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Adding my 2c, 650 is more than likely the turbo motor coming. Put a turbo on an efficient 650 and kicking the crap out of the big bores would be intriguing.
Makes some sense. Laying off the throttle it would be a fuel efficient machine. Pinch the flipper to 160鈥檌sh hp 馃ぃ. I would think they could have a flat land sled version of this.
 

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Discussion Starter #42
Where did you get the idea it was designed to make max HP on pump 87?

Where did you get the idea it has one ignition/fuel curve?

There is a difference between saying it gets the most power possible out of pump 87 (it is optimized for that fuel, when running that fuel)
and that it does not make more hp when running higher octane, and different DET/EGT/etc. sensor inputs and a different fuel type setting.
I agree with you that if there is a setting on the display to switch from 87 to 91 then yes you would see more performance. But from my understanding the 650 doesn't have that option, it's just one map/ignition curve. I thought I read it someplace, but I can't find it. Must have been when I was in conversation with the dealer while checking out the Matryx and placing the order. And maybe I'm totally wrong and their is two maps one for 87 one for 91.
 

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My question is if you are on a 800HO currently will you be happy switching to the 650?

Because I would never go back to a 600 after having the 800HO.
 

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Going from the 800 ho to the 650 will not have such an extreme drop in performance. The 650 is a whole different animal compared to the peaky, lack of torque 600. Now it is down 20 hp, but if that is what you need then you have the 850. I think the 650 closes the gap better.
 

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I agree with you that if there is a setting on the display to switch from 87 to 91 then yes you would see more performance. But from my understanding the 650 doesn't have that option, it's just one map/ignition curve. I thought I read it someplace, but I can't find it. Must have been when I was in conversation with the dealer while checking out the Matryx and placing the order. And maybe I'm totally wrong and their is two maps one for 87 one for 91.
While riding with engineer Ben and Marty Sampson we asked about the fuel needs on the 650. They said the engine is optimized to run best on 87 E10 fuel. No performance gain will be had from filling up with premium fuel. You can most certainly run 91+ E free fuel if you wish. You'll just have a lighter wallet.

Once the compression is bumped up and aftermarket makes a new tune I can see a performance increase with better fuel.

To the best of my knowledge there is only one fuel setting on the 650. I'm going to find out for sure though.
 

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Discussion Starter #46
Thank you for relaying the info from the engineers that I have been trying to express, but obviously don't have first hand knowledge because I have not rode the thing yet, lol.
 

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I鈥檓 thinking more this motor is where Polaris dips it鈥檚 toes in the factory turbo zone. Wasn鈥檛 thinking aftermarket.
 

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While riding with engineer Ben and Marty Sampson we asked about the fuel needs on the 650. They said the engine is optimized to run best on 87 E10 fuel. No performance gain will be had from filling up with premium fuel. You can most certainly run 91+ E free fuel if you wish. You'll just have a lighter wallet.

Once the compression is bumped up and aftermarket makes a new tune I can see a performance increase with better fuel.

To the best of my knowledge there is only one fuel setting on the 650. I'm going to find out for sure though.
I too got some information from Marty Sampson. He has an excellent video on the VR1 650


This is a Print Screen from this video @6:50

2105556


The VR1 650 has the fuel type set for 91 NON-ETHANOL
 
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Discussion Starter #50 (Edited)
Would have been nice for them to touch on that and talk about fuel mapping for this new engine. Nice recon work!
 

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That doesn't prove much. How do you even know this is the final production gauge programming? It is a pre-production demo they are using in that video, obviously used for a while by the dirt on the right side buttons.
They are using use the same display on the 850's too so it could have not been hidden yet in this software version for the 650.
1fastpolaris got to ask Marty directly, in person. I would hope he knows what they intended, he cut the development checks that make all this happen.
 

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Discussion Starter #53
SteveM I was checking out your website, pretty awesome! I can honestly say I wish I would have taken more pictures over the years and or had the ones from the smart phones developed. Ok now we can get back on topic of the new 650's performance expectations.
 

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Where should I start...

I haven't seen anything from Polaris that said the Patriot 650 will make MAXIMUM power on 87 octane. I would be shocked if it did NOT have 2 fuel types it could be set to run on. Now, they definitely said it would run 87 octane, and like the 850 Patriot, they now have a few more sensors that can help do that WELL, and while protecting the engine. It is of no great complication to the engine itself, to have 2 different fuel maps, for different fuel types. We've been doing that for some time.


Optimized for 87 octane fuel and up to 10% ethanol with the ability to run premium. Oil consumption is reduced by 10%*

Optimized means it will get all the power out of 87 octane 10% ethanol fuel, that can be had. It does not mean that it can't get more from premium fuel.

The processing power of the ECU has gone up quite a bit, and it will be able to use the new inputs it is getting, to compute much better fuel delivery, exhaust valve position and spark timing solutions. They now have fuel pressure and fuel temperature sensors, which can allow the programming to do a fine line tune, because it doesn't have to ASSUME that the fuel pressure will be 60 psi +- 5psi. The ECU will know what the fuel pressure & temp. is, and adjust the injector cycle to deliver the exact fuel load the engineers want it to have, under the current circumstances.

They've improved the cooling system, to the point where the coolant flow thru the motor is the same pattern, regardless of the position of the thermostat/bypass, because they are external to the engine. This will help eliminate hot spots especially around the exhaust ports and allow a tighter tune. It costs power and/or economy to use fuel, to try to keep the motor cool or avoid detonation. The hall effect TPS sensor will eliminate scratchiness and inconsistency in the throttle position input to the ECU.

The electronically controlled 3 stage E VES II, will eliminate to a great extent one of the built-in faults, that ALL the previous Polaris 600 Exhaust Valve motors had to live with. Somewhere in mid-range rpm, where a lot of riders would like to be running for good trail speed and fuel economy, the 2 position Exhaust valves, would be in Low port, and not letting the engine make power like it should, or in High port mode and wasting fuel and torque. This change alone will provide power gains and economy gains.

If you look at my signature, you can see that I put my money where my mouth is.

I look forward to strolling into Blink Bonnies in St. Germain, Wisconsin and let 1fastpolaris, keep my 650 SBA 146 warmed up, while I'm eating. Oh, and to save time, just get a Leinenkugels ready for me.
I hope you get that chance at Blinks. They closed due to Covid, didn't open when allowed Memorial Day weekend and still have not opened as of last night 8-1-2020,.
 

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I hope you get that chance at Blinks. They closed due to Covid, didn't open when allowed Memorial Day weekend and still have not opened as of last night 8-1-2020,.
Good to know, I'm looking to put together a crew to come up for the Haydays replacement swap and show Sept. 11-13th,2020 in Eagle River at the Derby Complex, and I'm sure some of my pals will want to have Prime Rib. Maybe we'll just swing by Arby's?
 

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Good to know, I'm looking to put together a crew to come up for the Haydays replacement swap and show Sept. 11-13th,2020 in Eagle River at the Derby Complex, and I'm sure some of my pals will want to have Prime Rib. Maybe we'll just swing by Arby's?
FYI, The Plantation has been closed since last February. Owners retired. It is in the process of being "reworked" and may be open by September. Mar Li's formerly Scoobies, is only doing outside seating as of this past weekend. All other places are open with social distancing . We just returned from St Germain yesterday.
 

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I too got some information from Marty Sampson. He has an excellent video on the VR1 650


This is a Print Screen from this video @6:50

View attachment 2105556

The VR1 650 has the fuel type set for 91 NON-ETHANOL
But he didn't actually say the fuel selection was a feature
 

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That doesn't prove much. How do you even know this is the final production gauge programming? It is a pre-production demo they are using in that video, obviously used for a while by the dirt on the right side buttons.
They are using use the same display on the 850's too so it could have not been hidden yet in this software version for the 650.
1fastpolaris got to ask Marty directly, in person. I would hope he knows what they intended, he cut the development checks that make all this happen.
They have been having 2 fuel type modes since the year 2000 even down to the 500s. Why would they go away with it. I think some of you guys want to be proven right so nad your overlooking the evidence. 2 fuel types for 20 years now on just about every sled. An actual 650 that says its in the 91 on ethanol mode. They would be stupid to put that on demo models and not the production models. It would be asking for angry customers. Also it would make more sense to have a one display that can also be upgraded for the matryx sleds that didnt come with it. Like the pidd. It would be a waste of money to need to buy a upgraded screen specific to engine size. Just make one that works for both.
 
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