Got this in a e-mail from a friend back in MB:

The Eastern Region of Snowmobiles Associations(ERSA) has recently voted to cease all snowmobile trail grooming for the upcoming 2008-2009 season.
ERSA includes ALL snowmobile clubs east of the Red River
ERSA feels there has not been enough effort and progress with the governement for the integration of snopasses and plates. We would like to see this issue decided by the end of 2008
With the increasing price of fuel and lack of volunteers for the clubs, this action is something we didn't want to do but, were forced to do, to at least maintian and improve the quality of snowmobiling in Manitoba
We would like all snowmbilers to contact their local MLA and let them know that you would like to continue snowmobiling in Manitoba on groomed trails

i call bull$hit, the eastern region, $hit , winnipegers ride 75% of the time IMO

i pay for passes to just ride there mostly, no grooming , garanteed no buying passes, but i will ride

I still say it a good joke, to see who will fall for it, ersa cant say i heard of it , POLARIS DAVE ???

No joke. I knew that it was coming to a vote at the last meeting.
We'll have to see if everyone sticks to their guns.

well Dave, thanks for the confirmation

i think i can speak for MOST riders who goes east, [almost everyone } if its true and gets voted against grooming , that WILL BE END THE OF SNOMAN,, as far as passes i wont be buying
i wonder how all the regular stop offs for food and fuel feel , traverse bay,birchwwood,stead,casino,pinefalls,LCB, ,beausejour even
ive spent tons of cash there myself

i know for a fact woodridge suffered big time this year for lack off fuel alone, south junction loved it

that sucks... never go east but it still sucks

Dave, I was wondering if this is to try to help to push the government in the integration process, if it is I am all for it.We have a cabin on Lee River & I assume this action would include this area.Maybe it would help if the ERSA contacted all the clubs on their intentions.I believe support from more clubs may help the process.I am an active member of our club in the South Interlake and volunteer as much as possible so I believe in sno passes,and not speaking for the club, but am hoping for a quick resolve for integration.I have seen too many people riding our trails without passes,but have not reported them (Like I should have).

It is my understanding that the vote in the eastern region was not unanamous. There was some clubs that were not present at the meeting and a few that voted to continue grooming next year. In my opinion I think that as the time comes closer the clubs that voted not to groom will back down and it will be business as usual.

If my information is correct the government was at the eastern region meeting or a snoman meeting and stated that they were behind integration but it just wasn't possible to push it through the system for this year but expect it to be in place for next year.

If the grooming does not happen in the eastern region next year it likely will create a funding disaster for snoman which may in the long run be a good thing. The system is not working paticularly well for all regions and people involved in making trails for everyone to enjoy. A revamp and restructure of how snoman works might be just what we need in the long run, but rest assured if this does happen there is going to be some bad years for all snofund trails ahead until things get worked out again.

its time to long travel the sleds then boys, back to the old ways!

Integration is a touchy subject.

Integration does not guarantee more money. I cannot see the gov't strong arming all of it's constituents owning snowmobiles to buy a SnoPass. There has got to be options for non-trail users.

There is no guarantee that SnoMan will increase it's funding, nor the individual clubs geting more money. The purpose of integration is to simplify the collection of SnoMan monies since everyone lready registers their sleds.

On top of the Snopass cost, the gov't will also charge a collection fee and take money from sledders to cover MPIC's costs.


My opinion is that I don't agree with a blind tax on registrations for SnoPasses. It will deter some people from registering (and getting liability insurance). The GST was never used to only pay down the debt, the gas taxes are not used on roads, and the cigarette taxes are not only used in healthcare.

So what about the South East Sno Riders?

Well, I'm sure everyone knows what my opinion is on integration. And I agree strongly with ALuCsRED, don't think that everything will be sunshine and roses once the government is involved in collecting fees for a recreational trail system. You can rest very sure that not all money will go back to the clubs. Our club has officially withdrawn from Snoman, and I think that's for the best. Chances are, we won't have a groomer run down our trails at all next year. But that won't mean that they will go unmaintained. Things will go back to the old days of homemade drags and community involvement.

I'm really looking forward to next season. Actually, there's a bunch of people heading out across the lake to the cabins tonight, by sled. It's been snowing for almost two weeks up here.

I really do sympathize with you guys down there that do rely on the groomer to go snowmobiling. My advice is to get out and actually do some exploring. Trailer a bit if you have to. I know there are many many areas down south that have endless ridable areas that don't see groomers. Get out, slow down, have fun. There really is a lot more to snowmobiling that going as fast as you can from point A to point B with nice signs telling you where to go.

Well, unlike the good old day, there is a pile more sleds out there. A lot of riding is on private land. Trails now have permission to run on private land, and with the increased numbers in sleds, it works, because permission has been maintained. Take away the trails with permission, and you still have all these sleds running on private land. back in the day, with so few sleds, it wasn't as much an issue. You can bet, however, that wherever there "was" a trail, people will still be running, and you will see that landowners aren't near as friendly to unwanted trespassers.
Sure, you can run in the crown lands or parks, but how fun is that going to be when 25 000 (exaggerated for dramatic effect) sleds run there every weekend ?

Gropus like SnoMan have meant more sleds. Lose SnoMan, ineveitably less sleds, but that will take awhile before it gets back to the way it was before SnoMan.

I agree with many points made here on this post. If trail systems are dropped and sledders use the shot gun effect and pick what ever trail they want to cross private farm land where farmers have sown winter grains and or new hay land the farmers will definately be very hestitant to allow or sign off on a trail easements in the future to allow groomed trails across their land. I have seen this happen where a local trail will be changed for what ever reason and snow mobilers ride where they want the farmers get very upset. The problem is that the first phone call they make is to the club, the club in turn try's to explain that they can not control all snowmobilers but the damage is done as far as the land owner is concern.

I was enlightened by an earlier post about integration that I was a 100% behind untill I got many different views from many different areas and riders. Now I really don't know that integration is for all, you have the Gilliam riders that have concerns that don't apply to many riders in the south, but why should they pay for our play? Not fair! Then you have the trappers, fishermen ect that make their living off of the land and again I don't think integration is fair for all. One of the problems (and there are many with the sno-pass system) is the policing of trail users not purchasing trail passes but using the system that many voullenters work hard to maintain. They cut up the trails they use the warm up shacks and burn the wood ect, they are a problem. The sno pass system is also very time consuming to manage for the clubs ect. I agree that if intergration takes place it could be a deterant for riders not to purchase insurance and that is not what we need to see as we are increasing personal liabilities while trying to make the sno pass system easier to maintain.

I know that the eastman group had a majority vote not to groom in the 2008 to 2009 season and this is not good for the sport of snowmobiling. I hope that a fair resolve can be achieved for all but I don,t think that integration for all is fair either.

I don't think you have realized the main problem here. This issue is not about whether the clubs will receive increased funding, or about if MPI will charge a fee for collecting the Snopass revenue (which they have promised not to do) but it's really about the huge amount of volunteer time and expense that goes into distributing, monitoring and ultimately collecting funds for the paid passes or gathering up the unsold passes. It's the absolute worst thing a club has to do each year. It's a monumental task and a large financial risk to each club. You need to know when a club receives a book of passes from Snoman, the club is then financially responsible for that book of passes, whether they get sold or not. For example, our club has approx. 30 vendors selling passes. That's a lot of risk as we are responsible for all of them. All it takes is one mixup and our club is on the hook. There is nothing in it for the vendors other than supporting our sport and hopefully gaining some customers in return, so how much time and effort can they spend keeping the passes straightened out? Once again, our club was missing some passes this year and luckily they surfaced within the last week. Had they not been found, our club would have had to pay over $2700.00. We can't afford that.

So this issue needs compromise from all groups. You guys up north do have a good point about not riding groomed trails, but I'm sure you realize your numbers are in the minority as compared to the Southern riders. In the end, our laws must be decided by the majority. The south certainly supports the north in other ways, so this is some give and take. Fisherman and Trappers may not use the trails, but they run a business and the cost of the Snopass would be a legitimate business expense that they can claim as a deduction. Still a cost yes, but reduced by their their tax rate. I hope your attempt to run as an independent club and opt out of Snoman is successful, however our club finally had to drop our independent status and merge with Snoman because we could no longer purchase liability insurance. It wasn't a case of cost, we simply couldn't get any company to give us a quote any more. If that works out for you, please post which company would work with you.

Think of all the businesses that will suffer if the Eastern Region shuts down. I talked to one lodge owner that said he was busier in the winter than he is in the summer. That would be a big hit to loose all the winter revenue.

As far as those that claim they won't register their sled if the passes become mandatory .... Just think about it .... You get stopped by the RCMP or Conservation Officer, and now your sled is impounded on the spot. you can't stop at any restaurant or park in any small town for fear of being spotted. What fun that would be? Or just think if you would be involved in an accident without any liability insurance (perish the thought), it could be your financial ruin. Is is really worth squabbling over a measly $85 or $100?

Guys, I've talked to our local MLA and it sounds like the plan will come to pass, maybe not in time for this season but for sure for next season. Let's step back and look at the big picture. The Snoman clubs all support it and they represent the majority of the riders. You've all had your right to freedom of speech and voiced your views, and I respect that. Now I hope you all will respect the law if and when this law is passed. Let's get over it and collectively support our fine sport.

Just go through with integration, for F*ck's sake. I would personally vote against it but at the same time wouldn't be overly pissed if it did happen, I'm 40/60 on the issue. Guess I'm gonna have to get s/p suspension and ride bumpy trails. Oh well I don't mind it rough.

Yes. ERSA wants integration for the upcoming season.
FYI, ERSA is made up of directors from all of the clubs in the eastern region. This currently has nothing to do with the other regions.

Yea, I heard it was something like 9 to 2, so only 11 clubs present. I hope that this does not hurt our current relationship with government, as we will have to work with them much more in the future if integration is going to happen for the 08/09 or 09/10 season.
You're right that this would definitely cause a funding disaster. What would happen to all of the funds raised this past season? Could other regions lay claim to the money? Playing devil's advocate, you can say that Snoman is in the business of grooming trails, not sitting on cash because a region has chosen to follow through on threats made to the government.
On the other hand, government needs to open their eyes to snowmobiling revenues. If integration is something they're not happy with, then inject some cash into our sport. Unfortunately, snowmobiling is not considered an official "sport" in Manitoba.

What about them?
They're part of ERSA also.

Good post.
Our club is one that has been on the hook for lost snopasses also.

For all and intents and purposes, it appears that Manitoba will get the combined pass/registration plan for the 2009/2010 season. If in fact that is true, then why is ERSA so eager to pull the trigger to shut down their trail grooming and only for the Eastern Region? Why would they not have reached out to the other regions of Manitoba? Perhaps others think that this is a bad idea. Does ERSA know something that the rest of the clubs do not?

I don't understand why ERSA would force the issue when snowmobiling in Manitoba and elsewhere is coming under a lot or pressure with gas prices, etc., thereby making matters that much worse for the struggling clubs. Every year it seems it's harder to hold onto past membership numbers and the 2008/2009 could be even worse with a good possibily of $1.75 to 2.00 a litre gas price. Some smaller clubs may not be able to recover.

Perhaps ERSA should show some good faith/support and give the Manitoba Government the year to make good on all the hard work and efforts of those who worked on this project. They could still pull the trigger next year is they are so inclined. After all, this plan was only a proposal a year or so ago.

Just my 2c's, but I think this is a bad idea at a bad time. Time for cooler heads to prevail!

Bison716 were you in Swan in Feb for the SnoMan meeting? I'm trying to figure out if I followed at the end of your riding group...

In terms of the enforcement, it is non-existent in my riding area. I've run my sleds for the last four years (5200 miles) around the area with my license plate in the trunk of the sled. I've never had to show it to anyone. I don't believe anyone would purposely not have liabilility insurance, but the thought of giving away $85 to $100 for a pass for something you will never use is an issue.

Maybe the answer to this problem would be a rebate for those not riding on or near Sno-Man trails. They'd be able to opt out and get a rebate check in the mail. The they'd be able to raise fines to like $1500 and people would really think if they'd opt out.

Sorry, not me. I haven't been in Swan for a few years now. I understand your logic, but again the Southern riders mess it up for you. Most down here that claim they never ride groomed trails are not believable so a rebate for all situations is not going to work. Maybe take the opportunity to hop over on the Saskatchewan side and use your pass to ride groomed trails on their side.

I would say those that threaten not to register their sleds will do exactly that, and will be without liability insurance. Sad but true.

I think this concept will just have to be accepted as a fact of life. The statistic I heard was that Northern Sledders are about 2% of the total, you can't make it completely fair for everyone.

Shut er down. Once fuel hits 2.50 you will be able to buy a good used sled for a couple grand!! Then it will go back to the good ole days when you ditch banged, visited the chiropractor weekly and in a good year you put on 300 miles....oh what joy!!!

A massive fine for those who opt out and get caught would be great,but if it can't be policed then it's useless.

Well you can count my sled as one of the cheap used ones. I'm not gonna keep a heavy four stroke trail sled around to put on 300 miles a season of backbreaking packed ditch riding.
If this happens I will sell all my stuff and go back to an old leaf springer. No registration, NO SNOPASS, low mileage and low gas bills.
One evening a weekend I'll be out on the floodway pounding back the booze and cruising around at 20 mph. The good old days will be back. We will adapt LOL.

I was at that meeting and all the clubs except one was there the vote. It went like this 9 for ,2 against and 1 abstained. The funds that were raised this past season should go to all the clubs that groomed last season. The snofund was set up so that you groom one season and get paid for it the next season. In other words you do the work first and get paid later.
As for integration of the snopass, there was talk that fishermen ,trappers. and part of the North would be exempt. Some one had wrote in one of these posts that one State in the US, I don't know which one. They have differt prices for differt year sleds. I think that would work. I have heard a lot of pepole ask me why we couldn't sell family passes for their kids sleds that only go out a few times a year.This is where the differt rates would come in.

This happened last year also. Some very strong opinions from ERSA which are not shared by other areas. Don't worry the trails will not be shut down. The volunteer reps are tired since very little turnover of new reps happens.

And you are sure of this statement?

So are you calling bullshit on the original post?
Seams fairly real to me????

I can't see there being a family pass system, as it is illegal for anyone under 16, or without a license to operate a snowmobile off their own private property, so MPI would never encourage yog riders, and if your 16, well then you have to pay lika anyone else does for the sled pass. The system works if the price only rises $25-$45 per reg., but anymore then that and the cheapo's are gonna go without reg. and make it a little more dangerous for everyone riding without insurance. Nobody ever thinks something bad will happen to them, but when it does, is a $100.00 really worth taking the chance?

Shouldn't be family passes any way.Why should a family of 4 get a break when those 4 sleds will beat on the trails as much as 4 separate sleds?

The bottom line is we don't have enough help. Volunteers are older & burn't out. Lots of people bitching but nobody is helping out the local clubs. Taking care of snopasses is way too much work. Paper work etc driving around. It would be 1 less thing to worry about.
Dan

Yes, that is one of the major problems we are facing. We're also responsible for handling thousands of dollars in cash and cheques.
If all of our efforts could go into actually grooming instead of chasing passes and paperwork, you would see better trails.

Yes but regardless, it's still a private organization, that should not be funded with public dollars. Not everyone decides that they need fancy groomed trails to ride. I have been involved quite heavily with the snowmobile club, and definitely agree that there could be a better way. I strongly feel that integration isn't it.

When it comes time to speak, I think the majority will feel otherwise, and that's how a democratic system works....

The trail system is not a private organization. Anyone with a sled can ride trails unlike golf courses that are privately run. The department of natural resources oversees everything that happens with the system and snoman cannot proceed with significant changes without their input. In simple terms.....government control =public system.

I do,however,agree that integration may not be the best answer to fixing the problem our trails now face but at this time it is the best option brought forward.It is wrong that a few volunteers should donate 100's of thousands of dollars of their time for so many. If sledders will not get involved and do their volunteer part to keeps costs down and a few volunteers from carrying the load for many then they will have to pay to continue to have trails. Unfortunately the side effect is there will be some that honestly do not use the trails that are going to get swept up in the fix. As we go along I am sure we will see the faults with the fix and correct them but for now it is the best solution we have. The following pic's only show about half of the actual sleds that was at this stop.It was not that long ago that you would never see this many sleds in one place. Just as our sport is ever changing so must the way of managing the support system.

The way I see it if they don't groom I don't buy a pass and I'll have more money for fuel. As for integration I think it can be a good thing if it can be properly managed. Also to my understanding that if all sledders pay for a pass through integration compared to the percetage of sledders that buy now they should be able to lower the cost of a pass and still maintain the same level of revenue if not increase revenue.

[quote name='rollboy' date='May 19 2008, 02:19 PM' post='3978292']
The way I see it if they don't groom I don't buy a pass and I'll have more money for fuel. As for integration I think it can be a good thing if it can be properly managed. Also to my understanding that if all sledders pay for a pass through integration compared to the percetage of sledders that buy now they should be able to lower the cost of a pass and still maintain the same level of revenue if not increase revenue.
[/quote
The no groom thing is only in the eastern region, if it happens at all. All other regions sound like they are going to try to be business as usual and will most likely still require passes to ride.

Even though this discussion is centered around grooming there is ripple effects which make it a much more serious issue with the trails. If the clubs follow through with no grooming that will also mean....no signs,and more importantly no landowner agreements. You as a sledder will no longer have any right or permission to ride on any trail that was on private land.This will temporarily cripple the existing trail system in the east and if sledders do not respect landowners during this time permant dammage to the system may be done.

To all sledders out there.....PLEASE respect land owners. Even thought there was a trail there last year DOES NOT not give you the right to ride on private land this year.

I don't quite agree here. Anyone can jump a fence and start playing a round of golf, until the owners come out and ask them to leave or call the cops on them for trespassing. Is that not the same thing with people who either ride on private property without permission, or someone who rides the trails without a trail pass? You can do whatever you want until you get caught.

Anyone can ride a trail on public or crown land, that is not part of the "snoman" or individual snowmobile club network and improved and maintained by said club. Conservation officers control of what happens on Crown Land, as it is by definition property of the crown, or government. As a number of snowmobile trails that are maintained and improved by a snowmobile club run on Crown Land, Conservation have been given a say on what happens with the official trail network, however if changes were to be made that were strictly on private property with the approval of the land owner, I don't believe Conservation has any say whatsoever. If I was to build a private moto-X track on my own land for my own use, would Conservation have a say? And why should they?

4MULA, you are right, the majority will probably say otherwise.

[quote name='low-1' date='May 19 2008, 04:18 PM' post='3978448']
I don't quite agree here. Anyone can jump a fence and start playing a round of golf, until the owners come out and ask them to leave or call the cops on them for trespassing. Is that not the same thing with people who either ride on private property without permission, or someone who rides the trails without a trail pass? You can do whatever you want until you get caught.

Anyone can ride a trail on public or crown land, that is not part of the "snoman" or individual snowmobile club network and improved and maintained by said club. Conservation officers control of what happens on Crown Land, as it is by definition property of the crown, or government. As a number of snowmobile trails that are maintained and improved by a snowmobile club run on Crown Land, Conservation have been given a say on what happens with the official trail network, however if changes were to be made that were strictly on private property with the approval of the land owner, I don't believe Conservation has any say whatsoever. If I was to build a private moto-X track on my own land for my own use, would Conservation have a say? And why should they?

Low-1........good arguement and I don't think I can think up a respectable reply at this time. But I am sure you are aware conservation has the final say on snowpass prices no matter who's land it is on so I still lean towards it being a public system. As for the moto-x track....in your own words it would be priavte so you could do as you wish with it without conservation input........unless I jump your fence and don't get caught.lol

Shut er down.....I'm moving to Gillam!!!

i guess its time to trailer to better trails and snow. (ie...western manitoba)

Or BC,
we can be still riding here if we want to, but hell its boating season!

yep. ice just lifted off the lakes around my cabin on wednesday/thrusday, and the snow is gone (almost all of it). boating season is here. still wanna try riding across the lake wiht the sled tho.

Better wear a life jacket if your riding your sled on Daddy's lake. Sno pro you have never even rode in the east or Whiteshell so STFU already.......and yes we know you live 5 hours from winnipeg.

how do you know i have never ridden in the east??? you dont.

if they arent going to groom the trails then why not trailer??? o i forgot, its to far for people from that area, but they insist on us trailering to low snow conditions, small possibility of grooming, and rocks (this is just from reading this past winter about the trails around and east of winnipeg).


i hope they dont stop grooming in that area. would be terrible if the amount of trails out there arent groomed and with the amount of sleds, the trails will be terrible.

What in the hell are talking about? Who are they? Who insists you trailer down here? I love the duck mountains one of the best spots in mb. Nobody is disputing that. I just can only take so much of your BS responses, doesn't matter which sight you are on. You would think after posting a zillion times on a ton of different boards you would catch on to other people continuously telling you that your an idiot. Please for everybody's sake read your words before you post. Just try and look intellegent once in a while. If you want to be a conservation officer I suggest you learn how to talk and deal with people. If everytime you meet somebody you tell them about your 50" Pike or the hundreds of 33" walleye in wellman or a million other lies they are going to know exactly who they are dealing with......you don't want that, it would be embarrassing

1. not going for a conservation officer. why go into that. id rather make more money and have a steady and know i have a job
2. i have never said there are 33 inch walleye or 50 inch pike in wellman. they may be in there but shit i havent seen them. biggest ive seen with my eyes is a 30.5 inch walleye and a 44 inch pike. that pike is the biggest i have seen out of any lake.
3. how are they BS????? i posted on another site about two mile being good right now for trout. well shit, i sure hope it is as people staying where i work are having a blast catching them. posted when the ice was off, so people didnt waste time and money when there was unsafe ice. posted when the snow was all gone and what the trail conditions were like. ya total BS even tho they were accurate posts. if you want an accurate report, the smallmouth bass are starting to hug the shore line on the south east side of the main lake.
4. dont get me mixed with my father. im different and dont take after him.
5. id come down and fish around wpg but i currently have no way to get my boat down as my car wouldnt be able to pull it that far without blowing. id also sled more around there but samething, my car wont make it with the sled behind.

have fun this coming weekend with whatever your doing and good luck fishing this summer and have hope it snows lots all over the province this fall, winter and spring

Thats strange you just posted that you were thinking of coming down on another site today

Snopro31 writes is it that bad??? im thinking of driving down for a day of fishing but dont want to be casted over and tangled. are there other good places around lockport that produce like it?

Oh wait that will be without your boat correct?

This is funny, have a good year Brandon

and the subforum is called from the shore.....so im thinking i just MIGHT be fishing from shore.

wow, are you 2 guys posting above married or something, sure seems like it, now get a damm divorce, stfu, and bring topics to this post which relate to this post!!