Hey if the trail riders can get a fee tacked on with "OUR" insurance for "THEIR" cause why doesn't every group hit the government up.

Racing fee 100 bucks on top of registration to pay for maintaing a smooth drag track for setting up machines
also includes a track for Pro X - would like to see them...ohh about as common as 7/11's
The money would be used to build and maintain the tracks and strips.

then there would be the 150 bucks for the environment friendly route....in which the money would be used to keep the trails "natural" not so much like a highway, the other users would include ditch bangers and powder riders that absolutely detest the sight of a snow highway. This funding would be used to keep the groomers at bay.

hey it is only a couple of bucks we can all chip in for everybody right .....not just the trail riders!



hey what do you think

SOUND FAIR??

where is it going to be located??? probably winnipeg.

easier and cheaper just to grade a field

I'm thinkin' we should set it up at Portage and Main that way we can run three races at a time one in each direction. We could ask the Richardson's to donate a floor or two for seating. Their philanthropic and I'm sure it would serve their interests as well!

This is an incredibly good thread that will most likely end with an even better solution!

that road is too bumpy.

Yah, your right.

If YOUR group (whatever that may be) establishes an organization, represented by people and clubs from all across the province, then becomes recognized by the province as the official organization, then convinces government to tack money ontop of registration fees to support your cause, I'll have to pay, because it will be the law.

So you would just roll over and pay extra...on top of your trail pass...for an ANTI groomer pass....I don't think so
I call bullsh*t.

You have been pro groomer for a very long time.

as you all can see nobody that would benefit from this proposal replied in favor....because they are not dictators like snoman force.

IF YOU USE THE TRAIL - THEN PAY!

those in favor of the integration should be ashamed for forcing non users to pay for their pleasure.

the groomed trail is for your comfort, insurance is for liability the two should not be combined.

Good day!

Why should the rest of the province suffer for a few guys that are hardcore ditch bangers, but 85% of them know that they end up riding with a buddy once or twice a year that does ride trail and has a pass, but they would never pay.

This could really improve the whole industry here, hell just look at the magazine you get when you buy your snopass...oh wait...you don't see that cause you don't buy one, but if you did you would see that all the other provinces get pages of promotion on trails and things to do, and MB gets a one page shout out telling them about either the trailblazers club or some place up in Thompson. I for one would love to have better trails here, and we could all help out the small town business by having more traffic as well in the slow winter months.

Your ideas have no merit, but you push for your non-trail club and we'll push for the groomed trails and we'll all see who wins the battle when it ends.

Answer is simple. Because 95% of people who own a snowmobile use the trails at least a little during the season, but maybe 10% actually drag-race their sleds in one league or another. If you want to implement mandatory fees for racers and trail riders, the racing divisions should get together with Snoman and make separate snopasses at specified costs for people who mainly dragrace and don't trail ride. There could be a pass that you need to race, a pass that you need for trails, and a combined pass for "I only use trails to get to the lake" where the majority of the cost would go to the race division and just a little to Snoman.

Come on now 4MULA, just how much are you suffering? You guys suffer from lack of snow a hell of a lot more than you do from lack of grooming. Forcing everyone to pay when the register their machines is wrong. Plain and simple. Due to ongoing local disputes and disputes with snoman, it's doubtful that Gillam will even have an "official" snowmobiling club, let alone membership with snoman next year. The VAST majority of those machine don't leave the area. Ever. If we cut ties with snoman, the nearest trail system would be a 300km trailer pull down a shitty gravel road. Please tell me why we should have to support your network. Oh I forgot, to support tourism. Hmmm... how many of you have travelled up here by snowmobile to support our community? That arguement flies down south but is just stupid nonsense up here. To support the industry. Hmmm.... I was told once that if the trail system was shut down and 80-90% of the people sold their machines and got out of the sport, then every snowmobile would cost $40000. Well, simple ecomonics tells me that all of those machines that would be up for sale would get cheaper and cheaper the longer they sat without "trail riders" buying them. Seems to me like supply would far outweight demand.

So, the only benefit I can see to integration, is to have people who don't ride the trails subsidize the cost of passes for those that do. If you have a problem with people riding trails without permits, penalize those people with increased fines and enforcement, don't start reaching into everyone's pocket just because they own a snowmobile.

Can't it be done so that some one could opt out?(farmers,fishermen,or anyone that uses a sled for working).If that can be done then give the riders that say they never ride on the trails the ability to opt out also.With that being said make the fine for getting caught on the trails so high that no one would take the chance.Integration would be nice for more money=better trails,but I don't think it's right to make every one pay.

MRVX, if it could be done to allow someone to opt out, there would be no issue. Just wait for the replies though that say that too many people would opt out and still ride the trails. Enforce passes on the trails, don't force them for off the trails. Seems pretty simple to me.

You know, a lot of people have said that their tax dollars helped build the road into Gillam, and we should be greatful. Well, that road is sh*t and is about to wash out in at least 3 places, and hopefully no one else dies or becomes paralyzed this year due to 100+km of straight washboards/washouts, and the other 200km of potholes, steep ditches along narrow (and sinking) roadways. What if a private contractor was to redo the road, would you all accept a $200 surcharge on your insurance to help us have a better access road system? Sure, the majority of you will never drive on it, but you'd be supporting the economy. (and you actually would, the majority of Manitoba's revenue comes from this small little town, and every time you pay your hydro bill, remember most other provinces are at least double).

So how about it, should I start canvassing our local MLA's to have a "provincial road 280 rehabilitation fee" integrated into your registration?

Well said again Low-1!!! I am with you!!

It is done for farmers, fishermen, trappers......If they are used strictly for farming on thier land, in the scope of fishing and trapping. If they are trail riding or operating out of scope of work then they require licences like everyone else.. I don't think it is fair for all involved so it may as well stay the way it is and raise the price a bit. With the price of fuel I can see a few clubs hurting in the next few years.

So what you are saying is that I shouldn't drive there in my Vette???

Vette? Haha you shouldn't drive up here without a 4 wheel drive and 10 ply tires.

Low-1 why would I bother supporting your area if you don't support mine...or the snoman system that exsists now? I'm not going to trailer to your trails if you can't get enough support to maintin them, nor will I support your gas stations or restaurants etc. The idea is with more $ we can all have a great trail system that is worth talking about and worth bringing tourism too, but with attitudes of "we don't need what the South has" then you will continue to have no trail system and no revenue from sledders and I'm glad your happy with that, but you might want to ask some local small business owners before you speak for them.

In all honesty, I hope that integration happens one day. I also hope that people are given the chance to opt out for various reasons, like Northerners and people who use their snowmobile for their livelihood and main source of transportation and even those who do not ride the groomed trails. This will hopefully make trail riders contribute to the cause. If a trail rider wants to circumvent the system and opt out, let trail stops by DNR and RCMP weed them out. I know that peer pressure also helps in many cases. Many riders will not ride with someone who does not have a pass.
Hopefully most people will honestly opt out for the right reasons.
Would this work?

have you forgotten how cheap our society is? its insane.. no matter what anyone says its a 100 dollars. 100 dollars........ ONE HUNDRED DOLLARS. i dont get it.

You ass...it's only a hundered bucks....it is only a hundered bucks....
how much are your machines worth?

I have 5 that probably in a combined total equal one of yours and the rest of your integration buddies down south

I use it to hunt, trap, fish and when the weather is good I like to take the kids out for a rip or to go sliding, should I pay for your enjoyment I don't think so.

I think all should have the option to opt out. and you who like the groomed trails pay for YOUR groomed trails.

Low-1 if Gillam does opt out from snowman let me know...I'm in for talking about what we could do to support the groomer, ie trails to the cabins, ski hill, etc local stuff, not so much for a trail to my trapline.... oh and doing something with the quads.

Merv

Interesting, but you are telling me that I should support your system by paying for a trail pass that keeps your costs down and contributing money to a system that benefits you. So looks like you are proving my point. Look, if you don't want to come up here, fine. We've been doing just fine without you, I imagine we'll get by somehow. And you just keep on believing that we have no trail system. I went for a 80 mile ride on Monday, you? As far as revenue from sledders, again, we've gotten by for a 100 years or more so far. But I don't want to speak for both of the small business owners that would benefit from sled traffic. They are having a hard time finding people to work for them, not hurting from a lack of business.

Merv, Will told both Earl and me that he has washed his hands of Snoman and quit the snowmobile club. He sent a letter to Snoman yesterday saying he was done. So that's where it sits right now, whether or not he will change his mind or anyone else will pick up the ball. I can't say as I blame him one bit.

I would fully support such a system, and have from the beginning. Once you start taking away people's freedom of choice, you're in a place that I don't want to be.

Our current funding system is screwed up and intigration will only cause more problems untill basic issues are fixed. Snoman in their infinite wisdom insists on seeing and treating all regions the same even though each region has its own unique problems to deal with. As an example the eastern region probably has the highest traffic of any of them and is having to go to one way trails for safties sake. Whereas the northern region has lower traffic loads and remoteness issues to deal with. It sounds like the guys up north have built themselves a fine system with very little outside help and at least some are happy to continue without outside help/interference from..... say......snoman. The high traffic regions need some sort of integration system to support the costs involved in making the trail system meet the increasing demands put upon it. Perhaps regions or trails systems that are not directly connected to the main system that links the U.S. and other provinces should not be forced to operate under rules set by snoman. That would allow areas like Gillam to opt out of intigration if they wanted or to accept a different funding formula. Just maybe a major rework of snoman and how we manage the funding is in order to put both the funding and costs in the appropriate areas.

I'm an off trail rider but I do like to use the trails to get from one area to another and I do go on a couple of trail rides a year.....so I don't really mind paying the money and I will continue to buy passes even though I know I'm paying the same as guys that do nothing but trail ride.

Good points. Every region is different. Only the Snoman board of directors is able to make these changes, which are the representatives from each region.
Why can't they see these problems?
Everyone's got their head in the sand.

Chevette?

in our region, if it wasnt for the awesome work the club does on the trails, i wouldnt be buying a pass. there are no cops on the trails, no dnr on the trails. no one to check for passes and registration so why bother getting it (other then insurance purposes in case someone smacks you)???? In 15 years of sledding, we've been checked 1 time and that was when we were having lunch and our sled was outside and a DNR officer said our sled was the first sled he saw all day that had both a valid registration and pass. but he wasnt handing tickets out to the others, so again why have a pass if the system doesnt get enforced????

Good post!!!!! You are sure helping the trail system. I know you buy a pass but if everyone that reads this says "Yeah...he's right....piss on it, I'm not buying a pass!" What do you think the trails would be like in your area. You are right...there is little enforcement on the trails, but if no one buys a pass there are no trails. If you ride the trails...Buy a pass!!! If you don't ride the trails ....excellent, then no need to pay. It's just that simple. Wait until Catman reads this.....He's from Birch you know.LOL Had to put that one in there!!

Isnt he from Minitonas????

The trails look/ride awesome in our area. But you still dont see many sleds with passes or registration. The cops/dnr could sit at the warmup shacks or around them, and just to check stops. Would show that they are looking for people with no passes or registration. Always see a DNR sled in the back of the truck but never on the trail.

What is the club fee for Swan Yamadoo or Catman?????

It seems the ones left in this conversation are all talking with cool heads and I appreciate that.

another point that is not cleared up. this not written directly to anyone.

These guys that don't buy passes are they 20 years old and rebelling? or are the 45 and been riding that trail before there was a groomer?

people complain about people not buying passes, have you ever asked them why? and taken it at face value?

I bet most of them arn't dicks riding the trail just to piss people off.

How do you expect a person to fork over 100 or more dollars to ride a trail that you went over with a groomer and now call yours, and they rode that trail from the day they learnt how to ride a sled with dad. (this is what happened to me, I'm pissed off, MY freedom was taken away from ME for someone elses enjoyment, and I have to pay for it?...no way.)

I have been in support of grooming, my dad and father inlaw groomed there trails with drags my dad trapped and the father in law had a cabin (sled in winter boat in summer)
they never asked anyone for anything to ride on the trail, and that is where snowman has crossed the line, just cause you groomed a trail doesn't make it yours
these guys come from some other region to ride say the interlake, they see some sled with out a pass and get all pissed off....do you know these guys with out the pass maybe they grew up there and have rode that area all their life...before it was groomed, may be ther are heading out to check nets or traps or livestock that all happens in the interlake maybe they are going to visit their neighbour the one that lived in the same house 2 miles away for the past 45 years.

I know about the insurance the permission...

You guys down south have become to reliant on groomed trails and there is no going back...as far as I can tell you need to learn how to sell your grooming, you learn how to sell the benefit then you have more sales and less need for costly enforcement. and you won't tear the snowmobile society in half.

Tony I think you meant to end with "I can't say I blame him one bit."

I wish you guys would just run your groomers to your financial ability, if the small businesses benefit so much maybe they could pay for being connected by the groomed trail?
sell to the ones benefitting, ie riders, shops, gas stations and the one I hate the most that seems to get the most sled business....the establishments serving your booze.

Merv

I agree with most of what you have wrote,I too have been riding long before there was trails. Some days I think I had more fun back then when there was nothing but going out and looking for that really great snow area to get stuck in or that big drift for jumping.

The fact is, the south has to have an organized trail system not because we all really want it but because of the sheer numbers of sleds out here. Back in the good old days landowners really didn't care if a sled went across their land once or twice a week but now with so many sleds out there and some very irresponsible people on them it could be possible for that same landowner to have hundreds of sleds on his property in a day. The number of sleds and dissrespectful operators now create a problem that can only be controlled by an organized trail system.

I for one would love to see bussinesses that benifit from snowmobiles contribute significantly, many do in the states and a few do here,it seems to work for them. Unfortuantely you are right,the biggest bussiness winners are bars and alcohol only contributes to the basic problems that led us to this point in the first place. The dreaded catch 22.....damned if you do and damned if you don't.

Oh, I do still cheerfully buy multiple snow passes even though I rode trails long before there was trails. Passes are now just a nec fact to preserve the privalage of enjoying the sport we all love.

This is exactly what I was getting at just make the fines so high that you'd be a fool to ride without a pass.

I know a lot of guys who don't buy trail passes because they are too cheap.I buy one every year and most of these other guys make alot more money than I do(and I ain't hurtin).So it's not just young guys who can't afford it or older guys who have been riding the trails since before snowman.