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Hi, help a newb with his 600 xc clutching!

10K views 128 replies 14 participants last post by  Hussler 
#1 ·
I'm as green as they get with snowmobiles.

I'm a dedicated jeep fanatic/idiot and am looking into finally making something go FAST. :grinning:

I've been creepin' on your forum here for a while and understand the basic functions of the clutches, but am lost on deciding what to get for my rig.

I understand the primary spring changes when the primary clutch engages, but why would you want to do that? The thing spins the track off the line as it is.

Also curious about the weights. Why get heavier weights when you can just get a stiffer spring?

I think I understand the helix, its like the pattern for how the secondary climbs the belt? Example: a helix with a low angle would climb slower?

More or less I want to figure out what I should get ON MY OWN (but I wouldn't mind excessive flaming if you just tell me what to get :w00t:)


P.s. Here's the bitch, 01 polaris xc sp EDGE 600, with a 40 tooth driven gear

 
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#2 ·
Check out tech tips for xc 600's on the top of the xc forum you can't miss it. The wieghts will change your RPM's and your primary spring changes your engaugement and your shifting and your secondary deals with your upshifting and downshifting and your helix acts like a shifter like shifting from 1st to 2nd gear ect... agghhh!!! it gets complicaded if you never played with them before. Stick around and ask questions nomatter how dumb you think the question is, there some clever people on here that will help you out and someone will be able to explain the clutching deal better than me. good luck!!
 
#3 ·
The wieghts will change your RPM's

and your primary spring changes your engaugement and your shifting

and your secondary deals with your upshifting and downshifting

and your helix acts like a shifter like shifting from 1st to 2nd gear

Stick around and ask questions nomatter how dumb you think the question is, there some clever people on here that will help you out and someone will be able to explain the clutching deal better than me. good luck!!
Sorry, had to space it out :grinning: Ah, so the primary spring changes with the powerband curve as well. Thought only the secondary did that

So is there literally like a first and second gear? It doesnt porgressivly get higher like a regular CVT transmission? weird.
 
#4 ·
From what I've been reading, people like the almond blue primary, 10-60 weights, R12 helix and silver secondary spring. I have a 40 tooth lower gear

Does this sound correct for a trail rider/ ditchbanger? I would still like to go 90mph as well :D
 
#10 · (Edited)
Wow that is the first time i ever seen a 2001 Snow checked regal blue XCSP600 other than my own! Very nice sled.

I was 200 pounds running almond-blue primary spring, 60 gram polaris weights, silver blue secondary spring, with a 52-38 helix (it was a little to much helix sometimes i had a lighter rider to race for me) if your heavy ide use a 50-36 helix, and if your only trail driving a 48-36.
And put in a 40 tooth lower gear, and setup the skid. She will boogey!

I also jet 420 at about -4, But i dont let it get hot and i feather the throttle when moving between the finish line and starting line
 

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#65 ·
I was 200 pounds running almond-blue primary spring, 60 gram polaris weights, silver blue secondary spring, with a 52-38 helix (it was a little to much helix sometimes i had a lighter rider to race for me) if your heavy ide use a 50-36 helix, and if your only trail driving a 48-36.
Might want to run an epi purple secondary spring with all that instead of the epi orange. 2nd hole. Guys in the 150 lb range flew with that setup as long as you were riding groomed trails or packed snow conditions.
you could even try an R-11, which is a 45/36, doesn't load the engine quite so hard, backshifts quicker and better in the soft stuff.
epi maroon primary spring with 10-63 weights. epi orange secondary spring. i believe r12 secondary helix with the spring in the center hole
I've got a 48-36 with three steps on it. The steeper the angle the harder it is for the engine to spin it, but makes the clutch work harder, and depending on the load and spring tension, can make the machine move/start/respond better or faster to input. But, if the ramp is too steep, the engine will bog down from too much of a load, and make it slower. Steep ramps are better for sleds with a good bite and smooth, hard trails, or for drag racing, but shallower angles tend to backshift better and allow the engine not to work so hard, like ditching or trail riding.


You now have something to compare it with, the stock helix, which it would appear is an R-11, (45-36), and the new one. Try the 48-36, see how it performs differently for you, it may be enough, not enough or too much.

Adding more tension to the helix spring will usually slow down the opening movement of the secondary (shift-out), and quicken backshift. How do the RPM's appear under various conditions and loads, do you need heavier or lighter weights, all these factors come into play, too, and age of the belt, springs, bushings, etc. Quite a lot to it, really.
If you like the pull of the 48-36 helix you are real close to the combo. The next step would be to put 61.5 weights (62's ground down on the heel) and put the secondary spring in the 3rd hole, this combo will balance out the rpms and give you more belt squeeze on both clutches.
I run 61.5's hillclimbing, trail riding and more, if you check my record, besides grass racing which I run 5.8's with an ISR legal stock '00 600xc/sp gen II, you will see that my recommendations for trail riding will give you decent results.
You dont always raise engagement for the sake of raising engagement from a dead stop you may go to a stiffer spring (from a 150-300 to a 165- 300 for ex.) to increase throttle response on low end while already moving. response is the goal, a higher engagement is a side effect weather it is desired or not.
When I look at your setup compared to the 600s I have setup the driven seems a little aggressive, the 48-36 helix which I assume is a full progressive is going to be very aggresive in the midrange and the purple spring is pretty soft, If I remember right that spring upshifts quickerthan a silver blue poo spring due to being softer torsionally. I know the rating is a 50-75 which is close to a silver blue but it didnt seem to act that way, compare the wire dia Its smaller if its the spring I am thinking of
I would try a helix that does not carry the angle that long, I think you are in the ballpark on the angles it just carries the angle to far. An r8 or r12 would be a step in the right direction. Then I would try a stiffer spring like a silver blue or epi orange but the pruple might work with less helix when it comes to secondary springs they dont always act the way you think they will, trail and error.
My 600 turns up with 60 gram weights and a 52-38X helix.

You need that almond blue primary spring ide say.
Put the stock r-8 back in without any other changes.No ratrod the almond blue isn't going to fix this.If going from hole 1 to 5 made no change I think the helix is cocking and not shifting properly.
Try a almond or team green 140-330 or team red 140-320.
Steve
Why did you buy a primary spring with LESS finish force than the stock 120-310 spring you have already????????It will give LESS peak rpm!!!!!!The 145 will raise engagement and 300 finish LOWER peak rpm.Why the heck are you trying that spring????

^This part still really confuses me compared to what steve said before about ratrods suggestion with the almond blue spring


You should be looking for a primary spring with the same start force and about 20-30lbs more finishing force,like the springs I mentioned.
Higher starting rate will give you about 300 rpm higher engagement and lower finish will give more belt grip which will drag down rpms. If you like the helix and secondary set up, go back to the 58's

Sorry about the huge quote-fest. just summing up everybodys suggestion more or less, trying to make sense of it all
 
#14 ·
If it is still a little boggy, you could even try an R-11, which is a 45/36, doesn't load the engine quite so hard, backshifts quicker and better in the soft stuff. Experiment, try this or that, you will learn a lot in the process, change one thing at a time and record your results, eventually will have the best configuration for what your riding style demands.
 
#25 ·
Maybe not much, maybe a lot... It will depend on how short or long the duration of the beginning angle is relative to the ending angle is, and what kind of curvature is on the ramp. Some of the short steeper angled ramps change quickly, some are "full progressive" which means that the ramp is gradually changing from one to the other the whole length, or at least most of it. Some change a third of the way down the ramp, others half-way. Some helix's actually have steps on them, too. I've got a 48-36 with three steps on it. The steeper the angle the harder it is for the engine to spin it, but makes the clutch work harder, and depending on the load and spring tension, can make the machine move/start/respond better or faster to input. But, if the ramp is too steep, the engine will bog down from too much of a load, and make it slower. Steep ramps are better for sleds with a good bite and smooth, hard trails, or for drag racing, but shallower angles tend to backshift better and allow the engine not to work so hard, like ditching or trail riding.

The key is to find the helix which will give you the right combination, which can be tricky if your snow and terrain changes a lot. That will be up for you to determine. After reading about several options, the right helix for one guy is not necessarily the one you find works the best. It is nice to have a couple identical clutch set-ups, but have different helix's in each one, makes it easy to change out right on the trail, lake, ditch, waterhole, road or wherever you ride. You would need to devote some specific time and conditions that you would normally encounter to do this. That's what makes the fast guys faster. It also helps to be running against a known sled, as a "pace" model, to see how it performs against it, it is often hard to get a seat-of the pants feel, one might feel faster, but in reality, it is slower. A measured track, or course, hill, timed event, all can be of assistance.

You now have something to compare it with, the stock helix, which it would appear is an R-11, (45-36), and the new one. Try the 48-36, see how it performs differently for you, it may be enough, not enough or too much. See where it changes, where the benefits of each are, then after you have swapped them back and forth a couple times, try different spring holes. Adding more tension to the helix spring will usually slow down the opening movement of the secondary (shift-out), and quicken backshift. How do the RPM's appear under various conditions and loads, do you need heavier or lighter weights, all these factors come into play, too, and age of the belt, springs, bushings, etc. Quite a lot to it, really.
 
#26 · (Edited)
I wrote this awhile ago might help a bit

Starting with the Secondary clutch you need to take the bolt out that holds it on the shaft (hopefully the clutch isnt rusted on the shaft), Check:

That the shaft isnt rusty

That the key and keyways arent excesivly worn.

Next take the clutch to your work bench, keep downpressure on the helix and take out the snap ring, Make sure:

The helix comes off the shaft (if its hard i like to hold the helix down and sandpaper the shaft a bit)

The shaft isnt rusty,

The helix where it touches the button isnt grooved

The spring isnt broke (realy should be replaced yearly)

The Helix key and Keyway isnt excesivly worn

The buttons arent worn out (they should be replaced anyway { screw a small screw into them and pull them out with vicegrips})

Next pull the sheeves apart and check that the huge washer(s) between the two sheeves isnt disintigraded.

Put everything back in order (i clean everything with hot water and dish detergent and dry very well)( use a LITTLE chassis greese rubbed on the clutch shaft and the jackshaft to keep things moving) ,

Be for you put the snap ring on you have to preload the helix into the clutch. What i do is mark out where the buttons are on the outside of the clutch, then push the helix with the key in the keyway into the clutch a buitt (not touching the buttons) Then i turn the sheaves opposite each other untill the helix reaches a quarter turn (hard to explain!), Then push the helix all the way down (i use a board under my knee) and install a spacer and the snap wring.



Primary clutch:

You need a clutchpuller to sensibly work on it, You remove the jambolt from the clutch, install the clutch puller with lots of chassis greese and tighten decently tight, then hammer it like a nail going in the crank and tighten again and hammer again until it pops off.

Then when taking off the 12 cover bolts ALWAYS keep downforce on the cover ( I use my knee) And never take off the downforce till they are all 100% off the clutch.

Remove the cover and spring, make sure:

The Spyder moves on the shaft smoothly

The usualy silver rollers that the cam arms (AKA weights) rub on should NOT have flat spots and should roll like a bearing sorta...
Next open the sheeves as far as possible and grab a cam arm and see if:
it has any movement on the pins. (Any movement or play means the bushings are garbage.)
If the Cam Arms have groove worn in them where they touch the rollers.


Again clean with hot water and dish liquid. Or fire it in the dishwasher for a very nice and easy clean...

I never use any lubricants on my primary clutch, except a tiny bit of white synthetic greese on the cover bolts.

When reasembling, again keep downforce on the cover untill all bolts are back in place. (Push down on the face and pull up on the moveable sheave.)


Guys please add to this i know i missed alot of stuff
 
#27 ·
THANKS TO ALL WITH THE ADVICE!!! I put in the 48/36 helix and a purple epi secondary in the first hole.

SHE ABSOLUTELY HAULS, ITS NOT EVEN FUNNY.

I still plan to put in the 10-60 weights, just waiting on the primary clutch removal tool. I may end up ordering a red epi primary spring, depends how the engagement turns out with the 10-60's. (look at me, talking like a pro! thanks again all!)

She sits almost peeerrrrfeeccttt on the rpm, just about 8k.

What do you guys think will happen with the 10-60's? I'm guessing my engagement will lower a little but I should have a little better power transfer.
 
#29 ·
I will probably fiddle with it a bit more, but i am totally loving the raw power right now, she does backshift a tad bit slow. Will probably end up changing it. Its nice how super easy it has become for me to take off and adjust the secondary.

My thread should should become a sticky for other rookies like me, I have learned so much. :thumbsup:
 
#31 ·
If you like the pull of the 48-36 helix you are real close to the combo. The next step would be to put 61.5 weights (62's ground down on the heel) and put the secondary spring in the 3rd hole, this combo will balance out the rpms and give you more belt squeeze on both clutches.

You didn't mention what jetting? should be 410's down to zero f @ 2000'

Where are you located?
 
#33 ·
You go buy the piston wash and Plug wash to determine weather to jet up or down dont go buy the internet. Checking jetting regularly can save your engine from leaking intakes and stuff too.

You want a 150-310 secondary spring (polaris Almond blue).

If your not drag racing competitively ide stick with 60gram weights.
 
#40 ·
Rat Rods info on al/blue polaris spring is a primary spring not a secondary spring.
2nd, I run 61.5's hillclimbing, trail riding and more, if you check my record, besides grass racing which I run 5.8's with an ISR legal stock '00 600xc/sp gen II, you will see that my recommendations for trail riding will give you decent results. I prefer not to get in discussions on the forums as to which setup is better or not since it is only 1/4th of the overall package and each individual has different expectations of what is good for his deal.
PM me if you need any addtional help
Barry
 
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