Hello community!

My name is David and I´m from germany.

I want modify my engine to run on alcohol (ethanol,methanol or propanol/ether mix)

Today I´ve found your forums and I hope, that some members can give me some help.

Well, I know that isn´t Snowmobile racing but there are the same good 2-stroke engines in it.

I think heare in europe we are still in its infancy with modifications about alcohol.


I drive in the german 70ccm 2-stroke class and I want to drive on alcohol.
About the engine:
I´ts an automatic (vario) scooter engine with a completely ported 70ccm high-end setup.
The output power on backwheel is 22Hp with 98ROZ gasoline.

Carburator: 28mm flat Keihin PWK
Bore:47,6mm
Stroke:39,2mm
Compression: about 1:15,5
Ignition: Digital-variable
Exhauspipes:many different custom build pipes

-Cylinderporting on nice transfer and exhaustimings and the CVT is optimiced with special angels.


About the projekt:

Class: (150m) or (1/4-1/8 mile-Dragrace)

The class is open for all fuels and I want to build up an ethanol or methanol engine because all drivers only drive on normal gasoline and I hope to can perform a lot of more HP out of alcohol.

I don´t have expirience with alcohol on engines.
But it´s not a problem to make special heads, exhaustpipes or modifications!

Also a friend has a dynamometer.
The realisation is possible but I don´t know what I´ve to do!

-How much % I win with ethanol or methanol (I think methanol has a better energy-output, isn´t it?)

-What´s up with an alloy of nitromethane?

-How many % oil is the best mixture?

-What I have to do with the head (design,squich and compression) and other parts (carburator,ignition..)?

-What´s up with the spark-go hotter or colder as with normal gasoline?


Thank you very mouch !
Regards David

Not sure what you will learn here. Lots of people with some good info, so it might be good for you. Snowmobiles don't generally run alchol, but some racers may have some info for you.

You might also check this out:

http://www.jrdrags.com/index.php

My nephew used to run one of these. I know that they used alchol for fuel, not sure if the motor was two stroke or four stroke.

He was about 10 - 12 years old when he ran this car, got it up to 60 mph in 1/8 mile (about 200 meters), so it was pretty fast.

Good luck.

^^ Ya,
I will lern from the 2-Stroke experts how they modify their engins for the 1/8 mile.
My questions are adressed to the porters and tuningfreaks.

I drive 150m or sometimes 201m.

At the end of 150m I have 105-110kmh.

Alcohol is burning a little bit colder and the charakteristics are better than gasoline (power output)-but here are nobody knows what´s to do to realize that.

Regards David

First off, you will have to make sure that all of the rubber components in the fuel system are Viton Rubber, which won't get eaten away by alcohol. Second, it will require more fuel throughout the powerband. Third, you will want to tune your compression and timing to maximize the output from the alcohol. If you have to run 98 octane now, then E-85 is like 102 octane, and you could use more comression. Oil doesn't usually mix well with alcohol, so make sure you only mix as much as you need. If the mixed fuel sits too long it will probably separate from the alcohol. Unfortunately it may require a lot of trial and error before you know if you can make it work.

~Fast

I'm no engine builder, but you have to really increase the compression to help the alcohol to combust, timing will have to be toyed with also. Huge fuel increases are necessary, along with making sure you have the right rubber as stated above.

Hello Fast 440

All my rubbers are green Viton.
Also I have an excelent Methanol-Ethanol oil-stability to 1:100 without Problems.

I will modify on methaol not on ethanlo, because methanol gives you more output power than ethanol or E85.

The problem are the tecnical datas, like:
-how mouch compression? 1:20 more? less?
-wich plug? I use on gasoline 98 NGK 9
-the setting of the ignition isn´t a problem because I go to the dynamometer
-the setting of carburator for an aproxximate value ? I think I have to calculate of 1:14,5 gasoline and 1:6,8 methanol. Than is more less 300....?
-What about the head ? angle or radius?

If somebody tests it out ,please tell us how much power methanol can give against the gasoline.

Thanks

I've been trying to find out about running "E-85" here in the USA (85% alcohol), in my ATV's. A name I keep seeing is Dennis Packard, for the correct carb parts to use alcohol in the PWK carbs. There is alot of info on changing Yamaha Banshee 2 strokes over to run alcohol, but not so much for 400 Polaris's. Your head is real close @ 15.5 : 1, and at least 15 to 20% more jet size than on gas. Good luck.

The head isn´t real close, because the squich is in a normal distance. This compression results of the head-design.
I think 1:15 isn´t enough for E85 because on normal gasoline i´ve tested also 1:17 without problems (knockings at higher rpm).

So your saying even higher than 15.5 : 1 with E85 (85% alky) or just with 100% alky?
I suppose the squish clearance could be tighter than with gas too?
FYI, my motivation is not just for Max power, but economy. My ATV, @ 15.5 : 1 on race gas, uses 110 octane, @ $6.00+ per gallon here, E85 is $2.70 per gallon, so even with using 20% to 30% more fuel, it would be similar power and way cheaper to operate.

Hi David , You can get lots of info regarding engines for etanol ,metanol on this website

www.macdizzy.com

I think you will endup at using approx 2.5 times more fuel with metanol than gas , and with metanol you can run 20:1 compression , But there are some problems ,
You need a strong ignition , and the pipe design has to be different because the metanol burns cooler.
Good luck / Ron

Hi Waterdragon68!

Now I will only modify my engine on methanol, because the differecne from gasoline to E85 isn´t so extremely.
Methanol Exhausts will be made-no problem, because I´ve an EGT.
The Ignition is very good and the 2,5times more fuel arent importand methanol is much cheaper than gasoline.

Greetings

I'd say that you will be surprised with the karacteristics of that engine on alcohol. Properly tuned it will really rip..

after your done using it, make sure you purge it, or else the cylinder will go to shit, lectron and packard make alky type carbs and stuff, so look into them, and when you start tunning it, start out way rich, and then slowly work your way down to the ideal afr, just make sure you dont go too lean with that alky

An old racer was talking about this a couple weeks ago at a grass drag event.

Back in the day they used to run alcohol and he was having a hell of a time trying to make power. Then completely by (probably drunken) mistake he put his carbs together with NO MAIN JETS and it came to life. Apparently they can't get too much fuel when running alcohol.
Ran it without jets and was very successful. Give it a try.

Without mainjets i´ve a diametre of 5mm. I think that is a little bit to rich

The Problem is: Nobody has made deep experiences to tell me the exactly way to modify it.

What kind of vehicle is it intended for?

Try it dude!

double the size of the main jet for alcohol/methanal(compared to gas) is what dirtbike magazine stated when they converted a bike for a 25% increase in HP over gas,and hi-compression is good as stated above,,

Nobody can help me-So I will test as long as the cylinder is alife.

I´ve made combustion chamber inlets for my 2 pieces head now.
Designed for a higher compression and rpm rate.
I will try it first with 100% more of diametre (mainjet).
The plug will be 2# hotter.
I´ve special oil mixed up with the 99,8% methanol-first 4%.
All gaskets are from Viton and the perfect ignition and carb. setting I will test on dyno.
Than we test +- 10 different customexhausts because of the other exhaustgas-temperature.

If I get results, I will inform you

Best regards
David

I have run Methanol in my drag quad for yrs, When I started out we had to increase the jets x3 and raise the compression, The only downfall is you have to purge it when your done, I run really rich gas threw it until it smokes like hell, Alcohol is corrosive

^^ Yes I know
The crank will be (corrosived)
After the race I swich to 100% oil and give my crankcase 50ml of oil.

I just know the basics of how alky is different than gas and it sounds like you know as much or more than I do about that so I cant be a whole lot of help to you but there are guys running it in Yamaha banshees (I dont know if you have them in germany a two stroke 350 cc twin 2 stroke that are very popular to modify) There has been discussions of this in the past on www.bansheehq.com that might be a good source of info for you.

also us snowmobilersdo alot of tuning to cvt systems and there is alot to be gained there. if you are running a cvt transmision never stop experimenting

Sure we have Banshees but atvs are not often here
But the drag-scene here in germany is only car-drag and often scooter-dragrace (70-90ccm 2-Stroke)
Thanks for your post.
I will check it out......