Dear Sen. Ellis,

I am writing you in response the DNR effort (proposal) to stop ATV trails in Oneida and Vilas Counties submitted by Steven Peterson. His representation of the Trail Proposal to the DNR Board was very biased and used costs for trails that were more per mile than building a state highway? Most of the trails were existing gravel county roads and snowmobile trails with only a couple of river crossings. The DNR proposal for the Northern Highland-American Legion State Forest ATV Trail, under Steven Peterson, was the most biased report I have ever seen. With all the existing DNR resources trying to protect"their forests", can't the State Congress realize the need to keep monies in state, instead of having people spend their monies ATV'ing in the UP of Michigan.
I have paid my ATV registration under the assumption that more trails would be created. By going through the DNR all we get is "NO" answers and less trails. This should be a people decision, not the DNR's. I should just register my ATV in the UP of Michigan and spend all my vacation money there, because that is the only place to ride given the fact that my vacation property is in Vilas county.
Time to trim the DNR budget and spend more on our local Schools, Roads and Law Enforcement before the DNR. I propose with starting with Steven Peterson and the group he manages.
We are some the worst taxed citizens in the USA! Why do our schools and kids have to suffer? Cut the DNR's budget today, spend the money on the people instead if we can't get a trail through the woods

Sincerely,

WISCDAVE and family.

Voting Republicans


DO
NOTHING
RIGHT

Not with my money, time to trim the fat. Cut the DNR buget 50%...who would be crying huh??
All their studies, proposals, etc...who gets paid to do that in the real life. We can get all the info they provide by NON for profits.

Pretty amazing they are out of money after you see all the money they spend on that great Fence in Townsend for the ATV I was told. What a bummer they need to make more ATV trails up that way. Good luck as I have found out pretty hard to get the DNR to understand comon sense!

This is a touchy situation because of the amount of property needed to make this as seamless as snowmobiling. The gracious landowners allow access during the winter months because they cannot do anything else with the farm fields and wooded property during the winter months. Also the frozen ground protects any wear from erosion of the ground. Can you imagine what the trails would look like when people spin their ATV's like they do their sleds, and who will maintain the trails, mark them, groom them so they do not get too rutted.

This summer version of snowmobiling is an activity that is in it's infancy. At this time the money generated from ATV registrations would not sustain the task to make this happen now. Hopefully in time this will evolve into a stronger activity that will justify the number of volunteers and paid club members to make this an alternative summer activity.

I love to ride when we are up during the summer months, but am also frustrated with the limited trails, and the need to trailer the ATV's to where we want to ride.

Have a great summer everyone,

this proposed trail was on State Forests, that mostly utilized County Gravel roads and existing snowmobile trails that are sand and gravel. All we really needed was a couple bridges and their blessing and we were good to go. Basically if the DNR management doesn't like something, it doesn't fly. Total BS

Give it some time to evolve some more. Like snowmobiling, when the dollars from registration, and tourism become to big to ignore, the DNR will buckle under the pressure to open more trails to the public. The numbers are still too small to force the DNR into backing down at this point.

Trust me, I want more opportunities to ride too. The loop we have to deal with now is about 10 miles. By the time you do the second lap you get bored and load'em up and head back to the ranch.

Ahhhhhhhhhh finally!! Rumor is that the The local Vilas Hwy Commish was on the news saying that the cost used in the proposal is more than the local hwy construction costs!! The news is all over this Biased DNR report. I'm loven it, like McLoven!!

Anybody hear this?

I have heard that the atv plan was destined to fail. The resources board did not want it to work. The plan they have set for the trails is nearly the same as a hwy. in size. WHy do atv trails have to be 60' wide? Little do they know that atvs are in the master forest plan so there will be atv trails in the forest.

If Wisconsin can develop a premier trail system which connects destination spots, business and services it would help the economy of this state. Some areas in Wisconsin could use the boost in business and outside recreational money. I think areas like Onida and Vilas County get a lion’s share of summer and winter recreation money already so to me it would be nice to see development of trail systems where the added money would be more welcome, appreciated and needed. Yes they have the forest but I have seen many small rural towns in this state that look like they would welcome outside recreational money from ATV use. A premier system could draw ATV'ers from all over the country.

The rails to trails program is fantastic and needs to be expanded where ever possible. Unfortunately too many of these abandon rail systems have gone to private sale years ago or do not allow ATV use. It would be fantastic if those that are left could be transformed into ATV trail systems or multi use trails. It is my perception that rail grades that do not allow ATVs are hugely underutilized (Mountain Bay, Oskosh to Hortonville and south of Tigerton to name a few areas). ATV use could bring tons of money to the communities they connect. Damage and erosion on railroad grades and developed forest or other gravel roads is minimal and easier to maintenance.

Expansion of rail grades, forest and/or other gravel road type trail systems may reduce pressure on some of the more erosion sensitive areas or populated areas which object to ATV trails.

I'm from a small central Wisconsin town where the rail grade was sold many years ago for housing developement. Today the downtown business activity is minimal at best. If the rail grade was still there and there was ATV and snowmobile activity who knows how much different things would be for that small town.

DNR just wants our money but doesn't want us to ride on "their" forests. Total bullshit!!!

The natural resources board (according to Wisconsin Outdoor News) took 2 minutes after they heard a few hours of comments at the last meeting to vote the trail proposals down. There was 2 speakers in favor of the trail first & then a whole string of them against it for the remainder of the meeting. The cost to develop those bridges and infrastructure was insane. The two biggest arguments against the proposal was the impact to homes with dusty conditions and the cost to patrol by local agencies.

Somehow the other counties in the state can help out and pay for their trails but the state with its huge pockets can not? I think the current screwed up Doyle budget had something to do with this. The state is scrapping for every penny they can find.

Remember these areas that don't want you there with your ATV in the summer. Maybe haul your boats, atvs and snowmobiles right on through thier communities and keep right on going to areas that welcome the cash. Fill up your gas tanks and have lunch elsewhere. Money talks.

Oh you bet, there's not many places that aren't for sale in Vilas County. The FIB vacation house owners on the lake are all against it, or the guys that retired up there from FIB land. TIME to increase your state taxes a-holes because our STATE is in a deficit and we need money for the schools. Also, after the gas pains hit them with no tourists this summer they'll come back on their fuggen knees saying ATV'ers are welcome. Only houses up there selling are forclosures and the FIBS are about to get hit with some massive property tax increases and want to sell too. Friggen tax the FIBS out of the state. Go after the people with the money on the lake, not after the people just trying to get by. Reduce the gas tax, double the lakefront property taxes on 2nd homes and WHAMM gas is down .25 here.

Dave, you sound bitter in your posts. Perhaps you need some rest and relaxation? I live in Michigan, but have lots of friends and family in Minocqua / Lake Tom area. Tourism hurting there? You gotta be kidding. Just because the area doesn't want your "sport" doesn't mean the economy is hurting. Do you really think there will be any less boats on the lakes? Any less sleds in the winter? Real Estate on the water coming down? You have been inhaling too many exhaust fumes.

My boys and I ride dirtbikes, but dislike you "quadtards." Do all quads have to spin donuts on the trails? Dust is a huge issue from quads and trail maintenance would be needed to keep the trails smooth. I bet you would complain if trails were made but not kept smooth enough for you. The world does not revolve around you. Go someplace that does what you and your kind; Vilas county does not want you.

My brother lives in Lake Tom it wasn't to happening this weekend. Just wait the gas pains hurt last winter, summer and will hurt more this year. Only houses selling are the foreclosures on the lake and in town. Your unemployment benefits from Detroit must be running out and the beer is getting stale cause they are starving up there.

yeah life sucks... but Michigan sucks even worse. Ride in a straight line all day, real fun, no wonder the railroad grades are dusty. I have a 4*4 atv so I like it rough, I had a yz250 and would really rip by people at like 60 growing up including your kids on the 50s I bet you would really like that huh, no chance getting 2 wheel bikes let alone wheelers. Heck we have enough trouble keeping the Snomobile trails open from the hot heads like you. My 4*4 atv gets great gas mileage, isn't loud and crazy loud like a bike and doesn't do donuts too well. My old bike did donuts better.

bottom line is there is plenty of space for everyone if we could all just get along. If not lets just get in the ring.

Wow, good answer, and I mean that. I really am a fellow redneck that loves northern Wisonsin and burning gas, but I guess I've had one too many run ins with rebellious quaders. Call me guilty of labeling the whole barrel bad because of a few bad apples. Maybe my views of "all quaders" can show you how and why so many people don't want them around?

Either way, I would split my stale beer with you and debate nicely. Did I mention that Mr. Petersen is one of my oldest friends? He was best man at my wedding and he has earned respect from me. The DNR promoted him with reason; I believe his findings and report are fact based, not personal. I met him while riding off-road in near Lake Tom over 30 years ago and he still has a dual sport bike; he is "one of us." Consider cutting him a little slack.

Yeah I guess he has your attitude towards "quadtards". I can't wait for him to get fired.

Mr Dave,

I have tried to be nice, yet your last comment is just plain rude about my friend. Thus, no shared beer with you. Instead I offer insults:

"The only skill required to ride a quad is a fat ass and a thumb"

"Your name sounds like part of a nipple."

You sir, are a quadtard personified.

I have seen alot of trails shreeded by bikes. More trails have been trashed by bikes than quads. There is a good reason why bikes are not allowed on the little rice trails.

Hey Tom,


Your pretty interesting and I hope your friend gets fired from his Big $$ government job that he does not represent well. Any time you would like to discuss this face to face just let me know. Please shoot me a PM when you will be in town next. That way we can meet and I can throw you in the mud personally. If you want to slander my name fine, just have the BALLS TOM to do it to my face you little man otherwise STFU.

Cheers,
Dave

x1 Bikers do tend to be a roudy bunch as well. I do enjoy cycles too, but there is really are like "no" trails that allow them in the state.

Plus Tom, or the guy is Probably Steve Peterson because he thinks he knows me somehow likes to say that bikes are better than quads. Should we try for a bike trail then?

People in Vilas country hate dirtbikes even more than they hate ATVs. Ive owned both and lemmie tell ya, dirtbikes tear up a trail far, far, far more than do ATVs. Not to mention that most dirtbikes are much louder than ATVs.
Ive always found the dirtbike crowd to be a bunch of egotistical, eliteist a-holes and you definetly seem to be upholding that reputation. You can call ATVers, "quadtards" all you want, but I'll tell you one thing, Id much rathar sit down and have a few beers with a bunch of ATV riding rednecks than to hang out with a bunch of spikey-haired, eliteist scumbag dirtbikers any day.

sounds like a lot of shit talk as usual,now all,see all,do all???????

I personally ride a quad and don't usually have a problem with dirt bikers, in fact I actually ride with a couple of dirt bikers. But it's the mentality of people like ExcitableTom that piss me off. That it takes no skill to ride a quad. I would love to ride with any of you dirt bikers and switch out on an MX track and see how easy it is to ride a quad. It's not as easy as it looks. And yes both dirt bikes and quads will tear up a trail system, but it seems to me that dirt bikers make deeper ruts and cause more erosion than quads.

I will agree that yes there are a few bad apples out there that ruin it for everyone and that also pisses me off when you have riders doing donuts in the parking lot. I personally run with a quiet core in and obey the speed limits in towns to help keep dust down. As soon as I'm out on the trail that's a different story.

From a forum for YFZ's that I frequent also wondering why dirt bikers hate on quad riders
http://www.yfzcentral.com/invision/index.p...;hl=Dirt+Bikers
http://www.yfzcentral.com/invision/index.p...;hl=Dirt+Bikers
And my personal favorite
http://www.yfzcentral.com/invision/index.p...;hl=Dirt+Bikers


I believe that ATV trails are a great compliment to snowmobile trails that are used in the winter granted that they aren't in an area that is being farmed, swamp, or something that would prevent ATV's from using that trail.

I should clarify. No, I'm not Steve using an alais name; I'm me: ExcitableTom from Grand Rapids and Minocqua, WI. My anger is with Dave for insulting my friend without knowing the story. The debate on trails lasted well over a year. The residents and non-quaders were more organized, vocal and won. Blaming the DNR is silly. Try organizing into a club with money, members and organization and you will get your trails. Look at snowmobiliers as an example.

Me, I'm a biker. A few bad apples (quads) have given me a less than desirable opinion of quads, but I respect anyone who respects the outdoors and "plays" within the rules. I'm not sure what trails you all ride, but in Michigan, we have both quad and seperate bike trails. Bike trails are too narrow for quads, ie, single tracks. My experience sees quad two tracks are more torn up than single tracks, but that's an endless debate.

Regardless, if Dave can call out my friend by full name, why can't I call out dave by his full name? It doesn't matter. I suspect that if dave and I met in the woods and didn't know who each other was that we would get along fine. Dave: I challenge you to organzie your troops and get legal trails made, not try to blame one person (who I know for a fact is not against trails) for losing the battle.

Your thoughts?

Are you really as stupid as you sound?

Did you even read the suggestions made by your friend "Steve the Greenie" Peterson - who is a govenment official and can be called out by the public. He used prices to constuct the trails that were more than the county highways - which the County Highway Commish said so on the local news. It wasn't the dnr's decision to make or suggest, it was how it can be done. His report was totally biased towards the ATV'ers...where was that in the job they were supposed to do??? It was how can we get a trail through the forest. Not tell us how a couple of rich lake front landowners are against the entire idea!!
Also, how do all the other counties that have trails in Wisconsin on State Forests get their trails maintained and created so cheap??? Because the Local DNR and Clubs used their good judgement and said that a atv doesn't need a 32 ft wide trail with 3 ft deep gravel bed to ride on. The local club didn't need a road they wanted a trail. Come on, these guys are in bed with the greenies...just like you Tommy boy or Steve or whatever your name is...

Or let me know how your buddy Steve thinks we should do it..if he so "for" the trail system. I know one way to come up with the money fire his arse.

I hope you have something personally invested in the tourist industry? If so please elaberate if not STFU...

No, I never heard the part about 32 foot wide trails with 3 foot deep gravel beds. Highways are not built to those standards; thus I gotta call "BS" to someone. No reasonable person would believe that thus I can't believe anyone would say or attempt to use that (especially my friend at the DNR.) I will ask him though.

A greenie??? I've been called a lot of things in my day, but never a greenie. Redneck is the most common, then the names go down hill from there. Trust me, I use off road trial systems at a minimum of twice a month year round and I support my hobbies (sleds, dirt bikes, boats)

Your last paragraph mentioned the DNR and CLUBS got and maintain trails in other WI counties. There are not any clubs in Vilas county for quads and/or dirtbikes. That is your first step. Take action, not words (as I used to tell my girlfriends when I was single...) The anti trail people are very organized and that is why Vilas still has no trails. I want trails; I just think it's a cop-out to blame one DNR agent; do you really think Steve made the decision by himself or maybe he's the top ranking local guy who announced the decision?

I'm a member of the Northwoods ATV Association

Northwoods ATV Assn
PO Box 26
Boulder Junction WI 54512-0026
email: rickrev@nnex.net

I believe the biggest in the state and located in Vilas county. There is also a club in Phelps that I'm aware of, but not a member. Mercer is in Vilas county and probably has a local club too, since they actually have trails right accross the road in Iron county. We've tried but the local DNR are against us, time to get with the times.

Its funny how the Ol'time Sledders, some of them my friends Dads from when I attended Northland Pines High School in Eagle River tell me how they had this battle to first establish the snowmobile trails up there. Everyone was against the idea, all they wanted was a path through the woods to ride their early 70s sleds, not fast, nothing fancy just a path. They even had a hard time getting it through the state lands like we are now, the private landowners were even more of a challege but they did it and now look at Vilas county. The locals like to bragg about being the "snowmobile capital of the world". I wonder how many realize the troubles the first riders took blazing that first trail. Consider me one of the local atv'ers that want to do that. heck 20 years ago we would just ride in the state forests and down the ditchlines, the local law enforcement would tell us how fast we were going and just tell us not to rip up the yards or gravel. Now you can't even push your atv down the road with out a ticket.

Not at all. Just telling it like it is.

Amen to that. What really irritates me is that they will let the deer hunters take their 6,000+ pounds pickup trucks on the forest roads, leaving 6" deep ruts whereever they go and that seems to be OK, but they scream bloody murder at the notion of having ATV trails. The way I see it, an ATV would do a heck of a lot less damage than a pickup truck.
Vilas country will eventually have ATV trails, its just a matter of time.

i know i will piss someone off here but if you want to ride on a "SNOWMOBILE" trail buy a snowmobile! just my opinion!! atv's get trails to ride up thre all summer, way more time than us sledders get per year!! i just dont like what quads do to the trails, they make them more dangerous by putting deeper ruts in them. hang me if you want but its the way i feel
brent

This was during the summer...on mostly existing snowmobile trails and forest roads. I'm fine with no atvs during the winter so that should not have been an issue.

Yeppers, I drive my truck all over that forest during bow and gun hunting season. The ruts are sometimes bad, but there are no stops where you can't and can not go. And guess what I see an occasional atv back there....oh no the DNR are reading this forum and going to go ape shit.

What do the DNR greenies do all day anyways with our tax dollars who manage the forest. Just surf the internet?? Real hard job I bet that could be cut out of the budget, and I bet you wouldn't know the difference. I emailed my state senators, I hope you all do the same.

Yep, you really are that stupid!

Great Answer there wise-guy!! Why don't you go back to school and get your GED so you can respond with an educated answer?

I certainly hope you presented a much more intelligent, well thought out argument to your senators than you've been able to articulate on this board.

Thats a great point. But what I wanted to do here was spread the news and get the fire going that a couple individual Greenies should not control the forests The main purpose of this thread was that the DNR does not control the State Forests and they did not put forth the scope of what they were asked to do. Do you know who paid the price? The folks of Vilas and Onieda Counties and everyone else who likes to ATV as a sport.

If you want to send a letter to your local state senator supporting the DNR's desicion thats fine, but maybe then you should be not be hanging around hardcoresledders.com try tea-for-me or flowers-r-us.

Latest rumor I heard is that a Federal Judge is involved now....Steve Peterson misrepresented the People involved is the bottom line. We didn't want a fricken hwy, we just wanted a trail.

wiscdave, if i read this correctly, you want to use exsisting snowmobile trails as part of an atv trail. if i'm not mistaken, we are talking about using portions of the snowmobile trails that the snowmobile clubs raise/spend money and volunteer hours of labor to maintain. would the atv club be doing the same? would they be able to carry their weight? when would the trails close for the atv's? i guess what i'm really getting at is, why wouldn't snowmobile rider's be opposing this?

My guess is that most snowmobile clubs that allow ATV traffic on their trails reach an agreement with the local ATV club in regards to maintenance issues. Many current (and former) snowmobilers also own and ride ATV's, and are/were members of both organizations, so that makes it a bit easier to coordinate trail maintenance efforts between the clubs. Some ATV clubs often drag the trails in the summer to prevent severe rutting, making it easier to pack the base when the snow arrives. From what I've seen, (in MOST cases) the ATV clubs do a fair job of pulling their weight when it comes to keeping in the good graces of the snowmobiling community.

As both an ATV'er and snowmobiler, I support the opening of trails to ATV traffic in the summer providing this will not result in jeopardizing land access or trail quality for sleds in the future. I do not trail ride my ATV in the winter, so I am indifferent when it comes to granting ATV's access during the snowmobile season. However, I believe most clubs limit ATV riding to favorable snow and temperature conditions so as not to create excessive damage to the trail base. If this can be adhered to and enforced successfully, I have no problem sharing the trails in the winter months with ATV's.

rozo jr., well put. i guess if that were the case i would agree with it also. in townsend however, i do not know of an atv club that shares the trails with red arrow, who does a wonderful job keeping up the trails. there may be a club, i'm just not aware of it. my only concern is the dates the trails would be open. this would have ot be something concrete or else we would end up with atv's ruining our snowmobiling base. lord knows we've had a hard enough time the last few years as it is, we don't need atv's ruining an early base. i do agree that atv's should have a trail to ride, i'm just a little worried using the exsisting snowmobile trails will have a negative effect on the snowmobiler's. hopefully someone will come up with a good solution to this problem.

If you're familiar with the Townsend area, maybe you remember these photo's from last December when they were trying to establish a base for the upcoming season...

http://www.snowsafari.com/showthread.php?t=1029

This is unacceptable in my book, and it is what most people think of when discussing the use of ATV's on snowmobile trails.

Well the ONE fricken trail we wanted in vilas county got shot down so don't worry about ANY Atv use there. If there was shared use, I'm sure it would be similiar to Hurley where you have a restriction above 30 degrees. My F7 will put a hurt on any corner just as bad if not worse than an atv so its not good to give them a bad rep. Just like sledding if a guy wants to Mess up the trail he can on any sled as well as an ATV.

I agree, but the photos were taken at a time when the trails were closed to ALL traffic. If someone did this on a sled before the trails were officially opened, it would be just as unacceptable to me. As I said before, I don't mind sharing the trails, if the conditions allow.

DNR sucks in Wisconsin