct route across his winter wheat which was a straight line.

Does it really matter what damage if any is done to a field/crop that you are illegally riding on? And should it matter to you or any of us how that farmer feels about their property and how they want the trails marked when you are legally riding? This whole conversation is mute because a landowner can tell us exactly how to do something or then tell us exactly where to go with not giving us future permissions.
 

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1) Cutting corners is trespassing.....you are no longer on a marked trail
2) Using a field instead of a ditch without landowner permission - Trespassing. It doesn't matter if you are causing ANY damage or not
3) Land owners tell the clubs how and where to place the trails on their property. I ran into this situation last year where I had to put in a 90 degree corner because he did not want us using the most direct route across his winter wheat which was a straight line.

Does it really matter what damage if any is done to a field/crop that you are illegally riding on? And should it matter to you or any of us how that farmer feels about their property and how they want the trails marked when you are legally riding? This whole conversation is mute because a landowner can tell us exactly how to do something or then tell us exactly where to go with not giving us future permissions.
For some completely unknown reason the OP cannot understand the simple rules you have outlined. The only conclusion to be drawn is that he struggles with logic and is mentally challenged when it comes to simple concepts.
 

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I don't know how long a dead horse can be beaten, but we're clearly trying to see with this thread LOL

To @cash68 ... I get what you're saying and if you're successful in getting some of the land owners in your area to consider sweeping turns vs. 90 degree corners that's awesome. Even the guys chastising you in this thread would be willing to buy you a beer I'd hope! That said, if you can't convince a land owner to change the trail layout, I hope you understand what everyone is saying here & that you need to stay between the stakes, plain and simple.
 

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Discussion Starter #85
My club's trails are fine. It's when I get an hours away, and the trails are just... they just don't care. Chisel plowed fields, rock hard that beat you to death, super poor signage, 90 degree turns, sometimes they don't put enough blazers up. When I was riding to work last year, there was a snow storm the night before and partially in the morning. Was booking along trying to make good time on my commute, and then... where is the trail? Since I was early there were no tracks to follow. The trail was just gone. I squinted in to the distance, and I see the trail on the other side of road, along an adjacent field. Someone forgot to hang a sign for a corner, and after 5-6" of fresh snow, ... yeah. Looked like it just went straight.

Again. Trails w my club are well marked and we radius the corners, but the thing I keep driving towards you guys is that there are no standards statewide. I have no idea what club I would even talk to in some of these areas.
 

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My club's trails are fine. It's when I get an hours away, and the trails are just... they just don't care. Chisel plowed fields, rock hard that beat you to death, super poor signage, 90 degree turns, sometimes they don't put enough blazers up. When I was riding to work last year, there was a snow storm the night before and partially in the morning. Was booking along trying to make good time on my commute, and then... where is the trail? Since I was early there were no tracks to follow. The trail was just gone. I squinted in to the distance, and I see the trail on the other side of road, along an adjacent field. Someone forgot to hang a sign for a corner, and after 5-6" of fresh snow, ... yeah. Looked like it just went straight.

Again. Trails w my club are well marked and we radius the corners, but the thing I keep driving towards you guys is that there are no standards statewide. I have no idea what club I would even talk to in some of these areas.
Ask any business in any area that caters to snowmobilers what club(s) take care of THOSE trails, they will absolutely know and are probably some of the trail workers themselves.
 

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Poor signage: I usually go out for a quick spin on all of our trails the day there is just enough snow to check signage - things get missed or forgotten when you have to take them down, and put them back up every season. Just a thing we do.
 

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hate to say this, as maybe its just me?
But I have never found it that hard to figure out what club manages WHAT trails
look at map, find the area the trails are in and odd's are there is a CLUB that works that area,
and I don't know of any club today that doesn't email, web sites, face book pages and so on

if anyone cannot find out who manages trails in an area, its NOT due to any reason but LACK< of effort that person has placed trying to find out who maintains the trails!


in today modern age , its NOT that hard to find info out if one puts in a LITTLE effort!

but there in lies the problem, , many rather complain or take matters into there own hands(going OFF marked trails) rather than TRY and be part of the solution, they rather be the problem! and cry about it, when others correct them!

and yes, anyone that works to solve problem and help keep this sport alive I am ALL for even YOU (OP of tread)
IF you ever decide to do this,
rather than again, being the bad apple making your OWN calls on someone else's lands!
 

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Curious as to what part of the state you are referring to as the trails that aren't marked well. As an active member in my club, if it is our trails, i'll be sure to look into it with our club. Is it North or South of hwy 29? East or West of Hwy 39?
My club's trails are fine. It's when I get an hours away, and the trails are just... they just don't care. Chisel plowed fields, rock hard that beat you to death, super poor signage, 90 degree turns, sometimes they don't put enough blazers up. When I was riding to work last year, there was a snow storm the night before and partially in the morning. Was booking along trying to make good time on my commute, and then... where is the trail? Since I was early there were no tracks to follow. The trail was just gone. I squinted in to the distance, and I see the trail on the other side of road, along an adjacent field. Someone forgot to hang a sign for a corner, and after 5-6" of fresh snow, ... yeah. Looked like it just went straight.

Again. Trails w my club are well marked and we radius the corners, but the thing I keep driving towards you guys is that there are no standards statewide. I have no idea what club I would even talk to in some of these areas.
 

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He rode to work from Slinger to Fond du lac one day and didn't find the trails to his liking. My guess is up 151 to Theresa, past lomira, to Brownsville and then to oakfield and to Mercury marine on the wild goose trail. There is another route so just a guess on this route. Cant believe he made it as a while back he couldn't even find a map of his local area. Either way he rode through trails which the club I am a part of maintains and likely on trails I mark. There are other clubs along this route so it likely could have been another club. I have one land owner who says keep the trails tight to the edge vs going straight across his field. Last year when we stopped to ask for permission to go over his land he started the conversation with his insurance agent told him he shouldn't let us on his property. 45 minutes later we talked him out of this, gave him a gift card, thanked him again for his permission and marked the trail a couple of weeks later. I am confident if you tried to educate this landowner on how you wanted to use his land we wouldn't have this portion of the trail and likely no other way to route the trail around him. Many people used this portion of the trail last year and stayed within the markers except for one person who blew directly across the field. Luckily it was only one person and towards the end of the season as if it would have been early on I could see others thinking this was an appropriate short cut and we would need to deal with a pissed off land owner and having to put up snow fence on every corner, etc. Was it you who went directly across this field cutting the corners?

Cash, you have no idea what each individual has to go through to get a trail put in and my guess have never talked to a land owner especially one who doesn't really care/want you on his property. My suggestion to you and the suggestion from just about everyone else here is to never deviate from the trail and most important if you don't like the terrain, the corners, the marking, etc then find another place to ride vs coming on here to complain about it and trying to educate everyone else on what they are all doing wrong. Your complaining is really off putting to me and I am one who puts in the trails you ride on and I have a feeling I am not the only one who feels this way.
Xltboy

“Never argue with a fool, onlookers may not be able to tell the difference.”
Mark Twain
 

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Discussion Starter #91
He rode to work from Slinger to Fond du lac one day and didn't find the trails to his liking. My guess is up 151 to Theresa, past lomira, to Brownsville and then to oakfield and to Mercury marine on the wild goose trail. There is another route so just a guess on this route. Cant believe he made it as a while back he couldn't even find a map of his local area.
I could find maps. The problem is none of them were accurate. I've posted about it and even all of you admitted the maps don't match the trail system at all. I also could not find a clear description of which club owns which trails. It's not clear on any of their websites.


I have one land owner who says keep the trails tight to the edge vs going straight across his field.
Nobody is suggesting to go straight across the field. Reread this entire thread. At absolutely no point will you find me suggesting we go straight across fields. The only thing I have said is to RADIUS THE CORNERS.


Last year when we stopped to ask for permission to go over his land he started the conversation with his insurance agent told him he shouldn't let us on his property. 45 minutes later we talked him out of this, gave him a gift card, thanked him again for his permission and marked the trail a couple of weeks later. I am confident if you tried to educate this landowner on how you wanted to use his land we wouldn't have this portion of the trail and likely no other way to route the trail around him.
Sounds like a dumbass, imho. Trying to educate him on something = he would be disagreeable and lose trail access? That would suck. But avoiding feedback and education from people who's job it is to setup trails?

Many people used this portion of the trail last year and stayed within the markers except for one person who blew directly across the field. Luckily it was only one person and towards the end of the season as if it would have been early on I could see others thinking this was an appropriate short cut and we would need to deal with a pissed off land owner and having to put up snow fence on every corner, etc. Was it you who went directly across this field cutting the corners?
Nope. Only time I went 'off trail' was in the situation I described a few posts up, which was on accident, and due to someone not marking a corner with fresh snowfall so I couldn't see where the trail went. I always stick to trails, I do not have a mountain sled or a can.

Cash, you have no idea what each individual has to go through to get a trail put in and my guess have never talked to a land owner especially one who doesn't really care/want you on his property. My suggestion to you and the suggestion from just about everyone else here is to never deviate from the trail and most important if you don't like the terrain, the corners, the marking, etc then find another place to ride vs coming on here to complain about it and trying to educate everyone else on what they are all doing wrong. Your complaining is really off putting to me and I am one who puts in the trails you ride on and I have a feeling I am not the only one who feels this way.
I do have an idea of what that is like. A few years ago a land owner came out and yelled at us for putting in the trail like we always do because some jackass drove across his lawn the previous season.

This is a forum for sharing ideas and information. I am SUGGESTING that clubs radius the corners for quite a few reasons:

- Prevents the corner from being blown out. If people can maintain speed in a corner they don't do burnouts halfway through the corner and throw all the snow off from it

- This protects the land owner's land/field/whatever. Not flooring it mid corner and throwing all the snow off does LESS damage as the snow stays on the trail

- It's more fun.

My clubs trails have pretty radiused corners. When we are putting in the trails we discuss hazards and how someone would ride the trail. I am suggesting that when putting in the trails, people try to radius corners. Central WI will never be like up north, but it can be a lot better. I'm doing what I can by joining a local club and helping putting in trails and giving feedback.

What club are you in?
 

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"Sounds like a dumbass, imho " This comment shows the real root of the issue with you which is a disrespect for the landowners which are needed to support this sport as you act like it is your rite to utilize their property however you see fit.

I am a member of Leroy-Knowles country riders, now what club are you in?
Xltboy
 

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Does anyone think part of the problem lies with the marketing of the longer tracked sleds? “This sled is designed for the 40% on trail, 60% off trail rider”. It seems to me that the manufacturers are encouraging riders to stray from the trails. Where I ride in Upstate NY, there is no off trail riding and when I see a long track sled on the trail I cringe that that rider is going to get trails closed.
 

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Does anyone think part of the problem lies with the marketing of the longer tracked sleds? “This sled is designed for the 40% on trail, 60% off trail rider”. It seems to me that the manufacturers are encouraging riders to stray from the trails. Where I ride in Upstate NY, there is no off trail riding and when I see a long track sled on the trail I cringe that that rider is going to get trails closed.
I know that was a discussion topic from our region rep for MnUSA at a club meeting we had last season ... that manufacturers are contributing to the problem. My response to that is, bluntly ... bullshit. I owned a 144" Assault and guess what? I didn't find myself going off trail anywhere I wasn't supposed to. It's individual responsibility and not a blame game. I see more guys using the long tracks to screw around on the lakes, off the stick trails, than I do going off trail illegally. But then again, there are places for people to go off trail legally where I ride, too - so that makes a huge difference.
 

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This is a forum for sharing ideas and information. I am SUGGESTING that clubs radius the corners for quite a few reasons:

- Prevents the corner from being blown out. If people can maintain speed in a corner they don't do burnouts halfway through the corner and throw all the snow off from it

- This protects the land owner's land/field/whatever. Not flooring it mid corner and throwing all the snow off does LESS damage as the snow stays on the trail

- It's more fun.

My clubs trails have pretty radiused corners. When we are putting in the trails we discuss hazards and how someone would ride the trail. I am suggesting that when putting in the trails, people try to radius corners. Central WI will never be like up north, but it can be a lot better. I'm doing what I can by joining a local club and helping putting in trails and giving feedback.

What club are you in?
I am all for making suggestions and doing what one can to make them come about if there really better options

but the problem HERE, is the fact you came on a forum and stated that you go off trail in corners YOU FEEL ARE MARKED OR DESIGNED WRONG! without permission to do so!
and that is a BIG difference, than voicing an opinion on a forum, your stating you DO THIS, and trying to make others take your side on something that is again, 100% WRONG for you to be doing!
as that is an action of you disobeying the rules of the trail (stay on marked trails) and NOT following what the land owner wishes!

next ( QUOTE)Nope. Only time I went 'off trail' was in the situation I described a few posts up, which was on accident, and due to someone not marking a corner with fresh snowfall so I couldn't see where the trail went. I always stick to trails, I do not have a mountain sled or a can
QUOTE
again the above
YOU have stated on this tread that YOU go off trail in corners YOU feel are BLOWN OUT< and thus go out side of marked trails, which again is 100% WRONG for you to do!
and one of the main reasons trails lose access to everyone else due to your ignorance here on this matter!

and just a little FYI, NO club owns the trails on PRIVATE LANDS, and this is the major reason why its so important to STAY ON TRAIL
as the trails in most places(minus any state /federal land they run thru)
is all granted by PRIVATE LAND OWNERS that OWN the land, SET THEIR OWN RULES, on where how and WHY things are the way they are!

NO club can just DO as they pleased on private lands NOR can they on even state or federal lands, there are always rules that have to followed, by ALL
the clubs and the riders that use the trails
failure to follow these rules, is what again ends up in closing of trails ON certain private lands!

SO< maybe again, YOU need to re think what your typing and saying and all the more so DOING
as your actions again are what cause trails to get closed and landowners to STOP allowing trails ON THERE LANDS!

IF you feel so strongly about making some SET RULES< on how turns should be made on trails,
I suggest you start with working with YOUR CLUB and then asking them to branch out with other clubs, start a petition or the likes,
then go MAKE AN EFFORT to make it so!
don't just do wrong cause YOU FEEL YOU KNOW BETTER!
or too lazy to do more!

don't be part of the problem, be part of the solution!
stay ON TRAIL! be it a corner or a field or??(unless its LEGAL to go off trail)
so, STAY ON TRAIN, for the sport if nothing else, have some respect for others!
< and please stop trying to defend your wrong actions, there is NO winning with this period!
wrong is wrong period here! and you are 100% wrong when you go off marked trails in corners! NO IF AND's or But's!

as that is NOT helping the problem only making things worse!
as I said above, if you really want to make things better, put more effort into things, all improvements have to start some where, just do them in the right way! not just doing as YOU please!
 

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Does anyone think part of the problem lies with the marketing of the longer tracked sleds? “This sled is designed for the 40% on trail, 60% off trail rider”. It seems to me that the manufacturers are encouraging riders to stray from the trails. Where I ride in Upstate NY, there is no off trail riding and when I see a long track sled on the trail I cringe that that rider is going to get trails closed.
why does everyone want to blame something or someone else for THERE ACTIONS??
sled OEM's making longer track sleds, MAKE you go off trail, like forks make you fat!
it just doesn't work that way in the real world
facts are simple, were ALL responsible for OUR ACTIONS and it shouldn;t be any other way
we all I gather own street legal vehicles that can go WAY past any states speed limit<
should we all sue the OEM's for making vehicles that go faster??
NOPE< can you see the poor logic of this

this is all about just being a responsible person, and standing behind your a actions without trying to BLAME others!
NOT sure why so many folks cannot just be responsible for what THEY DO anymore!
it AIN"T that hard! IMO
 

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But I do stay on trails.
well NO YOU DON"T by your own words in YOUR post here!

SO< again MAYBE you need to go back and re read things you posted, and again see how you have been showing your disrespectful to land owners from calling them NAMES and NOT caring what THEY want on THERE LAND<and mostly saying ? in a round about way, YOU know more than they do!
and again stating you CUT corners, which IS riding OFF marked trails




Post #3 of this tread disrespectful calling farmers old and like to bitch? and complain/, showing us all your true colors right at the start here

as HOW is that NOT being disrespectful???

quote) Discussion Starter • #3 3 mo ago


Basically, I feel like some farmers are just old people who like to bitch and complain.

I am not advocating driving off trail, I am not advocating being disrespectful to land owners, I am advocating for common sense.

this only reinforces my opinion about cutting corners on the trail network. When the corners get washed out, and down to the dirt, I feel like it is LESS DAMAGING/MORE RESPECTFUL to cut the corner and stay on actual snow. By continuing to just blast around the same 90 degree corner and riding down into the dirt, you are actually damaging the field. This is what the farmer sees in the spring, and we can LESSEN the damage to the fields by cutting the corners when they are down to the dirt.QUOTE)

BUT your common sense is advocating and stating YOU CUT CORNERS< which is NOT staying in marked trails!
why do you not get this??
its both wrong to advocate cutting corners making decisions that are NOT your right to make, and disrespecting land owners that ALLOW US< to USE there lands as THEY WANT! NOT HOW you want!

and then you stated this in post # 16
again stating you Cut corners NO regard to land owners wishes or trail rules about staying ON MARKED TRAILS!
and you ARE advocating cutting corners 100% here AGAIN!





Discussion Starter • #16 3 mo ago

quote)
I'm using this to state why I think 'cutting corners' is okay, when the corner is blown out into the dirt. Riding on fresh snow causes LESS DAMAGE than blowing out the corner and continuing to dig down into the dirt.

I think common sense is missing form a lot of people, and a lot of people here try to say STAY ON TRAILS AT ALL TIMES 100%!!!!! and I do. Unless the corner is blown out. Then I cut. I feel like this is better to the land owner and my sled, but obviously this is discretionary and needs good judgement, and would be hard to police. QUOTE)

AND AGAIN< you stated you cut corners and YOU FEEL< its OK to do so,
regardless of trail rules to stay on MARKED TRAILS< and NO regards to the land owners wishes or consent to CUT any corner,
YOU??
YOU JUST DO IT, ALL ON YOUR OWN! and then TRY and get others ti follow suit on a open forum!

just imagine how many trails would get closed if EVERYONE did what THEY THINK IS OK!

if you again want to HELP make better trails, , get off your keyboard ass and go and work with the land owners, clubs, the state, and so on, to try and set some standards on HOW corners should be made on trails,
but DON"T just do as YOU think things should be, that is setting a BAD example and going to negatively effect the sport I gather YOU enjoy as well as others!

again, DON"T be that bad apple that screws things on everyone else, due to your ignorance!

its quite obvious that you know going off trail is wrong, YET you do it! and stated you do as examples in the two above cut and pastes from your posts!
 
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