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pace31
There is so much out there about combining snow passes with sled registration to increase funds and now with the Eastern clubs threatening not to groom until this happens its getting ridicules. If the province actually ever moves forward with combining the two it is only one part of the equation. It’s not going to mean a windfall for the clubs or Snoman.

There is still an issue that needs to be addressed, there are too many clubs out there all trying to stay a float with limited resources. If they would amalgamate in lager groups there volunteer resources would expand there equipment cost would be reduced significantly and they could probably afford to pay someone to operate (or a least offer a stipend) and maintain the equipment. It crazy that all theses small clubs are out there fundraising to keep there head above water.

Secondly, Snoman has to look for other revenue streams. It’s a good thing this company who produces the map is holding back because of what is happening with the Eastern clubs. It’s crazy that Snoman allows a 3rd party to approach their member companies for advertising to pay for the production of the map. There is obviously money to be made from producing it so why should that not go back into Snomans packet. It’s a lot easier to sell and advertising package when you can offer up a several areas like the map, web advertising and what ever other venues Snoman may have. Along this line there is no reason why Snoman does not produce a snowmobile show – they could forget about the Convention Center and do it at MacDon for far far cheaper. Having said all this I would expect it difficult to get any of this done with only two staff. The Executive have to loosen control a bit and start recruiting sledders who may have the skills to start some of this there any many people that snowmobile and are members of Snoman that have a lot of experience in the above - It’s not right that only clubs are represented on the executive there should be members on the executive that are just average sledders as well.

Lastly, the province has to recognize what a resource they have with Snoman and what is done by all the clubs. They spend so much money on tourism every year but hardly promote snowmobiling. How many years have there been crummy snow conditions in ND,SD, MN and Sask? If you look at what the province produces for printed materials or has on there website is ridicules. Ontario tourism produces a whole magazine and advertises on TV show. It’s hard enough to find out information as a Manitoban about an area you have not been before in the province. More sledders coming to Manitoba from other places means more money for Snoman, clubs, communities and province.

I am not saying these are the only issues - but just combining the snopasses is not the only answer.
wildoat
In all honestly I would love to see Snoman gone. Things used to be much simpler when there was no groomed trail system, ergo less sleds, no politics, no dickheads pissing people off etc. the more groomed trails, the more sleds, the more regulation. I really hope the price of gas gets rid of a lot of the pikers. You NEED to ride a groomed trail, hit the shoulder of the road. It's plenty smooth.

Oh and to comment on the bigger clubs quote, good luck with that. The biggest issue I have seen in the clubs I have been involved with are the cliquey little groups and the infighting to the point nothing gets done. If anything you need to make the groups smaller.
fcat600
QUOTE(wildoat @ Jun 26 2008, 02:44 PM) *
In all honestly I would love to see Snoman gone. Things used to be much simpler when there was no groomed trail system, ergo less sleds, no politics, no dickheads pissing people off etc. the more groomed trails, the more sleds, the more regulation. I really hope the price of gas gets rid of a lot of the pikers. You NEED to ride a groomed trail, hit the shoulder of the road. It's plenty smooth.

Oh and to comment on the bigger clubs quote, good luck with that. The biggest issue I have seen in the clubs I have been involved with are the cliquey little groups and the infighting to the point nothing gets done. If anything you need to make the groups smaller.

i agree
YamaDoo07
QUOTE(wildoat @ Jun 26 2008, 02:44 PM) *
In all honestly I would love to see Snoman gone. Things used to be much simpler when there was no groomed trail system, ergo less sleds, no politics, no dickheads pissing people off etc. the more groomed trails, the more sleds, the more regulation. I really hope the price of gas gets rid of a lot of the pikers. You NEED to ride a groomed trail, hit the shoulder of the road. It's plenty smooth.

Oh and to comment on the bigger clubs quote, good luck with that. The biggest issue I have seen in the clubs I have been involved with are the cliquey little groups and the infighting to the point nothing gets done. If anything you need to make the groups smaller.


That's very narrow minded. Alot of communities welcome the sledding traffic during the winter months, and some count on it!!. Grooming doesn't have to stop...the eastern region makes enough funds to groom the ditches and power lines. There are some areas of the province that doesn't just groom ditches and they face other concerns that cost a few $$$. When the "baby needs his bottle" scenario stops then there will be good groomed trails. Every club has it's different hardships. "Forcing" the government's hand is not the way. I don't have the answers and you can't please everyone...I could care less at his point if they ever groom again...... IF they ever go back to the old way, I will make sure I buy a pass so the North and West ares get my portion of the funding.
chevzr2
QUOTE(wildoat @ Jun 26 2008, 02:44 PM) *
In all honestly I would love to see Snoman gone. Things used to be much simpler when there was no groomed trail system, ergo less sleds, no politics, no dickheads pissing people off etc. the more groomed trails, the more sleds, the more regulation. I really hope the price of gas gets rid of a lot of the pikers. You NEED to ride a groomed trail, hit the shoulder of the road. It's plenty smooth.

Oh and to comment on the bigger clubs quote, good luck with that. The biggest issue I have seen in the clubs I have been involved with are the cliquey little groups and the infighting to the point nothing gets done. If anything you need to make the groups smaller.



i second that!!!
Blk88GT
QUOTE
IF they ever go back to the old way, I will make sure I buy a pass so the North and West ares get my portion of the funding.


I agree.
catmanyamadooeater
QUOTE(wildoat @ Jun 26 2008, 02:44 PM) *
In all honestly I would love to see Snoman gone. Things used to be much simpler when there was no groomed trail system, ergo less sleds, no politics, no dickheads pissing people off etc. the more groomed trails, the more sleds, the more regulation. I really hope the price of gas gets rid of a lot of the pikers. You NEED to ride a groomed trail, hit the shoulder of the road. It's plenty smooth.

Oh and to comment on the bigger clubs quote, good luck with that. The biggest issue I have seen in the clubs I have been involved with are the cliquey little groups and the infighting to the point nothing gets done. If anything you need to make the groups smaller.


To say that you would like to see snoman gone is like saying you would like to see autopac gone! Yes a seperate group other then snoman (example private insurance) may work out for a while but then how would all sledders/ clubs have a voice and or input into what goes on? Yes I agree that things could be better with snoman but if you need input into an issue you need to bring this to snomans attention via your regional rep listed on the snoman site. If you have any suggestions to make snoman a better organization then bring this suggestion to your regional meetings and have them discussed and placed onto the next snoman agenda for discussion. There is a structured system that is currently in place and is it the bests sytem? Maybe not but lets not be quick to knock our current system, lets make it better.

My question is what needs to be done to make snoman a better organization or an organization that sledders feel would be benificial for all not just regions, snomobile clubs, but ALL SNOMOBILE USERS!

I agree with wildoat on the bigger clubs and sharing equipment ect and we have been there done that and our area has split into 2 seprate clubs a number of years ago and I really belive that this was the best thing for the trails/ snowmobiling in this area. Before the split people where mad that work wasn't being done in their area or on a certain trail thet they rode or had interest in and there was bad feelings and like he stated small groups and no one getting along. At the time of the split there where hard feelings and over the years we have started to work together and the old feelings have started to go away with time and changes in club excutives ect.

How ever with the comment you wildoat make about the no politics or dickheads ect pissing you off, guess again. There will always be politics and or dick heads getting involved when you have different user groups with different intrests and or agendas, take a look and read the Duck Mountain Management Plan. This plan has been pushed by various eco @####$@$ groups and when the goverment tried to push it through the variuos user groups affected came out on force to say no to the plan. Now several years later the goverment is including representatives from these different user groups to help and develop a reasonable plan.

So in closing lets make snoman work for us with out being dickheads and pissing people off about things and with out bringing the politics into play!

Catman!

wildoat
QUOTE(catmanyamadooeater @ Jun 27 2008, 10:04 AM) *
To say that you would like to see snoman gone is like saying you would like to see autopac gone! Yes a seperate group other then snoman (example private insurance) may work out for a while but then how would all sledders/ clubs have a voice and or input into what goes on? Yes I agree that things could be better with snoman but if you need input into an issue you need to bring this to snomans attention via your regional rep listed on the snoman site. If you have any suggestions to make snoman a better organization then bring this suggestion to your regional meetings and have them discussed and placed onto the next snoman agenda for discussion. There is a structured system that is currently in place and is it the bests sytem? Maybe not but lets not be quick to knock our current system, lets make it better.

My question is what needs to be done to make snoman a better organization or an organization that sledders feel would be benificial for all not just regions, snomobile clubs, but ALL SNOMOBILE USERS!

I agree with wildoat on the bigger clubs and sharing equipment ect and we have been there done that and our area has split into 2 seprate clubs a number of years ago and I really belive that this was the best thing for the trails/ snowmobiling in this area. Before the split people where mad that work wasn't being done in their area or on a certain trail thet they rode or had interest in and there was bad feelings and like he stated small groups and no one getting along. At the time of the split there where hard feelings and over the years we have started to work together and the old feelings have started to go away with time and changes in club excutives ect.

How ever with the comment you wildoat make about the no politics or dickheads ect pissing you off, guess again. There will always be politics and or dick heads getting involved when you have different user groups with different intrests and or agendas, take a look and read the Duck Mountain Management Plan. This plan has been pushed by various eco @####$@$ groups and when the goverment tried to push it through the variuos user groups affected came out on force to say no to the plan. Now several years later the goverment is including representatives from these different user groups to help and develop a reasonable plan.

So in closing lets make snoman work for us with out being dickheads and pissing people off about things and with out bringing the politics into play!

Catman!


I could care less about the dickheads, etc. I'm talking about them pissing off landowners and non-snowmobilers, it makes a bad name for anyone on a sled.

Sure, the groomed trail system brings certain areas business, what did they have several years ago when Snoman didn't exist?

I am on the committee for the DMMP, so no need to read up, I agree. Snoman sent a letter to the clubs around the park, and that was hopefully not the end of their involvement.

I am being completely selfish in my statement, as before there were groomed trails, there weren't as many sledders. Many riders depend on the groomed trail system, and without it there may be less of the highway riders and hopefully less sleds and less attention. If anything, groomed trails made more sense back when the sleds were slower and had less travel.

And really, how many sleds need to travel over a groomed trail before it sucks? Sure if you can groom it every day it's great, but who has the dollars for that?

Really, Snoman needs way more funding to work properly, it is here and will probably stay, and I see your point about insurance, but without insurance would there be any grooming at all?

I ride the trails. I have club involvement. I have bought snowpasses every year, and at the same time have oft purchased Ontario's pass to ride the trails a couple times a year. What if they weren't groomed? I would ride where they are on crown land, ride on land I had permission, ditches etc just like I used to. And this is still often the case since the trails are so whooped the former is better and more fun.

Now, I may change my mind when I'm 70 and riding a couch.
toban
Wildoat - I especially like your 70 year old analogy. I'm almost there now and I too enjoyed the, days of riding in unknown areas, no signs, no grooming and getting lost on the North West Trail (Belair forest) when it was minus 32 degrees farenheit. I also remember the times when the trails weren't groomed, having to pull my machine out of two to three feet of snow, loading up a busted machine and changing a few pairs of bent skis.

Now, I can't even begin to think that I could huff and puff and pull my newer (2003) sled out snow that deep today.

Being retired, I and a couple of "cronies" have the time and a few extra bucks to travel longer distances, meet more people, learn about the demographics/people of other areas and what their lives are like - thanks to the groomed, signed and designated safe trails.

I do not want to see the disappearance of club groomed and signed trails anymore than I would like to give up my cell phone, gps and any other of the things that make my riding enjoyable and much more safe.

This winter, riding for a lot of people is going to be somewhat of a hardship, including myself. People will still be out there riding, but they more than likely won't be out riding as often. Maybe there is something good out of this as riders may enjoy their infrequent rides much more knowing that each ride is expensive and should be enjoyed to the fullest. Some will be slowing down and not cruising at 80mph (just like automobile drivers are learning to reduce their vehicle fuel consumption by slowing down) thereby increasing ride time on the trails.

The price of a trail pass which supports Snoman and organized trails pales in comparison to the increases in gasoline prices that we will experience this coming season. $1.319 is the line at which gasoline is $6.00 a gallon. It will now cost about $60.00 to fill your empty tank. A Manitoba pass is what - around ninety bucks? A tank and a half of fuel. An Ontario pass is $180.00 - three tanks of gas. Ten good trail rides will cost about $600.00 bucks not counting food and refreshments

Up until and including last year, I was out riding 2K plus miles a season. Others I know rode a lot more than that. It will be an interesting year.

For those of you who have ideas on how to restructure or contribute to club and Snoman operations, volunteer your ideas and take the time to go through the process to try and work your ideas through to the people who are empowered to make changes. They can't possibily think of all the solutions to the problems by themselves. I'm sure that most will welcome your suggestions and participation. For those of you who haven't bought a trail pass in the last few years, support your club this coming season. You won't end up in the poorhouse because you bought a trail pass. And lastly, for those of you who are young and strong enough to put in a good days work on the trails, swinging an axe limbing trees, brushing etc., give it a try. You may find that a good days work is good for the body as well as a sense of accomplishment and doing something for others. You will also meet some really great people (not good for meeting girls) - both young and old. Us older guys can't do it all and WE ARE getting tired out.

Above all, be a little more patient waiting for results and for things to take shape. Impatience makes for frustration, which makes for anger, which makes for irrational thinking, which makes for bad behaviour which makes for poor decision making.
wildoat
One idea. Maybe Snoman should be working the feds and the province to get some of the fuel tax that goes into our "3 tanks for a snopass" sleds. It all comes down to dollars and an injection like that might actually make the organization what it needs to be.
catmanyamadooeater
QUOTE(toban @ Jun 27 2008, 08:37 PM) *
Wildoat - I especially like your 70 year old analogy. I'm almost there now and I too enjoyed the, days of riding in unknown areas, no signs, no grooming and getting lost on the North West Trail (Belair forest) when it was minus 32 degrees farenheit. I also remember the times when the trails weren't groomed, having to pull my machine out of two to three feet of snow, loading up a busted machine and changing a few pairs of bent skis.

Now, I can't even begin to think that I could huff and puff and pull my newer (2003) sled out snow that deep today.

Being retired, I and a couple of "cronies" have the time and a few extra bucks to travel longer distances, meet more people, learn about the demographics/people of other areas and what their lives are like - thanks to the groomed, signed and designated safe trails.

I do not want to see the disappearance of club groomed and signed trails anymore than I would like to give up my cell phone, gps and any other of the things that make my riding enjoyable and much more safe.

This winter, riding for a lot of people is going to be somewhat of a hardship, including myself. People will still be out there riding, but they more than likely won't be out riding as often. Maybe there is something good out of this as riders may enjoy their infrequent rides much more knowing that each ride is expensive and should be enjoyed to the fullest. Some will be slowing down and not cruising at 80mph (just like automobile drivers are learning to reduce their vehicle fuel consumption by slowing down) thereby increasing ride time on the trails.

The price of a trail pass which supports Snoman and organized trails pales in comparison to the increases in gasoline prices that we will experience this coming season. $1.319 is the line at which gasoline is $6.00 a gallon. It will now cost about $60.00 to fill your empty tank. A Manitoba pass is what - around ninety bucks? A tank and a half of fuel. An Ontario pass is $180.00 - three tanks of gas. Ten good trail rides will cost about $600.00 bucks not counting food and refreshments

Up until and including last year, I was out riding 2K plus miles a season. Others I know rode a lot more than that. It will be an interesting year.

For those of you who have ideas on how to restructure or contribute to club and Snoman operations, volunteer your ideas and take the time to go through the process to try and work your ideas through to the people who are empowered to make changes. They can't possibily think of all the solutions to the problems by themselves. I'm sure that most will welcome your suggestions and participation. For those of you who haven't bought a trail pass in the last few years, support your club this coming season. You won't end up in the poorhouse because you bought a trail pass. And lastly, for those of you who are young and strong enough to put in a good days work on the trails, swinging an axe limbing trees, brushing etc., give it a try. You may find that a good days work is good for the body as well as a sense of accomplishment and doing something for others. You will also meet some really great people (not good for meeting girls) - both young and old. Us older guys can't do it all and WE ARE getting tired out.

Above all, be a little more patient waiting for results and for things to take shape. Impatience makes for frustration, which makes for anger, which makes for irrational thinking, which makes for bad behaviour which makes for poor decision making.


Toban buttrock.gif

Excellent post and many good points made! You have been a round and make many legitatmate points for younger sledders to ponder!
4MULA-DLX
QUOTE(wildoat @ Jun 26 2008, 02:44 PM) *
In all honestly I would love to see Snoman gone. Things used to be much simpler when there was no groomed trail system, ergo less sleds, no politics, no dickheads pissing people off etc. the more groomed trails, the more sleds, the more regulation. I really hope the price of gas gets rid of a lot of the pikers. You NEED to ride a groomed trail, hit the shoulder of the road. It's plenty smooth.

Oh and to comment on the bigger clubs quote, good luck with that. The biggest issue I have seen in the clubs I have been involved with are the cliquey little groups and the infighting to the point nothing gets done. If anything you need to make the groups smaller.


Well....Dickhead truly does come to mind when I read your post, but unfortunately for you it's not us trail riders who enjoy going out for the day and not busting the shit out of our sleds, it's for the narrow minded ditch banger who thinks that we should all crawl back into the 70's and pull out the open face helmets and ride anywhere we want and not worry about liability issues. If you don't want to buy a pass and ride the trails then don't, but don't knock a system which you don't support in any way shape or form that thousands of riders do. Snoman may not be the perfect answer, but I'll bet it saved a lot of little clubs that would have been gone under years ago now if it wasn't for them.

There sure seems to be a lot of cry baby ditch riders out there who are scared to pay a few extra bux on thier insurance if the integration where to happen, and then on top of that to complain about what the Eastern clubs are doing to better the system when they don't ride there, or SHOULDN'T BE without a pass makes me think you should all sit back and give your head a shake. Go find a rock or a tree in the snow hidden somewhere, maybe the down time on your sled would give you some time to think about things.
chevzr2
QUOTE(4MULA-DLX @ Jun 29 2008, 07:32 AM) *
If you don't want to buy a pass and ride the trails then don't, but don't knock a system which you don't support in any way shape or form


thats exactly why people are bucking the snopass integration on the insurance, they don,t ride the trails so why should they pay for it?
chevzr2
QUOTE(wildoat @ Jun 27 2008, 10:05 PM) *
One idea. Maybe Snoman should be working the feds and the province to get some of the fuel tax that goes into our "3 tanks for a snopass" sleds. It all comes down to dollars and an injection like that might actually make the organization what it needs to be.


this would be a much better idea then integration of the snopass, leave it as is and get the road tax dollars from the feds to help pay for the grooming and maintainace of the trail. after all the road for a sled is the trail right? i know that in many states there is no road tax on gas used for recreational purposes so why is it here we have to pay? maybe all the sledders, boaters, atv rideres and all off road drivers should lobby or protest to the government to get some results?
4MULA-DLX
QUOTE(chevzr2 @ Jun 29 2008, 10:46 AM) *
thats exactly why people are bucking the snopass integration on the insurance, they don,t ride the trails so why should they pay for it?


75% of the people who pay into EI every day they work will never get to claim...so is that of any use to them? NO, but it does benefit those who are out of a job for whatever reason.......the integration isn't about personal use, it's about building a trail system for the province that can benefit everyone, and that includes business and personal....just because you don't ride a trail this year doesn't mean you might not what to jump on one next year...and the Northern guys who complain, well we all pay for things up there and down here, so use a little of that tax credit and help to possibly get a trail up to your community!
srxtwins
You people are all so focused on what integration will do to the cost of sledding to riders....lets look at the true big picture. Once the passes leave snoman's office they are in the hands of volunteers who use thier own vehicles and gas to distribute the sno passes to all the vendors out there so that you can easily purchase one. Then in mid season the volunteer must visit all the vendors and again spend his time,vehicle wear and gas to collect the funds for all the early purchases and then check to make sure everything balances to return those to snoman. Once again in the spring the volunteers must complete the same process to close the season. In total it amounts to a pile of time and money out of someones personal pocket for the benefit of all sledders. These people owe us sledders nothing and is absolutely wrong to continue to demand...yes demand that they continue to do so. Integration is the only way we have at this time to stop abusing the generosity and kindness of these people who have looked out for our interests for so long.

To all those who do this difficult job for the clubs, THANK YOU VERY MUCH, its about time this burden was removed from you all and just maybe you can get a some riding time back again that you had to give up for this task.

P.S. I also do wholeheartedly agree that the government should be kicking back some gas tax into the trails. The tourisim and small business benifit would be more than significant.Here are a few canadian numbers.....1995..alberta economic development estimates economic impact of 162.6 million....OFSC..2005 economic impact study showed ependitures of 1.2 billion......QFSC....econonic impact study showed over 1.5 billion generated, even Nova Scotia in 2005 is reporting expenditures of 22 million.
toban
QUOTE(chevzr2 @ Jun 29 2008, 10:51 AM) *
this would be a much better idea then integration of the snopass, leave it as is and get the road tax dollars from the feds to help pay for the grooming and maintainace of the trail. after all the road for a sled is the trail right? i know that in many states there is no road tax on gas used for recreational purposes so why is it here we have to pay? maybe all the sledders, boaters, atv rideres and all off road drivers should lobby or protest to the government to get some results?


Minnesota has a completely different philosophical and financial system as compared to either Manitoba or Ontario.

In Manitoba, the Snoman association is a user pay system without the Manitoba government being involved with financial support other than some of the national parks. In Ontario, the OFSC (Ontario Federation of Snowmobile Clubs) is a full blown user pay system without any provincial or federal financial support or compensation. It operates competely from the funds derived from the sale of trail passes.

Using Minnesota as a comparison to either Manitoba or Ontario is not a fair comparison. You can't "cherry pick" a certain part of the Minnesota agreement and apply that against a user pay supported trail system to make a valid argument.

Perhaps when the Manitoba government implements the integration policy and we can see how it will apply to riders who have made their arguments for and against integration, only then will we start to see what the financial benefits will be to the clubs, the cost of this integration system and if necessary, what financial assistance might be forthcoming if the club requirements are more than what trail pass monies provide.

As I understand it, the Manitoba government will unburden the clubs from having to sell and collect monies for trail passes which is a big responsibility on volunteers, who in most cases, do not receive any cost compensation for use of vehicles, etc.. With gasoline now having passed the $6.00 a gallon price, there's little argument that this is a burden on volunteers. Through consultation with the Snowman association, trail pass money requirements will be levied and collected through integration in order to give the clubs the necessary funds for grooming, trail maintenance, etc..

Here is some information as to how the Minnesota snowmobile trail system is financially supported by the Minnesota state government and the rider's financial participation regarding registration and trail pass fees. The Minnesota snowmobiling trail system is heavily supported by the state government because the state sees that as a good state ROI (return on investment) as it relates to tourism. It is evident as to why trail pass fees in Minnesota are much cheaper than in Manitoba or Ontario. Not having a better understanding of how other systems are financially supported and operated results in some of the hysteria and misunderstanding that ensues.

The following link provides more information.


http://www.mnsnowmobiler.org/index.php?pageid=428

Snowmobile Trail Funding 2008
Snowmobilers Pay for Trails

Every time a snowmobiler buys gasoline for his/her snowmobile in our state, the $.20 per gallon gas tax that is paid at the pump, goes into the snowmobile dedicated account. The gas tax paid at the pump is a user fee. If we put the gasoline in our motor vehicle, the gas tax goes to roads. If we put the gasoline in our boats, the gas tax goes to public lake accesses. Farmers are able to purchase gasoline for their non-road farm equipment without paying the gas tax. Based on studies done by the legislature, the legislature has determined that 1% of the state’s annually collected unrefunded gas tax revenues are attributed to snowmobile gas purchases. This user fee is approximately $5 million each year.

Snowmobilers also pay snowmobile registration fees and trail permits to fund the snowmobile trail program. The amount appropriated by the legislature to fund the program for FYE 6/30/08 and 6/30/09 is $14.2 million. These funds are available from the gas tax, snowmobile registration and trail permit receipts. $8.4 million is paid to groom and maintain approximately 20,000 miles of trails through the grants-in-aid program and the balance goes to the Department of Natural Resources for program administration, enforcement and grooming and maintenance of approximately 2,000 miles of state snowmobile trails. No general fund dollars pay for the snowmobile program.

Grants-in-aid funds are paid to a local unit of government based on the number of miles in a trail system. In many cases, the local unit of government contracts with a local non-profit corporation, generally a snowmobile club, to do the trail maintenance and grooming. The funds pay for equipment purchase and rental, fuel, culverts, bridges, signage, trail maps and insurance necessary to do the trail work. The grant amounts are based on an average reimbursement of 65% of equipment use and labor for snowmobile trail maintenance and 90% of the cost of the equipment use and labor used for trail grooming. Club members volunteer their time and often hold fund raisers to help pay for the work on the trails which they are providing to the general public.

In January of 2003, a Legislative Audit Report on State Funded Trails for Motorized Recreation was presented and found ... “snowmobiles have gained a level of acceptance in Minnesota and contributed millions of tourism dollars to the state’s economy.” The oversight concerns expressed in the 2003 audit on the snowmobile program have been addressed in program changes. Each year the Department of Natural Resources conducts program reviews of the grant recipients. All grants reviewed are being managed in accordance with the program requirements.

Snowmobiling is important to Minnesota’s economy. Minnesota’s snowmobile trail system is the backbone of winter tourism in the state. With a snowmobile trail system budget of $14.2 million, a conservative $200 million is generated in tourism dollars. A recently completed economic impact study reports the snowmobile effect on Minnesota includes 8,000 jobs with wages and salaries of $245 million; $529 million in gross state product; $1 billion in gross receipts/sales and $56 million in state and local tax revenues. Snowmobiling is an important industry to Minnesota and the extensive trail system is provided to the public through snowmobile user fees.


Minnesota United Snowmobilers Association
7040 Lakeland Avenue N., Suite 212, Brooklyn Park, MN, 55428, United States
Phone: 763-577-0185 Fax: 763-577-0186 website@mnsnowmobiler.org
© 2007 Minnesota United Snowmobilers Association


chevzr2
[quote name='toban' date='Jun 29 2008, 11:24 PM' post='4013793']
[b][color="brown"]Minnesota has a completely different philosophical and financial system as compared to either Manitoba or Ontario.

who said anything about minnesota, i said many states do the gas tax thing for off road vehicles! its time the government looked at ways to promote this sport for the huge financial gains instead of taxing everything to death! whats going to happen when the liberal carbon tax comes in or the ndp's beater legislation? how long till it applies to off road vehicles? some one has to start standing up for the users and not let one member of the government state what is going to happen!
toban
I picked Minnesota as an example as it is a bordering state of Manitoba and Ontario. You made a general statment in relation to "states" without naming any. If you want to put up a state name whose government supports a snowmobiling program in that respective state, then let's examine their participation with regards to financial support.

As for any level of government putting back the road tax monies into personal recreation sports such as snowmobiling, I don't believe that wiill happen now or in the future. Gas taxes are too much of a lucrative source of revenue to release any of it to support a trail system. We can't even get decent roads in the provinces from those taxes!! I drive on the roads 12 months a year - ride on a snowmobile trail about three months a year. I'll pick roads ahead of trails where money is concerned. It costs me more to get a front end alignment than a trail pass.

Snowmobiling has been on a steady increase in what it costs to ride. Unless something quite drastic happens (like governments having a change of heart - fuel tax to trail system), the plain fact is that if you want to ride, it's going to be expensive!!! This is not a sport for a $35,000.00/45,000.00 a year earner who has a wife, kids, mortgage, etc. and whose family welfare is a primary concern.

Carbon tax, going "green", incentives (non cash) and changes in how we live in relation to fossil fuels IS going to have significant changes on lifestyles and what we are prepared to spend on personal recreation and enjoyment.

With the advent of high gasoline prices, one of the things that will be impacted is tourism. We have to pay for higher prices of food but snowmobiling will fall farther down the list as prices increase.

I'm sure other reasons for a reduction in fuel prices will come forth as we get into the winter season. Users of home heating oil will have a much more valid argument for a return or reduction of taxes on home heating oil. What effects will the increase of fuel have on rents and seniors who live on a fixed income. Snowmobiling is he last thing on their minds. Who is sticking up for these people? In Ontario for example, the price of natural gas goes up 20 percent effective July 1st, 2008. Happy Canada day everyone.

If anything, I would fault all governments for not doing more to promote snowmobiling (winter tourism) much more aggressively AND the various tourism entities such as hotels, motels, restaurants etc.. For example, here in Kenora when organized snowmobiling through the town of Kenora was threatened, non of the members involved with tourism could be found. They only started to make some noise once the results were seen and a threatened loss of revenues for them before they started to make noises. Did they promote their establishments? Did they spend a couple of hundred bucks to put out signs on the trail system giving notice to riders on where to get gas, food, lodging, etc.? Was any information or directions ever posted on the local snowmobile website (no charge to them) giving directions or advise riders of what was available and how to get there? The answer is an emphatic NO! Like the rest of us, they waited for somebody else to do it.

Some merchants have tried to promote snowmobiling with a discount for snowmobile riders. A perfect example of this was the casino (correct me if I'm wrong) in the Grand Beach area. That came to a sudden stop when it was found out that it was being abused by the SNOWMOBILE PUBLIC!!!

Riders for or against government participation in the sport can't agree on whether it's good or bad to start with. What levels of government participation do we want to have? Hell, the government appears to be reluctant to participate with the sale/collection of the trail pass. You are going to damage their brains if you make them try and figure out a way to release fuel tax and satisfy everyone who rides a snowmobile.

Bottom line - if you want to play it's going to cost you. It's all about priorities.

chevzr2
good post! we are getting shafted, and families will no longer be able to enjoy a great sport
wildoat
Frmldlx did you even read the thread? Maybe read up.
YamaDoo07
QUOTE(toban @ Jun 30 2008, 08:51 AM) *
I picked Minnesota as an example as it is a bordering state of Manitoba and Ontario. You made a general statment in relation to "states" without naming any. If you want to put up a state name whose government supports a snowmobiling program in that respective state, then let's examine their participation with regards to financial support.

As for any level of government putting back the road tax monies into personal recreation sports such as snowmobiling, I don't believe that wiill happen now or in the future. Gas taxes are too much of a lucrative source of revenue to release any of it to support a trail system. We can't even get decent roads in the provinces from those taxes!! I drive on the roads 12 months a year - ride on a snowmobile trail about three months a year. I'll pick roads ahead of trails where money is concerned. It costs me more to get a front end alignment than a trail pass.

Snowmobiling has been on a steady increase in what it costs to ride. Unless something quite drastic happens (like governments having a change of heart - fuel tax to trail system), the plain fact is that if you want to ride, it's going to be expensive!!! This is not a sport for a $35,000.00/45,000.00 a year earner who has a wife, kids, mortgage, etc. and whose family welfare is a primary concern.

Carbon tax, going "green", incentives (non cash) and changes in how we live in relation to fossil fuels IS going to have significant changes on lifestyles and what we are prepared to spend on personal recreation and enjoyment.

With the advent of high gasoline prices, one of the things that will be impacted is tourism. We have to pay for higher prices of food but snowmobiling will fall farther down the list as prices increase.

I'm sure other reasons for a reduction in fuel prices will come forth as we get into the winter season. Users of home heating oil will have a much more valid argument for a return or reduction of taxes on home heating oil. What effects will the increase of fuel have on rents and seniors who live on a fixed income. Snowmobiling is he last thing on their minds. Who is sticking up for these people? In Ontario for example, the price of natural gas goes up 20 percent effective July 1st, 2008. Happy Canada day everyone.

If anything, I would fault all governments for not doing more to promote snowmobiling (winter tourism) much more aggressively AND the various tourism entities such as hotels, motels, restaurants etc.. For example, here in Kenora when organized snowmobiling through the town of Kenora was threatened, non of the members involved with tourism could be found. They only started to make some noise once the results were seen and a threatened loss of revenues for them before they started to make noises. Did they promote their establishments? Did they spend a couple of hundred bucks to put out signs on the trail system giving notice to riders on where to get gas, food, lodging, etc.? Was any information or directions ever posted on the local snowmobile website (no charge to them) giving directions or advise riders of what was available and how to get there? The answer is an emphatic NO! Like the rest of us, they waited for somebody else to do it.

Some merchants have tried to promote snowmobiling with a discount for snowmobile riders. A perfect example of this was the casino (correct me if I'm wrong) in the Grand Beach area. That came to a sudden stop when it was found out that it was being abused by the SNOWMOBILE PUBLIC!!!

Riders for or against government participation in the sport can't agree on whether it's good or bad to start with. What levels of government participation do we want to have? Hell, the government appears to be reluctant to participate with the sale/collection of the trail pass. You are going to damage their brains if you make them try and figure out a way to release fuel tax and satisfy everyone who rides a snowmobile.

Bottom line - if you want to play it's going to cost you. It's all about priorities.


Another good post Toban..... The joke in Canada is that Manitobans are cheap!! It appears that is true. God forbib that a Manitoban moves to Ontario and has to pay just about 200 bones to ride! .... I know that I have started a few threads to stir the pot...but it is just getting stupid already. Leave the system the way it is and pay to ride.
toban
QUOTE(YamaDoo07 @ Jul 1 2008, 01:13 AM) *
Another good post Toban..... The joke in Canada is that Manitobans are cheap!! It appears that is true. God forbib that a Manitoban moves to Ontario and has to pay just about 200 bones to ride! .... I know that I have started a few threads to stir the pot...but it is just getting stupid already. Leave the system the way it is and pay to ride.


We do seem to have a penchant for always looking around to see if we can save a buck or two. The word "wholesale" comes to mind...:-) In todays world, perhaps that's not such a bad thing.

Snoman, trail pass vendors (who are usually businesses with a vested winter interest), hotels, restaurants, clubs and anyone else who has some idea for attracting and promoting snowmobiling should get their collective heads together and form a "task force" or think tank. Every small town such as Beausejour, Oakbank, Portage la Prairie, Neepawa, etc. all have local business councils that we could work with. We should be using this pre-season time to find ways and/or promotions directed solely at riders to identify some type of incentives, discounts, etc. that might keep the ridership intact. We may not be able to increase pass sales but perhaps we could keep what we have.

The time in between seasons end and season beginning should not be wasted. We should be encouraging clubs to meet at least once a month during this time to try and get ahead of things like snowmobile promotion and ways to attract riders. During the season is not the time to do this as there are trails, signs, grooming and a whole lot of other things that demand immediate attention. We have to try and stay ahead of the problems. The STR (Sunset Trail Riders) in Kenora now meet once a month to figure out future signage improvements like warning signs for 24 hour grooming, men working on trails, ice road warning, etc. that should be inventoried and ready to go at the beginning of the season. We also stay on top of dealings with the MNR for new trails, work permits, etc.. Those are some of my ideas of a part of the "big picture".

My fear is that once a business closes for winter or a rider sells their sleds and gear, the chances of them getting back into snowmobiling is small to none.

Gasoline is the main culprit that is going to hurt the most. Gasoline vendors don't have much of a margin to cut from. Oil companies have a large menu of reasons and governments are tight fisted unless the ministers of tourism are "hard core" riders.

I try to mitigate my gasoline costs by buying in bulk. For example, in Kenora, gasoline is at least five cents litre more than in Winnipeg. I'll give them credit in the fact that we now have Canadian Tire and The Wholesale Club (affiliate of Superstores) are now selling gas. This helps. The Canadian Tire money and the seven cents a litre towards groceries (Superstore/Extra Foods) does help. If I have to buy gas in Kenora, I'll usually fill my sled and a couple of five gallons cans from one of these outlets. When I'm heading to Winnipeg, I usually take five cans with me, fill them and haul them back out to Kenora. There are times when I'm 95 plus miles away from my cabin (Nopiming) where I support and purchase fuel at the lodge, or at Dryden, Sioux Narrows or Vermilion Bay, etc.. This is about the only way I can keep costs down.

I like to keep track of where and how much I spend so I track my snowmobiling costs for the winter. Another Manitoba frugal practice. For example, my $180.00 pass. I rode a total of eighteen times on that pass which means I paid $10.00 a ride. I bought a pre-season Manitoba pass and I rode on that pass three times to Nopiming. I also ride for the club as a member of the Trail Patrol and a member of Risk Management and ORS accident investigation/reporting, but I'm not counting those rides as opposed to my personal riding.

I spent around $850.00 for gas and $69.00 for meals. Those are the three main expenses with gas being the "heavy".

I usually buy injector oil by the case at pre-season promotions or at end of season clearance times. I ride a 2003 Polaris Classic and I am still using the VES oil as I still have a few jugs left - BUT - I may soon make a switch to the Shell synthetic at a later time to reduce my oil costs. My goal is not to reduce my riding but to at least maintain what I rode the previous years.

In the last two years, I've retrained myself to ride at a lower speed. 50 to 60 mph is lake cruising speed with the odd burst up to 90 plus, but that only takes place once a ride. That sure has made my gas go further.

Perhaps another way to reduce costs would be to have clubs make "group" oil buys. This might benefit the sellers of snowmobiles/parts/oils and riders alike. It might also benefit clubs by making the oil available to pass holders only which might appeal to riders when thinking about buying a pass. Just a thought.

For this coming season (2008/2009) I know with a good degree of accuracy, that my gas expense could suffer an increase of 50 to 100 percent.

Here's something else that comes to mind that will be of interest to Kenora and Manitoba riders. We got our permission to put in a trail that will run on the East side of Kenora. It will connect the Pipeline trail L102, Black Sturgeon Lake to the Redditt trail L103 and Nopiming trail L104 to the "A East"/"A West" trails via the Longbow lake trail. Make sure you all get yourselves a new map this coming season once they become available. You will be able to download the map on the STR website. Sorry, but I'm not above a little "shameless self promotion".
TheBat
Many good points have been made both for and against trail pass integration. The issue that I find most compelling is the desire to reduce the burden on the volunteers involved in the distribution, collection and administration of the current snopass system. There simply has got to be a better way, and it would be great to free up the available volunteer's time to help out on the actual trails, which is a more direct benefit to the snowmobiling public.

It's been suggested a few times that the government should kick in some money to our sport. Frankly, that is a tough hill to climb for a number of reasons. Firstly, the image of sleds in the media doesn't help when the only time you hear about them is related to accidents and we've all heard the focus on speed and alcohol being involved (although it's a pet peeve of mine that if a sled is travelling at 50 mph which in many situations is a safe and reasonable speed, then it is cited by the media as speed being a factor, perhaps because that level of sensationalism in reporting is what sells).

Then you run up against the environment issues associated with all recreational vehicles including boats, ATVs and sleds, anything that the government tries to do to help is going to create a fuss with the environment lobby groups, so it's easier for the government to stay out of it. And my final point is about the notion of using "road tax" dollars. In Canada, unfortunately, our tax system has a "fuel tax" not a road tax, the difference being that there is no direct tie between tax collection and road repair spending. The provincial and federal taxes go into their respective revenue pots and are then considered against all possible areas of spending regardless of how the taxes were collected. The reality is that there is probably a lot more tax collected on fuels than there are dollars spent on roads. Right or wrong, it makes the argument that we pay tax so we should get some of it back into our sport, not a very strong one in the current system. That might not be right, and it might bug you, but it's how it is today.
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