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Different state, same problem. Always said the most dangerous part of a car is the nut holding the steering wheel, as for sleds it's the nut holding the handlebars.

A Marquette County Sheriff's Office Badge (WLUC image) (WLUC)
By Andrew LaCombe
Published: Mar. 13, 2022 at 12:01 PM EDT|Updated: 21 hours ago
MARQUETTE TOWNSHIP, Mich. (WLUC) - Serious injuries were reported after a snowmobile crash in Marquette Township Saturday afternoon.
According to the Marquette County Sheriff’s Office, a 19-year-old man attending Northern Michigan University, originally from Lower Michigan, decided to exit DNR Snowmobile Trail #14 and ride in a prohibited area.
Investigators determined the snowmobile was going very fast and couldn’t stop before going over a steep hill. The snowmobile flipped over a couple of times. The Marquette County Sheriff’s Office responded to the crash at 2:47 p.m. Saturday.
The operator of the snowmobile was extricated using rope rescue techniques and brought up to a rescue sled. He was taken to an ambulance and then to UP Health System-Marquette with serious injuries. The snowmobiler’s name has not been released.
The crash remains under investigation. Excessive speed and operating in unfamiliar terrain were contributing factors in the crash, the sheriff’s office says.
UPHS EMS and Marquette Township Fire and Rescue assisted at the scene.

Snowmobiler seriously injured in Marquette County crash
 

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How do we as sledders (responsible sledders) help to deter this kind of wrong-headed narrcisstic action? Not rhetorical. I'm looking for suggestions.

It seems the remedies are always to apologize, put up signs, try "diplomacy" etc. But none of those things are pre-emptive.

Last weekend we observed so many rude, careless, and irresponsible riders.
And that was in a restaurant parking lot. (Not in ME)
Same people came in to an eatery, loud, rude to staff, selfish entitled a-holes. I apologized to the manager for their behavior.

And these weren't kids. They were adults. And as I quietly asked a couple of folks to at least "shut the door" as they filed in with no regard for anyone or anybody but themselves, for a woman like me it is very difficult not to be vocal.

Now, I know many people do not say anything to these kinds of people. And that's a big mistake.

If someone goes through their life never hearing what others think about their negative actions they will never ever learn.
I'm of the firm opinion that not speaking up is just as bad.

I'm not a "self appointed sheriff" but damn it enough is enough.

I've been snowmobiling since age 5. And I cannot stomach this any longer. It's wrong. It hurts our sport. It's putting a black mark on our sport.

My old man and I do not hesitate to say something anymore. I'll handle the consequences. That is my choice. But it's past time for us to do something.

I've eliminated these types of riders from my "circle". And I've told them why. I do not need or want friends who ruin it for everyone else.

The place I referred to is a VT "hot spot" and I really feel bad for the folks in that town who have to put up with it. And the reason I rarely ride that area.

What do you folks suggest? How do you handle this? The club's have enough on their plates ffs. In VT it's all volunteers. God bless each and every one of them. Thankless job if you ask me.
Your underlining point is well understood and it is why we are having so many problems with society and newer generations... we are not calling out the bad decisions and behavior directly! There are no consequences for their actions . Everyone else actually pays the price!
 

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how about instead of blaming an "entire generation" we take a look at the parents.........and or the lack of morals and values that were clearly not instilled, which you mentioned.
.
I have stated many times I do 100% feel much of this stuff is due to parents that didn;t raise there kids well, knowing right and wrong and having morals and respecting others both persons and there property!
I have also said I don;t feel its any 1 generation, but its typically from my experience with catching a few hundred trespassers over the past say 20 yrs!
as a major amount of those I have caught were with parents or grand parents, so its basically learned behavior from parents/grand parents!
and even worse, many times I would catch kids, and hold them for there parents to come get them, and then have there PARENTS argue with me hows this isn;t a big deal, further showing me, its a parent thing, and it again runs generations deep in many families
one iof the dairy farms I was a part of, for a 30+ yr period, every yr a cow would get shot in hunting season
every time we managed to catch the person, it was always an entitlement issue and did it out of revenge for NOT being allowed on the land(they still , they felt due to they lived near by, they grew up near by , parents ONCE had access to this farm, and so on, and they felt that GAVE them the right to be there NO matter what the owners of the land felt, or posted or?? they felt they were OWED the right to be there !

and pretty much all of these folks were all caught several times previously(and even afterwards) and asked to just leave, no on ever took them to court in the first dozen or so times they were caught prior to the killing of a cow!
being nice never worked on them, or trying to explain to them things were now different!
they were stuck in there mind sets and refused to change

these same people had KIDS, and we caught there kids yrs later,, heck one day I caught 3 generations of them and a few cousins all in one bunch doing a 16 man deer drive, was a pretty much family event!

so yes, I blame parents
I do NOT feel its 1 generation ONLY doing these things,, my proof to me has been how many I have caught and the reasons they gave m,e and ,law enforcement, its a sad game they play, but to them it is sort of that a game
they play and hope they don't get caught
and when caught, IMO< few learn anything based on the poor laws on things, unless again you can get them on a felony charge, then SOME times that changes them, but not always!
 

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I know who these idiots are, or at least I know what they ride. Its the same idiots that came around a corner going warp factor 5 and washed out in front of me and into the woods. Yeah, crossing right in front of me and kept flying threw the timber. The only downside is that they didn't hit a tree and kill themselves. If I was another 100 feet father down the trail and we'd both be dead. Had they hit a tree, (or 2) I would have stomped on their bleeding neck(s) for damaging the bark on the tree. Everyone in the group had a backpack with a small shovel sticking up. Yeah for the U.P. in Michigan! That was last year when the only rideable snow was close to Lake Superior. Over crowded as hell. This year was the same situation, almost zero snow in the Lower Peninsula and plenty in the Yooper. This is the first year that I didnt ride my sled. ( 2nd year actually, a few years back I broke my ankle in January) My kids put a few miles on the sleds around the house for about an hour this year before the snow disappeared. Time to drain last years gas out and put in fresh for the summer storage. I think I saw a bumper sticker on the front of one of their sleds that read "rules are for pussies" or something close to that.
 

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^^^^^
You both hit that nail right on the head.

I can tell that (unfortunately) there are too many who have that mindset.

It's like growing up there were maybe 2 or 3 "bullies" in my town. We all knew who they were. And they were the minority of kids.

Now, we have a greater percentage of "bullies" (look at social media; I swear some people use it only to hurt others). How easy it is to sit behind a screen, run their mouths and get away with it.

Awe, but that's fun right? What's the point of FB and forums if not to trash other people? And not to their face...but like little cowards in their echo chambers.

I mean getting along and treating each other with respect (and actually using humor in the real sense) isn't cool, right?

It's so hard core to be an a-hole. I've always wondered exactly how that is defined here and elsewhere.

It seems that term means:
Riding with no concern for anyone but self
Going wherever you feel entitled to
Damaging property...to include one's own snowmobile
General disregard for what is right or reasonable
Violent and destructive
Relentlessly creating chaos and trouble
Picking on people for no reason whatsoever and pretending "It's all in good fun".


I'm sure is missed a few.

I went through a terrible difficult surgery, left with life long "impairments", came out ok on the other side.. And my favorite past time, snowmobiling, could be what does me in due to the irresponsibility of another.

And seeing the frustration on the faces of good people who allow total strangers access to their "home". Guys I'm sorry I'm stuck on this. I kills me that the landowners and clubs get treated like garbage.

I'm embarrassed by these people. Anyway, this for me was about someone's animal (horse) and how unfair it is that a small few can ruin something so wonderful.
 

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Whoever introduced these people to the sport, whether it be parents, friends, a group, or maybe nobody, seriously dropped the ball.

I don't think anything would have stopped the particular idiots in the first post. But I often wonder if more of an emphasis was put on informing people where you CAN ride off trail, if that would help, no one wants to give up their spots and see them get crowded though.
 

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Whoever introduced these people to the sport, whether it be parents, friends, a group, or maybe nobody, seriously dropped the ball.

I don't think anything would have stopped the particular idiots in the first post. But I often wonder if more of an emphasis was put on informing people where you CAN ride off trail, if that would help, no one wants to give up their spots and see them get crowded though.
I can agree it would be nice to have better info on where or IF off trail access is allowed
but the simple facts are, if you DON"T have permission to go off trail and your NOT SURE
the simple answer is DON"T go off trail
the saying, rather ask for forgiveness over permission,
is a BS excuse far too many feel will get them out of trouble!
and the same goes for folks with deep pockets, just cause you have money, doesn.;t mean your above the rules!
as this isn;t a cheap sport like it or not, many that got into this sport did so on parents dime at first, so sort of a spoiled start, like it or not
NOT everyone that lives where it snows, had that growing up, due top means and costs involved!
so again a lot of it falls back to parents and up bringing!
 

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One thing I forgot to mention, 3 out that group of 4 sleds had "cans" installed. It's the " look at me" syndrome. My hope is that they completed their mission and are dead or even better, in a wheel chair permanently. I think these people who clearly cannot read, grew up under the power lines.
 

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Venting helps me. Also I know there are many like minded folks who wish this would get addressed.
Yes there needs to be consequences or the offenders will continue.

I read in a local newspaper up in the NEK (as an example of that) about a shoplifter. The store decided not to just "let it go" and prosecuted the thief. And the offending party had their named published.

That needs to happen as well as other more "strict" remedies.

Please understand that I remember a time of small-bore machines with limited range. And far less people utilizing the trail system. (For what it's worth I started riding at the infancy of the trail system). Common sense and respect for others seemed to me to be more common.

Arrogant destructive behaviour wasn't so wide spread. If these people whom we are talking about had to suffer the consequences of their actions, or better still folks came to their home and did these things on their land they'd be singing a different tune.

On another note, I just snapped these pics of the buck who has been chomping on my shrubs. Guy comes right up to my front door (literally) and munches away. I don't care because those shrubs are getting ripped out. But my raised beds are a few feet away.

He's one handsome guy but tic tic tic his time on this planet is short...
You can get electronic ultrasound dear chasers. and repellent spray to make your shrubs not so tasty. We use both every fall when it snows or our 90ft. cedar hedge that we cultivated from 4' hand dug tree-farm cedars would be gone. In 2018 we got back from Tenn. mid november and didn't do it since we got 16" 2 days after we returned and barely had time to do the mower/snowblower switch. Deer had a picnic! We use 2 ultrasonic chasers every winter powered by extension cords on house current. It works.
 

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a few more of them turkeys, they would come to the door and beg! they would gobble there brains out at times , some times way too much!
and maybe all you turkey hunters might enjoy these? they were some nice gobblers, but in the neighborhood, they were not allowed to be hunted at this property I have,

View attachment 2131825 View attachment 2131829 View attachment 2131830 View attachment 2131831 View attachment 2131832
View attachment 2131827
Thars no "bird dog" you have!
 

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Backpacks are taboo too, because why bother being prepared and caring extra gear
I know right.......heaven forbid someone in a group be prepared.

You know what I don't get about the "older generation" they act like they never did anything stupid broke any laws, or caused any chaos when they were younger.........yet one guy with a can at a gas station cause an entire thread here or anywhere on the internet to turn into a millennials vs boomers argument. I'm really sick of it to be honest.

I've heard plenty of stories from the older generation about the following, trespassing to ride dirt bikes, using snowmobile trails as deer hunting trails, riding till 4 in the morning, rocking loud pipes and gouging up trails.

The younger generation has every right to ride the same trails you old timers do, if you see someone doing something wrong, go talk to them, don't be a raging prick about it, but talk to them, and explain how it has a negative affect on us as a whole within the snowmobile community.

If we don't have another generation of riders behind us there will be no riding to be had.
 

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Discussion Starter · #55 ·
"I've heard plenty of stories from the older generation about the following, trespassing to ride dirt bikes, using snowmobile trails as deer hunting trails, riding till 4 in the morning, rocking loud pipes and gouging up trails.

The younger generation has every right to ride the same trails you old timers do, if you see someone doing something wrong, go talk to them, don't be a raging prick about it, but talk to them, and explain how it has a negative affect on us as a whole within the snowmobile community.

If we don't have another generation of riders behind us there will be no riding to be had."

Gdub41, let me address your quotes above. First off, and not to make out like the 'older generation' didn't do these things but, I do believe there are much greater negative consequences now and much more litigation. The current results today of those actions are - CLOSED TRAILS - period, end of story. Back then, the majority of the riding was done in your local area thus SOMEONE knew who you were and if you f-d up your Dad was waiting for you with a severe punishment. Now, no one knows who the heck anyone is who are doing these things so it's easier to just close the trail down.

Yes, the younger generation has a right to ride those trails that we did. We also did all the work to get those trails put in for future generations use. Please respect that and don't screw it up for everyone else with loud cans, off-trailing and late night excursions to blow up freshly groomed trails. I was a former Trail Master for a club in the Monadnock Region of Southern NH and I know the work it takes to get permissions every year from landowners and have cleared my share of trails and put up signs and fencing and have dealt with the consequences of inconsiderate riders NOT following rules. I did my 10 years and now I'm no longer a club official (not for many years now) but I understand the process and how hard it is.

I do hope younger people keep the sport alive. I have several grandchildren that are just learning to ride on trails (although they have been racing for several years). I am looking forward to the day when we can go out together for family rides and I can teach them trail etiquette.
 

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Tough thread. Tough comparisons from old days and today. Back then all sleds were loud and it was fine but now a loud can is somehow illegal and your a bad guy even if you use that can responsibly? "LIKE ME" It's not in any way a look at me thing but those who think so can have their opinion on it. In the old days you piss off a land owner and he might just meet you with a gun on your next passing through. Shit like this happened when I was young. Land owners took how their property was used into their own hands. They'd teach you a lesson in one way or another. Maybe go talk to your parents and then you get your ass kicked and your sled taken away when you get home. Today if the landowner comes out with a gun or a baseball bat and they go to jail. Because they can't today deal with people directly in a manner that gets the point across quickly. Their only legal course of action today is to call the fish cops or choose to close a trail down. Today when parents are brought into the situation of their kids disrespecting trails they too often stand behind their kids actions and call out that landowner or find some other way to spin it off that their kids were doing nothing wrong. "Not all cases but arguably shit that happens more often today." In the old days you got punched or beaten for being a dick. The old ways of being taught respect today are thought of as ruthless. People back in the day talked and dealt with each other face to face and fixed issues more often without involving police. Today they can't do or say shit so their forced to call the fish cops and close trails instead of directly facing issues and directly taking issues into their own hands. I rode fast and wreckless when I was young. We all did. Just being honest. Maybe there were some pussy riders that drove safe and slow but I certainly never knew any and certainly didn't ride with any of them. People still ride hard today only there's more people on the trails so no argument it's more dangerous. Back then we were more apt to hurt ourselves and that was a risk well worth taking for the fun of it all in my opinion. Back then there were more local people on the trails where people knew each other and it was easier to straighten out the bad events that happened and get to the source of who were the bad guys Saturday night and they were dealt with. Today it's less often locals or even people from a few towns away but rather riders from 7 different states out there on the trails. "Another arguable comment?" I think locals have more respect for their trails then the guys that come from away to tear shit up and then leave?? "Debatable again I guess?" I'm getting older and not as wild as I once was but I haven't forgotten what it was like to be young and full of piss and vinegar. To say I'm a completely innocent rider today that does everything perfectly and abides every law would be a lie. Sledding today is completely different as a sport if you ask me when comparing it to what it once was. The world is different. How we deal with each other is completely different. We can't call people out for what they are or it's insulting and uncalled for today. We can't take things into our own hands to deal with people that treat us or others wrongly on our own anymore or even on our own property. The trails are better today then they used to be. The sleds are better today too but the old days were much more fun before everybody flocked here to complicate managing trail systems. I think just about every post here has something said that drives to be arguable and pisses somebody off. This opinion of mine I know will be no different. "FLAME AWAY"
 

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Tough thread. Tough comparisons from old days and today. Back then all sleds were loud and it was fine but now a loud can is somehow illegal and your a bad guy even if you use that can responsibly? "LIKE ME" It's not in any way a look at me thing but those who think so can have their opinion on it. In the old days you piss off a land owner and he might just meet you with a gun on your next passing through. Shit like this happened when I was young. Land owners took how their property was used into their own hands. They'd teach you a lesson in one way or another. Maybe go talk to your parents and then you get your ass kicked and your sled taken away when you get home. Today if the landowner comes out with a gun or a baseball bat and they go to jail. Because they can't today deal with people directly in a manner that gets the point across quickly. Their only legal course of action today is to call the fish cops or choose to close a trail down. Today when parents are brought into the situation of their kids disrespecting trails they too often stand behind their kids actions and call out that landowner or find some other way to spin it off that their kids were doing nothing wrong. "Not all cases but arguably shit that happens more often today." In the old days you got punched or beaten for being a dick. The old ways of being taught respect today are thought of as ruthless. People back in the day talked and dealt with each other face to face and fixed issues more often without involving police. Today they can't do or say shit so their forced to call the fish cops and close trails instead of directly facing issues and directly taking issues into their own hands. I rode fast and wreckless when I was young. We all did. Just being honest. Maybe there were some pussy riders that drove safe and slow but I certainly never knew any and certainly didn't ride with any of them. People still ride hard today only there's more people on the trails so no argument it's more dangerous. Back then we were more apt to hurt ourselves and that was a risk well worth taking for the fun of it all in my opinion. Back then there were more local people on the trails where people knew each other and it was easier to straighten out the bad events that happened and get to the source of who were the bad guys Saturday night and they were dealt with. Today it's less often locals or even people from a few towns away but rather riders from 7 different states out there on the trails. "Another arguable comment?" I think locals have more respect for their trails then the guys that come from away to tear shit up and then leave?? "Debatable again I guess?" I'm getting older and not as wild as I once was but I haven't forgotten what it was like to be young and full of piss and vinegar. To say I'm a completely innocent rider today that does everything perfectly and abides every law would be a lie. Sledding today is completely different as a sport if you ask me when comparing it to what it once was. The world is different. How we deal with each other is completely different. We can't call people out for what they are or it's insulting and uncalled for today. We can't take things into our own hands to deal with people that treat us or others wrongly on our own anymore or even on our own property. The trails are better today then they used to be. The sleds are better today too but the old days were much more fun before everybody flocked here to complicate managing trail systems. I think just about every post here has something said that drives to be arguable and pisses somebody off. This opinion of mine I know will be no different. "FLAME AWAY"
I agree we all did some stupid things with sleds, or anything else back in the day when young and dumb, but i grew up.
 

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I agree we all did some stupid things with sleds, or anything else back in the day when young and dumb, but i grew up.
I also did my share, but to be honest, back then, things were not as critical as they are today and there wasn't the information out there to be had so easy, to know NOT to do many of the things we did back then,
then add in again, many of our parents did the same things we did, or even taught us to do them, or approved of us doing them. or were just OK with us doing them!
I mean, My parents knew I rode my MX bikes down roads and used to ride on private property, I had NO clue who owned it, nor did they!
only time they got involved was if the police came to them, to say somethings, which was rare, as in my young days, , even the police didn;t enforce many things, unless they had strong complaints from the right people!
as in they too would turn a blind eye if you were riding down a road in RURAL area's to get to a more secluded place to ride!
we didn;t have any real designated trail systems open to the public when I was a kid, or none I knew of
the name of the game back then was ride pretty much where ever, till someone complained, IF they complained,
THEN you either moved on to else where or, some continued to ride there!
again, PARENTS in them days, were or seemed happy there kids just were not home bothering them, so, unless the LAW showed up to involve them into things, we KIDS< rode where we wanted, it was just how it was
I'm not saying it was right what was done back then, as it was WRONG, but it was common practice in many places

as information came about, along with a LOT of liability from law suits, where property owners got sued when someone fell and got hurt, even when they were trespassing(and a lot of it was also due to folks dumping trash and land owners having to PAY fines for it as well as the costs of cleaning it all up)
that is what caused MOST places I know of to get shut down to things, and the AR started on keeping folks out of others properties!

but in today's world and society, the information is easy to be had, that you cannot DO "X" on a sled or Bike or atv/utv,
There has been decades now of trespassing info, that its a BAD Illegal thing to do, and that riding where your NOT allowed or have permission to ride is also!
Its info like this that is about now as to back then!
the LOUD pipes, that also has been an issue for a long time now, so it shouldn;t any excuse to say there OK on trails, or one didn;t know!!

so, to try and compare what was done yrs ago, as to modern times, is not really a fair comparison IMO not defending what was done yrs ago, just saying!
its just not the same!
there wasn't the negative's or as many, way back when, as to current times, all the more so since modern times, where everyone has a video camera on them and almost everything is caught on camera!
which quite honestly, should be a bigger deterrent NOW as to back then,!
as I am sure that there are many folks here that, if there were camera;'s every where ,
like there are now,
when many of us older folks here rode and did things, WE(i'll include myself here)
odds are we would have been in jail by now, or had a lot of fines, and or would have just NOT done many of the things we did!


as yrs ago, there was a much larger GREY area in life, due to, you could do many things and NO one would ever know! it was a smaller less populated world just a few decades ago folks where you could do more Grey area things~
 

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I also did my share, but to be honest, back then, things were not as critical as they are today and there wasn't the information out there to be had so easy, to know NOT to do many of the things we did back then,
then add in again, many of our parents did the same things we did, or even taught us to do them, or approved of us doing them. or were just OK with us doing them!
I mean, My parents knew I rode my MX bikes down roads and used to ride on private property, I had NO clue who owned it, nor did they!
only time they got involved was if the police came to them, to say somethings, which was rare, as in my young days, , even the police didn;t enforce many things, unless they had strong complaints from the right people!
as in they too would turn a blind eye if you were riding down a road in RURAL area's to get to a more secluded place to ride!
we didn;t have any real designated trail systems open to the public when I was a kid, or none I knew of
the name of the game back then was ride pretty much where ever, till someone complained, IF they complained,
THEN you either moved on to else where or, some continued to ride there!
again, PARENTS in them days, were or seemed happy there kids just were not home bothering them, so, unless the LAW showed up to involve them into things, we KIDS< rode where we wanted, it was just how it was
I'm not saying it was right what was done back then, as it was WRONG, but it was common practice in many places

as information came about, along with a LOT of liability from law suits, where property owners got sued when someone fell and got hurt, even when they were trespassing(and a lot of it was also due to folks dumping trash and land owners having to PAY fines for it as well as the costs of cleaning it all up)
that is what caused MOST places I know of to get shut down to things, and the AR started on keeping folks out of others properties!

but in today's world and society, the information is easy to be had, that you cannot DO "X" on a sled or Bike or atv/utv,
There has been decades now of trespassing info, that its a BAD Illegal thing to do, and that riding where your NOT allowed or have permission to ride is also!
Its info like this that is about now as to back then!
the LOUD pipes, that also has been an issue for a long time now, so it shouldn;t any excuse to say there OK on trails, or one didn;t know!!

so, to try and compare what was done yrs ago, as to modern times, is not really a fair comparison IMO not defending what was done yrs ago, just saying!
its just not the same!
there wasn't the negative's or as many, way back when, as to current times, all the more so since modern times, where everyone has a video camera on them and almost everything is caught on camera!
which quite honestly, should be a bigger deterrent NOW as to back then,!
as I am sure that there are many folks here that, if there were camera;'s every where ,
like there are now,
when many of us older folks here rode and did things, WE(i'll include myself here)
odds are we would have been in jail by now, or had a lot of fines, and or would have just NOT done many of the things we did!


as yrs ago, there was a much larger GREY area in life, due to, you could do many things and NO one would ever know! it was a smaller less populated world just a few decades ago folks where you could do more Grey area things~
Yep, we did all the same back in the day. We had just about every town cop, and state epo after us at one time or another. They never caught us...lot of close ones though. Geez if only they had cameras back in the day, even i'd like to see some of those pictures of us doing those stupid stunts like landing off a 20' hight pile of dirt into a mud pit.
 

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It certainly was awesome!! That's why I said trails and sleds are better today but the old days were way more fun. Kids today have no idea how good we had it back in the old days. They think we had it bad because we had no crazy tech gaming, computers, lap tops and cell phones. I honestly think if we could back time up and get rid of all this shit things would be better than they are now. I had the idea of not having a cell phone for work and how convenient it has become BUT.... Shit I remember the days when you worked all day and had to wait until you got home after work to then grab the rotary phone and call customers to line up what was the best course of action to do the next day when back at work. Funny for the mid day conversation when it had to happen we'd drive miles to get to a phone booth to drop a dime in. Haha.... Kids today just can't even believe that shit. I think it's funny as shit. The funny part is, I don't feel that old

You are right MRBB... You really can't compare today to the yesteryears.
 
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