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I am in a club and I do help. I'm just sharing my small experience and opinion. That's what discussion forums are for. Feel free to share your experiments and opinions. :)

This also goes back to my complaints about the way some clubs lay out their trails. If they put a decent radius in the corners, instead of a sharp 90 fucking degree corner in the middle of a field, it would NOT get blown out. But because whoever put in the trail decided that was how it is going to be, people have corner super hard/go so slow, and then once they're past the apex, they floor it to accelerate out of the corner, and blow all the snow out, which exasperates the issue.

If there was some sort of guidelines/standards on how to lay out trails, aka, put in a radiused corner, this would prevent corner blowout/dirt, and encourage people to stay on the trails.
if your in a club and you are a real part of things,(and don;'t just pay for a membership due) maybe you can try and talk to the folks that OWN the land and try and tell them HOW the trails should run thru there land??
see how that goers, MAYBE it would help, not a bash here, just saying
coming on a forum and saying problems, isn't the same as speaking up at club meetings and making the effort to GO talk to a land owner and try and work with them
like I said, it takes real work to get things done, there can always be a better way, but if your not making the attempts to resolve things and just taking it into your own hands to ride and BLOW Out corners at will, your NOT really helping, but hurting the sport!
facts are facts, YOU DON"T own the land, so you have ZERO right to decide where you can go on it, trails get marked for a reason
and failing to stay on the trails is what causes trails to get lost
its not rocket science!
yet so many fail to get it!!!
lots of time now between NOW and next season, start talking at meetings and push the issue to get to know land owners and offer advice/suggestions on how to save the land owner form more damage
talks like this, are HELP, and might save a farmer some work, but it has to be done with respect, and that's a huge key many miss! IMO
or they wait till winter/last minute like, i to start talks, and farmers like most folks DON"T Like being put on the spot
relationships are BUILT they take time, the more effort and time you put into something, most times the more you get out of it!
short cuts seldom make anyone happy in joint use lands!
 

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You know, I’m not at all opposed to your (@cash68) thoughts on where trails can/should go. But it’s just not our decision. I have two land owners literally back to back with no road crossing between. One has us put up fencing guiding them around corners, Stay On Trail signs every 100 yards, and still spreads manure along the side of the trail in the winter to keep people on the trail. The next guy over says “shoot straight across” and we put nothing but reassurance markers all the way.

We have to stay where we are told on the trail, or that trail might not be there next year.

Go talk to your land owners, ask them.
 

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Discussion Starter #24
My clubs trails are decent. I've given feedback on stuff in meetings and when we put in the trails we don't have hard 90s on high speed sections.

My feedback in this thread is getting at... I wish state wide, there would be some sort of standard to trail layout and marking. North of my area, the trail markings are spotty and confusing, the trails have hard 90s, etc.

Think of it this way, like rally racing. I used to be into that quite a bit. When setting up stage or course, it would take place on roads, but there were STANDARDS on how things were marked, and guidelines on where spectator areas could be located, and where they could NOT be located. These guidelines and standards result in a uniform look to all stages/rallies no matter the location. It also keeps people safe.

IN MY EXPERIENCE, my club does a pretty good job. Up north near Lakewood, they do an AMAZING job. But the center of the state? It's completely hit and miss.

And I think some people blow 'damage' way out of proportion. Again, the photos I posted were a heavily tracked section that was not official trail. Technically may even have been against the law, depending on feet from center of the road. But not one single rider in all the seasons I have been here has ever been a dickbag and torn up that guys fields. People just use it respectfully, w common sense, to avoid the culverts/drain pipes for a short section.
 

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Cash, There are guidelines on the DNR website and these guidelines are what our club uses when marking the trails. As we do our sections individually I cant guarantee that everyone in our club follows them but for the most part they do and from what I have seen other clubs also follow these guidelines. do a search on Google for "wisconsin DNR snowmobile trail marking standards" and it should be the first link.
Xltboy
 

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and also again keep in mind, a club can only make trails the LAND owner allows, many times they have NO say in things
and ANY trail is better than NO trail, to keep thinbgs connecting to other trals NO

this again is, where folks like you*cash68) if you feel this strongly about things, get off your butt(meany nicely no bash here)
and go in the off season and talk to land owners in places where you feel trails are confusing and all that!
see if you can educate the land owners and help them under stand and try and get them to allow better trails?
things like this never happen just complaining on a forum , things need to be taught and talked about to folks that can make the changes! like the LAND owners and AT club meetings, BY folks with time and passion to make things better
as nothing gets done just by saying words on a screen the land owners are NOT reading, or in any official capacity .
even when there are set standards and rules , like DCN or states have
they can some times NOT be meet on land owners request as long as safety isn;'t s concern, as most times bottom line on any trails NOT on state land, it IS the land owners say that has last words, NOT the club or state!
countless snowmobile trails are also NOT set to any race course standards
due to well, there NOT races, there are not race like conditions, or sponsorship, to HAVE to conform to!


and again your picture of that field, DOES show a difference in growth of things, you aybe don;t see it, or want to
but it is there
and as a farmer, the thing that makes or breaks them is what is called YIELDS
so when a section of field had a 10% less growth rate or YIELD or even less ,
it effects there bottom line, (INCOME< ) it still COSTS Them the same $$$ to prep a field and treat its crops, , so when they grow less due to being driven on, even a small amount, it adds up to losses for them!
this is what MOST rider s DON"T get!

all this seems like a small thing to you, but its NOT to them, when things effect your MONEY I bet you pay more attention to things, and you wouldn;t ant random strangers taking some of your money off you, without your permission,
in the real world that is called STEALING
and folks never like being robbed,!
and its worse when you let someone do something and they turn around and steal from you

think about it, how would you feel if you left a friend stay over your house and come to find when they left they stole something off you!
odds are you would feel insulated, maybe mad, and maybe NOT want them back at your house again??
ruin a friendship even maybe??
well when again a LAND owner opens there LAND up for strangers to use, out of kindness, and then they get damages, or folks riding OFF Trails into places they DON"T want riders PERIOD< be it damages or NOT
is still just insulting and reasons for them to NOT allow it in the future!

its real easy to NOT get this stuff till you see it in examples that hit home more, or your on the other side of the coin, and sadly very few folks will OWN land and FREELY open it up to the public to use!
don;t believe this, look about at HOW much land in the USA is private and posted!!
VERY VERY VERY Little of private lands are OPEN to the public!

folks should really Be THANKING farmers and land owners that ALLOW TRAILS on there lands and NOT be disrespecting them by NOT following there requests to STAY ON TRAILS!
and anyone that dislikes how a trail lays out, should get off there ass and go and try in a REAL way to make changes, educate land owners, spend TIME and TRY

rather than trying to justify NOT following a trail, or worse, RIDING where its NOT a trail at/on someone else s dime and land!

ain't NO land free to ride on folks!
its either legal state trails and land,s or its private lands, you either have LEGAL permission to RIDE/be on , or your trespassing and breaking the law doing so!
you either KNOW where your at, or SHOULD and know where your at is OPEN to be ridden on or NOT too!
 

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Discussion Starter #28
There's definitely ZERO affect on the crops on the edge of the field. I walk my dog over there and there's no way to see where the trail was.

I think people who complain are being giant pussies and I don't believe a snowmobile can hurt a field unless it's warm out and the thing has paddle tracks and digs in or something.

Still, STAY ON TRAIL, but some people need to lighten up. There's no damage. The official studies by UW WI say there is no damage as well.
 

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Several in this thread have suggested you go talk to the landowners. Have you presented your "findings" to them directly? You keep saying the same thing but you are saying it to the wrong people. In our area we are lucky to have the access we currently do and every year we continue to lose more of it due to entitled assholes that sled here and don't give two shits about staying on the trails.

You would be far better served taking up a much more productive crusade. One that attempts to preserve the access and trails that we have rather than one that continues to beat a horse after it is clearly already dead.
 

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Discussion Starter #31
Yup. Actually have a pretty steep hill in the front yard, heavily forested. I cleared a path for sleds last fall. Since I run studs, it tore up the hill pretty well late in the season. Can't tell at all now, forest looks fine.

But yeah, i walk my dog near these fields that I ride on the edge of to avoid culverts in the ditch. So does everyone else around here. Nobody is boondocking or tearing up the field, we just ride right on the edge. It has absolutely zero impact. Anyone who claims riding a snowmobile on a field hurts crops is full of shit; the only way that can happen is if people are doing burnouts, or if the club does something dumb like makes a 90 degree turn in the trail and then everyone digs in the corners and gets down into the dirt. Even then, dirt is rock hard and frozen, so it would be a challenge to dig deep enough to damage crops.
 

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You still don’t get it do you? Are you a farmer or agronomist.? I am both. Compaction can cause different results. yes you say you cant see a visual difference but are you able to see a yield difference? If it an older seeding is the stand thinner because of compaction but with the green growth unless you take stand counts you can’t see. At the end of the day if it isn’t your property you have no say in it and if I mean if a farmer who owns it says it a problem then in his eyes it is and since he owns it andpays taxes on it his opinion is all that matters
 

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Discussion Starter #33
Compaction is IMPOSSIBLE with frozen ground, as snowmobiles spread out their weight so much that the lb / sq inch is less than even walking. This was covered in the UW study.

At the end of the day anyone who claims a snowmobile affects crop yields is full of shit.
 

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It's like arguing politics ... nobody is going to convince someone else "their answer" is better. I still stand by what I've said in the past though ... I don't disagree with your logic (cash68) but I sure would like to see you have the discussion with a land owner. The better fix is for your club to go out early and roll that chisel plow so it's flat and you don't have the need to ride outside the markers.
 

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Discussion Starter #35
The difference is my answer has actual evidence (photos) and scientific studies behind it:

A U.S. Department of the Interior environmental impact statement concluded: "A major distinction is
warranted between snowmobiles and other types of off-road vehicles. Snowmobiles operated on an adequate
snow cover have little effect on soils – and hence cause less severe indirect impacts on air and water quality,
and on soil-dependent biotic communities, than other ORVs do." It further stated that, "Where snowmobiles
are used exclusively over snow on roads and trails, the impact on vegetation is indeed virtually nil.”
A University of Wisconsin study found that snowmobile traffic had no effect on grain yield of winter wheat,
alfalfa, red clover plots, or grass legume. Species of turf grass showed slightly reduced yields at first harvest,
but were not negatively affected in subsequent harvests.
Research undertaken by the University of Maine concluded that "compaction by snowmobiling does not alter
the grain weight yields of alfalfa in Maine."
A Utah Water Resource Laboratory study found that snow compaction, caused by snowmobile tracks, does
not damage wheat crops. Instead, the compaction increases the yield and eliminates snow mold. Erosion is
also reduced.
There is no evidence that snow compaction caused by snowmobiling, ski-touring, or snowshoeing has a
significant impact on the population of small burrowing animals. "


What's that saying that people use to own the libs?

FACTS > FEELINGS
 

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The difference is my answer has actual evidence (photos) and scientific studies behind it:

A U.S. Department of the Interior environmental impact statement concluded: "A major distinction is
warranted between snowmobiles and other types of off-road vehicles. Snowmobiles operated on an adequate
snow cover have little effect on soils – and hence cause less severe indirect impacts on air and water quality,
and on soil-dependent biotic communities, than other ORVs do." It further stated that, "Where snowmobiles
are used exclusively over snow on roads and trails, the impact on vegetation is indeed virtually nil.”
A University of Wisconsin study found that snowmobile traffic had no effect on grain yield of winter wheat,
alfalfa, red clover plots, or grass legume. Species of turf grass showed slightly reduced yields at first harvest,
but were not negatively affected in subsequent harvests.
Research undertaken by the University of Maine concluded that "compaction by snowmobiling does not alter
the grain weight yields of alfalfa in Maine."
A Utah Water Resource Laboratory study found that snow compaction, caused by snowmobile tracks, does
not damage wheat crops. Instead, the compaction increases the yield and eliminates snow mold. Erosion is
also reduced.
There is no evidence that snow compaction caused by snowmobiling, ski-touring, or snowshoeing has a
significant impact on the population of small burrowing animals. "


What's that saying that people use to own the libs?

FACTS > FEELINGS

Facts - the land owner has the final say.

 

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Let's reiterate: Have you talked to your land owners? Whining to ANYONE else is useless, if the land owner is not on board with your proposal.
 

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These are seasonal Snowmobile trails on private property, not an Indy Car racetrack. Big deal if you have some 90 degree corners to deal with. Stay on trail.
 

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Discussion Starter #39
Facts - the land owner has the final say.

Have never suggested otherwise. Have said stay on trail many times in this thread.

Am suggesting if they're worried about actual damage, the worry is unfounded.
 

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The difference is my answer has actual evidence (photos) and scientific studies behind it:

A U.S. Department of the Interior environmental impact statement concluded: "A major distinction is
warranted between snowmobiles and other types of off-road vehicles. Snowmobiles operated on an adequate
snow cover have little effect on soils – and hence cause less severe indirect impacts on air and water quality,
and on soil-dependent biotic communities, than other ORVs do." It further stated that, "Where snowmobiles
are used exclusively over snow on roads and trails, the impact on vegetation is indeed virtually nil.”
A University of Wisconsin study found that snowmobile traffic had no effect on grain yield of winter wheat,
alfalfa, red clover plots, or grass legume. Species of turf grass showed slightly reduced yields at first harvest,
but were not negatively affected in subsequent harvests.
Research undertaken by the University of Maine concluded that "compaction by snowmobiling does not alter
the grain weight yields of alfalfa in Maine."
A Utah Water Resource Laboratory study found that snow compaction, caused by snowmobile tracks, does
not damage wheat crops. Instead, the compaction increases the yield and eliminates snow mold. Erosion is
also reduced.
There is no evidence that snow compaction caused by snowmobiling, ski-touring, or snowshoeing has a
significant impact on the population of small burrowing animals. "


What's that saying that people use to own the libs?

FACTS > FEELINGS
well maybe you cannot read your one FACTS your providing, the studies PROVED there is a loss in YIELDS In the first cut, and NONE of the studies have been done on kost planted CASH crops, like corn and beans

YES snowmobiles again can be driven on FROZEN grounds
but what your simply NOT understanding is, its NOT just the damage from the snowmobiles tracks and skid=es, that is the problem
its the FACT the snow turns to ice and then takes longer for that section of ground to warm up, and it will stay wet longer, further possibly causing problems for farmers

MOST of your studies were done by the way on snowmobile trails on roads and other area's where there isn't a BIG deal in how fats something recovers

MAYBE your OK with taking a 10% pay cut the first quarter of the yr
or maybe you'd like to NOT be able to go to work due to someone caused to problems and thus made you UNABLE to work , putting your whole plan behind, that can cost your THOUSANDS in delays!(yes extra muddy fields can take a LOT longer to dry, or cause equipment to burn more fuel, and or other things that can add up to MONEY!

the problem is, your NOT a farmer, and your NOT impacted by things so your ignorant to those that are!
add in the fact, Farmers DON"T HAVE TO< open there lands at all, you should be bending over backwards to see to it Farmers are thanks and not doing what they ask you NOT TO DO!

its ignorance like yours that give many snowmobiles a bad image, and why many trails get closed every yr!

your trying tos ell BS to folks that know more than you do
and someone like you with NOTHING vested financially, , your opinion is worthless! like your take on this subject!

the simple part here your small brain maybe cannot handle or comprehend is this

when the land isn;t your,s
you follows the rules the OWNERS ASKS, if not, your part of the problem!
rather simple, but sadly, I gather you don;t get it!
based on the countless attempts to try and , make it some other way where you have ALL the RIGHTS to do what ever you feel is OK, on someone else lands, showing your just a problem maker more than to cause someone else damage!
a shame, lack of respect, maybe some day you'll grow up and learn to follow the rules!

but gather this was all a waste on you!
 
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