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Discussion Starter #1
Need help trouble shooting my 04’ vertical edge 600 clutching,
to start this off i will mention i swapped the 144” to a 151” and then went from the stock .58 weights to .60 and went to the next heaviest spring (black) in the primary. Purchased a new team secondary with a stock (red) spring in it.
On hard pack it absolutely launches, but falls off around 60-70mph. I am estimating speed due to not having a speedometer anymore :(.
I dont do much trail riding so that is not really my issue, the problem arises when in the steep and deep, the sled will hit 8100 rpm no problem and hold it, but does not get up and go as it used too with the 144.
My bone stock 03’ rmk 600 with the 144 will out climb it and on side by side runs up the hill, pulls away from the edge after 50-70’.
Could it be the secondary not upshifting causing the lack of track speed?
 

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Discussion Starter #2
Okay so symbols dont work!
So 2004 vertical edge 600, 144 inch track swapped to 151 inch, stock 2003 rmk with a 144 inch track pulls away after 50-70 feet on steep and deep climbs
 

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Did polaris offer a 04 151 vertical edge? if so you'd need to clutch the sled so it will pull a larger load which of course would be slower.
 

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and then went from the stock .58 weights to .60 and went to the next heaviest spring (black) in the primary. Purchased a new team secondary with a stock (red) spring in it
I suspect the secondary / helix may be the key here - What helix is in the team?
I'd try swapping secondaries between the sleds to see how things changes - or swap the old secondary back on?

Also, gearing down a little more can help too I think..? (less belt heat etc unde load)
 

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Discussion Starter #5
The angles on this secondary says 56-42-36 ER.
Now i would swap back to the old one but it must have gotten thrown out because i cant find it anywhere, and i cant swap to my other sleds clutch due to it being the button style, and they use a different jack shaft.
I wish i would have kept all my old parts so i could swap things back one by one. I know the old weights were completely wrecked but the spring would be nice to swap back, along with the secondary itself. Classic case of doing to much all at once.
But i wouldnt have thought that putting on a new secondary would have any adverse effects.......
Would it be worth trying a weaker spring in the secondary? Or am i better off buying the original spring and weights for the primary?
And honestly, with only going from a 144 to a 151 do you think its enough of a difference to have even touched my clutching? Considering i was able to still hit snd hold 8100-8200 rpm.
 

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Discussion Starter #6
Update- i found my old secondary, no spring and no helix, which leads me to believe i re used them in my new secondary, so nothing will have changed there. I also found the original primary spring which is black/red, and the spring i changed to is black/green.
Not sure why but according to my online parts finder it shows the primary spring as dark blue/white?
https://partsfinder.onlinemicrofiche.com/ridenow/showmodel.asp?Type=13&make=polarissnow&a=592&b=12&c=0&d=-CLUTCH---DRIVE
 

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Discussion Starter #7
Ive spent the last few hours looking up springs and their rates, and from what ive found, the black and red spring that was originally in my primary must have been a slp 120-320 because i cant find any other black/red spring. The previous owner must have put it in. Anyways according to m0t0xk1d, in another post on here, he says its is actually more like a 120-336 by measurement. If that is the case then when i swapped to the polaris black/green 120-340 i wouldnt have gained/lost/changed much at all, but that also means when i changed the weights to .60 from .58, that is really the only difference made.......
And from what I understood from madcows clutching 101 post, the heavier weights should have brought my engagement and wot rpms down, but they havent changed. Was always 8200 with the 144 and was still 8200 after i put the 151 on, and still even after changing the weights??!!!
 

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and i cant swap to my other sleds clutch due to it being the button style, and they use a different jack shaft.
should be the same keyed jackshaft on both the 03 you refer to and the 04..? :dunno:

clutching takes some time to get your head around, I've been at it for 20 year and still confused , lol!

Its so many variables working together, and when you change several at once , just expect som unexpected results.
The primary is basically qa rpm sensing unit while the secondary is a torque sensing unit. When in balance these 2 will work nicely together, when not they wil fight each other , belt heat and wear will increase etc.
You swapped in heavier weights - will load the motor harder.
You put in a new pri spring, ~ the same as before on paper but all springs vary to some extent in real life. Also different ways to measure from polaris to other brands.
New track - more weight , more traction. More load fed back to the secondary.

Also, with the new secondary, did you check the basics as clutch c-c distance, offset and belt deflection?
 

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Ive spent the last few hours looking up springs and their rates, and from what ive found, the black and red spring that was originally in my primary must have been a slp 120-320 because i cant find any other black/red spring. The previous owner must have put it in. Anyways according to m0t0xk1d, in another post on here, he says its is actually more like a 120-336 by measurement. If that is the case then when i swapped to the polaris black/green 120-340 i wouldnt have gained/lost/changed much at all, but that also means when i changed the weights to .60 from .58, that is really the only difference made.......
And from what I understood from madcows clutching 101 post, the heavier weights should have brought my engagement and wot rpms down, but they havent changed. Was always 8200 with the 144 and was still 8200 after i put the 151 on, and still even after changing the weights??!!!
Have you run the sled wo far enough to let the clutch's fully shift out to determine its holding 8k rpm and not falling off after 1000' or so?
 

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what lug height track does the 151 have? what was the 144 track? you are going to have to get the gearing right first. 8200 rpm is way to high for a 600 ves it should turn 7900-8000 max. find a 120/310 drive spring with 10-60 weights.the stock helix is just plain wrong for deep snow. 42-38 f helix and a blk./grn. driven with three delrin washes or a roller bearing shim. get your rpm's right with adding or subtracting weight. you may have to grind them to find the right comb.?
 

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Discussion Starter #11
Just checked the parts finder and it lists both sleds using the same jackshaft, which is good, but years ago i recall overheating my secondary and it was stuck in low gear. I got a ride home and pulled the button style clutch and i am almost certain it wouldnt fit........ but part numbers dont lie! After i got the sled home i ordered up some shims and a new secondary and aligned everything when putting it all back together. That was atleast 8 years ago now, maybe 10!
Just last week i checked deflection and alignment but did not check center of shaft to center of shaft...
i have not had a chance to really wind it out to see if it falls off or climbs rpm at full shiftout or not, i am literally sitting here antsy to go check, just cant think of a big enough area to try it, other than down a back road. Luckily we just got 8” fresh snow and the roads havent been plowed yet so good timing!
Both the old and new tracks are 2 inch paddles, i believe 2.86 pitch.
Northstar- From my understanding the vertical edge was the mountain edition rmk and came geared down and had a different helix for the deeper snow? Thats not saying the factory setup should work with the longer track but it definitely worked very very well for years with the 144!
As far as the rpm i am going to go for a ride and double check again.
Thank you all for your input and ideas, i will go do some testing and let you all know!
 

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Just checked the parts finder and it lists both sleds using the same jackshaft, which is good, but years ago i recall overheating my secondary and it was stuck in low gear. I got a ride home and pulled the button style clutch and i am almost certain it wouldnt fit........ but part numbers dont lie! After i got the sled home i ordered up some shims and a new secondary and aligned everything when putting it all back together. That was atleast 8 years ago now, maybe 10!
Just last week i checked deflection and alignment but did not check center of shaft to center of shaft...
i have not had a chance to really wind it out to see if it falls off or climbs rpm at full shiftout or not, i am literally sitting here antsy to go check, just cant think of a big enough area to try it, other than down a back road. Luckily we just got 8” fresh snow and the roads havent been plowed yet so good timing!
Both the old and new tracks are 2 inch paddles, i believe 2.86 pitch.
Northstar- From my understanding the vertical edge was the mountain edition rmk and came geared down and had a different helix for the deeper snow? Thats not saying the factory setup should work with the longer track but it definitely worked very very well for years with the 144!
As far as the rpm i am going to go for a ride and double check again.
Thank you all for your input and ideas, i will go do some testing and let you all know!
clutching is what we do. i can tell you right now if you thought the 144 was fine? there's a lot more to be had. we lately have applied our thinking on gearing and clutching on these older sleds. night and day difference was the out come. when you get a 2003 ves 800 to absolutely wax a 2011 pro-r 800 everywhere it was a eye opener for sure.
 

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Installing a team tied driven, and carbon tech mid tension reeds with 23/40 gears on my 05 600 made a huge difference against any of the newest 600 sleds. I haven't been beaten by any of the bone stock 600 brands.
 
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