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ECU's ran on the dyno's showed EXACT same fuel curve and rates across the entire RPM range. That has been discussed by the companies that dyno'd both. Those same companies found the reeds were the difference in HP.
again, look at the epa website, there are two different calibrations between 2018 and 2019.

if you were to pull the reeds from 100 different 2018 sleds and then do the same for 100 different 2019 sleds, the statistical variation of petal thickness would be zero. if dyno tuners are seeing a difference with reed petal thickness, it is simply by chance. and if you test enough, it would even out.
 

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This is why I would never buy first model year of a new engine or chassis design. Usually the last year is best. Fully refined, no bugs or issues.

Yeah it's nice to have the latest and greatest but it comes with a cost usually.
 

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again, look at the epa website, there are two different calibrations between 2018 and 2019.

if you were to pull the reeds from 100 different 2018 sleds and then do the same for 100 different 2019 sleds, the statistical variation of petal thickness would be zero. if dyno tuners are seeing a difference with reed petal thickness, it is simply by chance. and if you test enough, it would even out.
So you are saying 15 thousands and 18 thousands is not a statistical difference ? WOW !! I think most would find 20% quite a difference.

It doesn't matter what the EPA sheet says. The performance companies tested them. They showed the same fuel curve and delivery rate. Further more when I talked with Ryan at Cat he confirmed all of this. Give him a call he is in charge of EFI calibration and tuning.
 

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So you are saying 15 thousands and 18 thousands is not a statistical difference ? WOW !! I think most would find 20% quite a difference.

It doesn't matter what the EPA sheet says. The performance companies tested them. They showed the same fuel curve and delivery rate. Further more when I talked with Ryan at Cat he confirmed all of this. Give him a call he is in charge of EFI calibration and tuning.
I, too, know Ryan. He told me a few areas where there was some "left on the table". REEDS. As we all know, all the makers could tune an engine for a lot more HP if it wasn't for warranty, EPA, etc. I also asked about a 2019 flash versus a 2018 and there was nothing there.

I now have VForce in my 2018, along with a minor head mod.
 

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If it were available, I'd still buy a 121. :) Thus, I can't see myself choking down a 137. This is purely my preference... I am not trying to be disrespectful to those who like and purchase the longer tracked machines. Obviously I'm a minority in this respect, since Cat is no longer offering short trackers.

From what I've read, the 2020 engine package sounds fantastic. I'm just whining because I'm sick about the fact that I bought a new sled based on a TON of research yet I had no clue Cat was going to abandon the ctec2. I think this new data tells me:
(1) Cat must see the 2018-2019 ctec2 as a warranty risk and is unable to reasonably manage risk
(2) While I think (1) is most likely, it is also possible that they are trying to up HP. However, if this was the primary driver, I think we'd see more changes than just cylinders and pistons
(3) The after market companies will likely abandon the ctec2 and move on to the new 2020 engine. This leaves us poor slobs with the 2018/19 sleds in a not-so-good situation.

Alrighty, I think I've whined enough. I'll stop now. I should take a step back and try to find the silver lining in all of this.
Could be worse.... Could be the guys with last years 850 Patriot. Nobody will buy a 2018 of theirs for any value
 

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So you are saying 15 thousands and 18 thousands is not a statistical difference ? WOW !! I think most would find 20% quite a difference.

It doesn't matter what the EPA sheet says. The performance companies tested them. They showed the same fuel curve and delivery rate. Further more when I talked with Ryan at Cat he confirmed all of this. Give him a call he is in charge of EFI calibration and tuning.
Reread my post, I'm not saying 15 thousands and 18 thousands is not statistically different. I'm saying if you averaged a hundred sleds from both years, there would be no statistical difference between the two populations. both of the measurements you identify meet the drawing requirements. again, nothing changed with the reeds between the years besides manufacturing variation at the supplier. if your '18 had ones you claim performed bad and your '19 had ones that performed good, well then that was just dumb luck.

also, there are multiple people named ryan that work at cat, but I have a feeling i know which one you are talking about and he doesn't work in calibration and tuning. i'm not saying he doesn't know what he's talking about, but get a story right if you are going to tell it. and if the fuel calibration was exactly the same from '18 to '19 as you say it is, it doesn't make economical/business sense to go through the effort to resubmit under new terms to the epa for exactly the same calibration you already have certified. it does take time, effort, and MONEY every time you submit.
 

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Reread my post, I'm not saying 15 thousands and 18 thousands is not statistically different. I'm saying if you averaged a hundred sleds from both years, there would be no statistical difference between the two populations. both of the measurements you identify meet the drawing requirements. again, nothing changed with the reeds between the years besides manufacturing variation at the supplier. if your '18 had ones you claim performed bad and your '19 had ones that performed good, well then that was just dumb luck.

also, there are multiple people named ryan that work at cat, but I have a feeling i know which one you are talking about and he doesn't work in calibration and tuning. i'm not saying he doesn't know what he's talking about, but get a story right if you are going to tell it. and if the fuel calibration was exactly the same from '18 to '19 as you say it is, it doesn't make economical/business sense to go through the effort to resubmit under new terms to the epa for exactly the same calibration you already have certified. it does take time, effort, and MONEY every time you submit.
Listen, I raced for Cat for 9 years, factory sponsored, so I have more contacts at Cat than you can imagine. Ryan I was referring to is Ryan Hayes, head of EPA compliance and calibration, or at least he was, as he got let go Monday.

You are so in left field on this I won’t waste anymore band width trying to help you understand it.
 

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Yup - Same Ryan. Didn’t hear that news about Monday. Ugggg. His and his family’s roots run very deep in snowmobiling and racing. Sorry to hear.
 

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Listen, I raced for Cat for 9 years, factory sponsored, so I have more contacts at Cat than you can imagine. Ryan I was referring to is Ryan Hayes, head of EPA compliance and calibration, or at least he was, as he got let go Monday.

You are so in left field on this I won’t waste anymore band width trying to help you understand it.
Congratulations on racing for cat. But again, you incorrect. That was Ryan's position a couple years ago, not at the time of this change. And Ryan got let go because he put in his two week notice.

I'm not in left field on this. I've giving you valid information, you just don't want to accept it.
 

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Totally agree... EPA will kill the combustion engine.. any guess when electric snowmobiles will be the only option?
There are no plans "on the table" to tighten emissions limits for snowmobiles. However, if liberals take control of Congress and the White House again, that will almost certainly change. Elections matter, and in more ways than most people realize.
 

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There are no plans "on the table" to tighten emissions limits for snowmobiles. However, if liberals take control of Congress and the White House again, that will almost certainly change. Elections matter, and in more ways than most people realize.
If the Mother F'n Liberals weren't so stupid, they could find many other ways to greatly reduce emissions.

Here's one. How about mandating that every single manufacturer of consumables FILL the product containers?? That would cut most transportation costs in half - everything is half full anymore.

Sorry - I know this doesn't belong here.
 

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My 2021 ZR8000RR, with only 115 miles and 10 hours on the engine, melted down the PTO piston and scrapped the cylinder. I'm not alone there are a lot of people. There were no signs as in hesitation or bogging. Just cruising at 50 and it just died and coasted to a stop. No codes no lights, nothing. Cat says it is due to a batch of faulty injectors, but only replaced the one on the melted down cylinder. Also I here tell that 6000-6900 RPM is running too lean. Needless to say I am not very happy about it. I'd be happy with the old version of the engine. Dealer had me up an running in less than 11 days. Have over 600 miles on it now with no issues. Still not happy about paying on a loan for a sled with a rebuilt engine.
 

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My 2021 ZR8000RR, with only 115 miles and 10 hours on the engine, melted down the PTO piston and scrapped the cylinder. I'm not alone there are a lot of people. There were no signs as in hesitation or bogging. Just cruising at 50 and it just died and coasted to a stop. No codes no lights, nothing. Cat says it is due to a batch of faulty injectors, but only replaced the one on the melted down cylinder. Also I here tell that 6000-6900 RPM is running too lean. Needless to say I am not very happy about it. I'd be happy with the old version of the engine. Dealer had me up an running in less than 11 days. Have over 600 miles on it now with no issues. Still not happy about paying on a loan for a sled with a rebuilt engine.
There is a lean area in the mapping.... 5800-6200 is the range most mention. If cruising at a steady throttle right in that lean zone, detonation starts.... Sucks for sure.
Best advice..... be aware of that and not ride at a constant throttle long term in that range. Or clutch around it. Or reflash.
No idea if Cat will come out with anything official about it or not. Or if they will do anything about it or not...... Also don't know why it seems to have appeared this season on the 21s and not last season on the 20s as there is supposedly nothing different in the 2 years .... same internal parts, same mapping, etc........ makes you wonder......or it does me at least.....
 
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Thats why the injectors have qr codes on them. Now they can chase down exactly which batch is causing the failures.
BTW mapping did change this year.
 

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I do know the Engineer who calibrated the previous engines left Cat and someone new did the mapping on the 21's.... Not saying that's it, but it does seem suspicious.
 

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There is a lean area in the mapping.... 5800-6200 is the range most mention. If cruising at a steady throttle right in that lean zone, detonation starts.... Sucks for sure.
Best advise..... be aware of that and not ride at a constant throttle long term in that range. Or clutch around it. Or reflash.
No idea if Cat will come out with anything official about it or not. Or if they will do anything about it or not...... Also don't know why it seems to have appeared this season on the 21s and not last season on the 20s as there is supposedly nothing different in the 2 years .... same internal parts, same mapping, etc........ makes you wonder......or it does me at least.....
The 20 sleds do the same thing. Stock clutching makes the 21 cruise differently. Specs on paper are identical in clutching and gearing. It appears that the primary shimming makes a big difference.
The 20 is working harder at lower rpms. You can really feel and hear the difference when hammering in and out of the throttle hard. It is already working the motor through the lean spot.
I'm not sure why, but riders must cruise right around the speed where the rpms are lean on the 21 sleds.
 

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Thats why the injectors have qr codes on them. Now they can chase down exactly which batch is causing the failures.
BTW mapping did change this year.
I do know the Engineer who calibrated the previous engines left Cat and someone new did the mapping on the 21's.... Not saying that's it, but it does seem suspicious.
What's interesting is information I have heard is that there is no changes in the map between 20 and 21......


The 20 sleds do the same thing. Stock clutching makes the 21 cruise differently. Specs on paper are identical in clutching and gearing. It appears that the primary shimming makes a big difference.
The 20 is working harder at lower rpms. You can really feel and hear the difference when hammering in and out of the throttle hard. It is already working the motor through the lean spot.
I'm not sure why, but riders must cruise right around the speed where the rpms are lean on the 21 sleds.
This makes sense as we all know the shimming is different on the 20 vs 21......
 
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