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Discussion Starter #1
So near my house, there are a few fields. The ditches are super uneven/tippy, and the fields are on rolling hills. Since I have lived here, anyone who needs to 'ditch' ride down this road to the trail network does so when it is flat/safe, but on certain parts with a lot of culverts/rivers/angled sections so the path goes up the hill and rides the edge of the field.

Absolutely nobody goes out and tears up this dudes field, but there is a decently trafficked section along the edge of his farm field.

Here is a photo from last weekend; you can see that at least initially, you can see the difference from where the trail rode on the field, visible just to the right of the telephone poles. I will be updating this later in the year.

 

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Discussion Starter #3


Here is the same position. I can't see any difference at all. Unless people w paddle tracks are roaming around cornering sharply/doing burnouts on the field, I do not see how riding a snowmobile impacts vegetation growth at all. Basically, I feel like some farmers are just old people who like to bitch and complain.

I am not advocating driving off trail, I am not advocating being disrespectful to land owners, I am advocating for common sense. My area rides the side of this field to get from a residential area to the trail head. It's heavily used. It's not part of the trail network. Because of the angle of the culverts, you can either ride on the road and destroy your carbides/skis/hyfax, you can ride onone of the angles of the culvert and risk wrecking your sled because of drain pipes you can't see in the snow, or you can ride up onto this farmer's field, and ride respectfully on the edge of the field.

It causes no damage. I know some people will still complain, but this only reinforces my opinion about cutting corners on the trail network. When the corners get washed out, and down to the dirt, I feel like it is LESS DAMAGING/MORE RESPECTFUL to cut the corner and stay on actual snow. By continuing to just blast around the same 90 degree corner and riding down into the dirt, you are actually damaging the field. This is what the farmer sees in the spring, and we can LESSEN the damage to the fields by cutting the corners when they are down to the dirt.

Just my opinion, but's backed up with a hypothesis and very limited testing, so I feel there is some semblance of rationality behind it.
 

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well IMO< unless things have been mowed? there is a difference in how tall the vegetation, where the trail was and to farther into the field.
and one of the things most folks don't get , is when you PACK snow down from riding on it, its the last to melt
it alters the dry time of fields and can cause issues getting machinery in to prep fields
if ridden on in low snow condition, it can disturb and compact the soil
and pending what crop is in the ground being driven on matters too to how it will effect or NOT things

your small test area is not a very good example of things to be honest
your sticking to the edge of a field., near a road way that gets road salt I gather to help speed melting process(salt gets air born and travels from vehicles driving it when its dry on roads!(i also effects how plant grow too)


the larger issue for farmers (I am a part time one and know many)
is when folks randomly run all over fields in zigs and zags, and again it causes a lot of difference in when the soil dries to be able to work it, and it can throw off a time frame farmers have to get all field work done come time to do so!

think about this
if your late for work once, its NO big deal, but now say your late for work countless times due to EXTRA traffic(longer ice and snow and mud in fields from snow being compacted and taking longer to melt and thus dry dirt under it)
it starts to be a bigger issue for you, ONLY unlike you being able to leave sooner to deal with traffic, framers cannot be delayed, it throws off there whole planting and field prep work!
or forces them to have to do more work in a shorter period of time, trying to make up lost time,
which can be paying OVER TIME out to do so, or having to run equipment harder and loner, which then causes more repairs, and not greasing things at 8 hours as to 12 or more, wears parts out more and that costs more $$
so, as if you follow this,
it does cause farmers problem and costs, when folks DON"T stay off fields there NOT allowed on, or off trails where there To allowed to
I am NOT bitching here, just trying to give some info on why its a issue with many farmers/
and if nothing else
its also a RESPECT issues

if a farmer is NICE enough to open there l for a trail access, and folks abuse that GIFT they gave
, it is rather insulating
they DON"T have to open there lands up at all remember! and very few really get anything for doing so!
so, respect is something all riders should have for other, land owners or other riders period!
 

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I’ve used a Tucker Snow-Cat for work in winter. A year ago I needed to cross an alfalfa field in January. We had cold temps and a small base of snow. Even in mid summer I could tell where I went diagonally across the field. The alfalfa stand was shorter and stunted where tracks traveled. And this was from a one pass only
 

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I took this pic the other day. Whatever is growing was planted in the fall. You can see where the trail went diagonally through the field. It's much more obvious in person.


Sent from my SM-G965W using Tapatalk
 

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Let it Snows pic is a better representation. Along the road like op pic, its hard to say if that shorter growth is from riding, or heavy snow and salt from road plows.
 

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This issue shows up even more on fields left alone and let grow naturally and only cut periodically. We cross a few properties like this that are hobby farms and even mid summer you can see the exact route the groomer takes. This time of year the trail portion is still dead and yellow looking and both sides is green and growing. It gets less noticeable further into the summer but is still visible.
 

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field edges typically always get less yields, due to over browsing from wildlife, so when you add in the compaction and such from sleds, snow, ice, even road salt and such, your making an even lower yielding section to the farmers to have to swallow, making them even less profitable!
most farmers allow this to happen in places they PICK, because they know there already taking a hit on the sections they allow things on!
most again, are OK knowing this, and there being NICE doing so s well!
as it again does cost them $$ to allow trails on there lands and fields, like it or not this is a fact and most do this, without every getting anything back, or worse, many get flack from not allowing more , over being thanked for what they allow!

SO< again, when some riders then go and ride on other places on there lands they do NOT want the down sides and added costs, it will piss them off and is very disrespectful to them, your now effecting there lively hood, taking more $$ out of there pockets!

this is why NO ONE should NOT ride freely off trail unless you have permission period! or know its LEGALLY allowed to be done there!

respect is something we all like to get and when he get disrespected I am sure all of us take it personally, add in when it now costs you money>> and you'll start to see the bigger picture, and problem here when this stuff happens!
again, to many folks little things don't seem like big deals, but when you know more about how things really work, them tracks and trails from riders thru fields, can add up to a lot of surface area in land that has lower yields, thus lowing a farmers bottom line and income and very lively hood

dealing with weather is hard enough, they have NO control over that, but they should have control over folks riding on there lands or NOT, its only right and fair to expect this

As I doubt many folks , if they would be really honest, would like folks randomly driving thru there yards at free will at any hour day or night, and it ending up costing you money from them doing so! even if its only 1-2-5 times a yr,
each time I bet it will piss you off! LOL
even if NO damage happens, you will still be mad some A hole drove thru your yard
its life, its about respect of what is your's and what is others!
 

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Same here..we had lots of unharvested crop out this winter.Farmers are chocked..Next winter trails will take a major change again..Not much fun for us volenteers to beg farmers for a detour..
 

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Hate to say it (again....), but here it is; there are a pile of asshole sledders out there!
I operate the groomer in my parts and I get to see a different view than most, as I am only doing 3-10mph and have time to notice lots of stupid shit.
Also I get or hear of, the phone calls from farmers and property owners who are pissed about selfish dicks who like to blast powder off trail in fields or think that the offtrail riding is theirs to use as they see fit.
If we don't self-police this, then we are just sitting by waiting for the next closure. No one else is going to stop this shit....cops don't sit at private property, landowners can only bitch so much, and club volunteers don't have time to babysit....so the onus is on the people who ride with the trespassers (cause the perpetrators obviously don't get it) to call them out, report them, and don't ride with them. They are fucking it up for you!
 

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we had this discussion a few months ago, and I can't for the life of me understand why you (cash68) has to continually beat this horse with your opinion. I'm going to say it as clearly and plainly as I can. THE FARMERS OWN THE LAND, THEREFOR THEY DECIDE WHERE AND IF YOU HAVE THE PRIVILEGE TO RIDE ON IT. They don't give a flying fuck about your opinion or pics of the field vs the edge of the field (which btw you can clearly see the difference in the hay). To them its business in a climate thats already hard to do business in, and they dont need a bunch of idiot snowmobilers making it any harder for them.
 

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Anyone else find it laughable that the amount of effort that's been put into trying to prove a point (with pictures & posts) could have been avoided if someone would just STAY ON THE TRAIL?

Let's face it @cash68 - this is just like politics. You're never going to change someone else's mind, no matter how right you think you & your view are.
 

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Landowners don't need a reason not to let trails across their land..NO is enough...
Then we move on to find a reroute ...More and more are taking the what IF thinking before they say YES to us...
 

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Discussion Starter #16
I think you people bringing up groomers and sno cats are missing the point. The weight of those machines is MUCH higher per square foot than a 400-500lb sled. Obviously a real groomer will show signs of where the trail was, because its' huge and super heavy. This was never up for debate.

This ISNT a trail. It's just an access 'trail' that is never groomed. Due to the inclines of the ditches and culverts, people go up the hill and ride on the edge of the field.

I'm using this to state why I think 'cutting corners' is okay, when the corner is blown out into the dirt. Riding on fresh snow causes LESS DAMAGE than blowing out the corner and continuing to dig down into the dirt.

I think common sense is missing form a lot of people, and a lot of people here try to say STAY ON TRAILS AT ALL TIEMS 100%!!!!! and I do. Unless the corner is blown out. Then I cut. I feel like this is better to the land owner and my sled, but obviously this is discretionary and needs good judgement, and would be hard to police.
 

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I think you people bringing up groomers and sno cats are missing the point. The weight of those machines is MUCH higher per square foot than a 400-500lb sled. Obviously a real groomer will show signs of where the trail was, because its' huge and super heavy. This was never up for debate.

This ISNT a trail. It's just an access 'trail' that is never groomed. Due to the inclines of the ditches and culverts, people go up the hill and ride on the edge of the field.

I'm using this to state why I think 'cutting corners' is okay, when the corner is blown out into the dirt. Riding on fresh snow causes LESS DAMAGE than blowing out the corner and continuing to dig down into the dirt.

I think common sense is missing form a lot of people, and a lot of people here try to say STAY ON TRAILS AT ALL TIEMS 100%!!!!! and I do. Unless the corner is blown out. Then I cut. I feel like this is better to the land owner and my sled, but obviously this is discretionary and needs good judgement, and would be hard to police.
And then another, and another, and then another sled cuts the same corner. Defeats the purpose of crushing one single path the land owner has so generously allowed us to track across his/her field.
 

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I think you people bringing up groomers and sno cats are missing the point. The weight of those machines is MUCH higher per square foot than a 400-500lb sled. Obviously a real groomer will show signs of where the trail was, because its' huge and super heavy. This was never up for debate.

This ISNT a trail. It's just an access 'trail' that is never groomed. Due to the inclines of the ditches and culverts, people go up the hill and ride on the edge of the field.

I'm using this to state why I think 'cutting corners' is okay, when the corner is blown out into the dirt. Riding on fresh snow causes LESS DAMAGE than blowing out the corner and continuing to dig down into the dirt.

I think common sense is missing form a lot of people, and a lot of people here try to say STAY ON TRAILS AT ALL TIMES 100%!!!!! and I do. Unless the corner is blown out. Then I cut. I feel like this is better to the land owner and my sled, but obviously this is discretionary and needs good judgement, and would be hard to police.
like stated the problem, then becomes the blown out area gets larger and larger and then the farmer has more and more land with more compaction and lesser yields
and or again, just pisses them off, due to the area they ALLOWED folks to ride is being taken advantage of, not staying on the chosen path!
which is like adding insult to injury.

like it or not, when a land owner allows you to USE there property,. the best thing you can do is stay on the trail thru there property, as they asked for for
they are not asking YOU or anyone else to make NEW decisions for them , and or expand a trail due to YOU< thinking your helping them, when your NOT!

like it or not, its there land and always will be, and a its a privilege to use there land, least one should do is follow there wishes and respect them for allowing what they do, on there lands!
and!!
ignorance will never be appreciated , and in most cases it only ends with lands getting closed, or loss of trails!
is blowing out a corner really worth the risks of causing this??
just stay on trail, eat a little dirt if need be, its NOT that big a deal or costs(as if you don;t care about costing land owners $$ you should be fine with any extra wear and tear on your sled too no?? its only money right?? )
bottom line is, its NOT your LAND, , so the decision on where you can ride on the land is NOT YOUR:S to make! and if you cannot follow the rules and stay ion trails, you shouldnl;t be riding the trails at all! as YOU are the problem rider!
based on FACTS of your actions! and thinking your know better than the land owner!, just wrong 100% here! and hope some day you grow up and realize this, and tell others the same thing, STAY ON TRAIL< or some day there won;t be many trails at all! its getting worse and harder every yr to gain access to make trails, maybe you should try joining a club and taking part in what all it takes to gain access by talking to land owners with clubs, it might make you see things in a whole new light when you actually have hands on experience in working with land owners! and hearing there complaints and how hard it is to get them to continue to have trails on there lands!

better than starting a post about things and trying to convince riders its OK to do as you please at times if you THINK your helping!

real help, is taking a part in a club and working with land owners,
Rather than trying to convince others your wrong doings are OK, if YOU think there OK!
 

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Discussion Starter #19
I am in a club and I do help. I'm just sharing my small experience and opinion. That's what discussion forums are for. Feel free to share your experiments and opinions. :)

This also goes back to my complaints about the way some clubs lay out their trails. If they put a decent radius in the corners, instead of a sharp 90 fucking degree corner in the middle of a field, it would NOT get blown out. But because whoever put in the trail decided that was how it is going to be, people have corner super hard/go so slow, and then once they're past the apex, they floor it to accelerate out of the corner, and blow all the snow out, which exasperates the issue.

If there was some sort of guidelines/standards on how to lay out trails, aka, put in a radiused corner, this would prevent corner blowout/dirt, and encourage people to stay on the trails.
 
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