First off Yama Doo 07 actually made a good April fools posting that got a few going!

I was wonerdering what do riders feel would be fair $ to charge if intagration takes place and the snopass costs are added to your basic MPI registration cost? $100, $125, or higher? Remember this is $ going back into your sport. Be cheap you will not have trails developed and or maintained as many want them. Also please compare trail pass costs from other provinces and or states. Neighboring provinces see in excess of $279 annually per machine, some places are higher? Better trail systems or ?????? what do you want! On one posting earlier was from the Gillam area he feels he is getting screwed if this takes place and makes a good point with charges through Federal Parks for everyone! How ever we all pay gas tax that helps develop our roads and now they have a road to Gilliam (used to love that train ride) but if we all didn't pay these $ there would probably be no road for them. Point being think about what you expect and or want and how will you support the sport? Cheap skate or will you grow some balls and support the sport!

I'm all for it if they prorate the snowpass like they do with the insurance. I bought a second sled for the kids in February and I have a hard time paying $115.00 for a month of riding. I did buy the pass for my sled in the fall when it was cheaper. Everytime I am out on the trails I see sleds without passes. If ya wanna play ya gotta pay!!!

So the gas tax i pay when i purchase fuel for my sled goes where?
If every registered sled has to pay an extra 100 bucks x number of registered sled= ? $
Well it will be alot more than the sno pass program is generating now.
Is there a shortage of money for the trail system currently?
Will volunteers be a thing of the past?
If the trails in my area are not groomed due to a shortage of snow one year,,do i get a partial credit the next?
Why am i suspicious of the government getting involved in the gathering of funds for a recreation sport?
Will every dollar gathered for the fund be put toward the fund? or a percentage going to the govt administration of the fund.
People have many questions regarding the funds transparency,it's not as clear as I'd like to see it.
When all you hear is "support the sport you love you cheapskate asshole",,or "f#@k them I'm not paying I dont use them ".
This does absolutely nothing but inflame the two sides,,as well as the people in the middle.

Sell Your sled and buy a horse then you can fertilize your flowers!

Of course the gas tax you pay goes back to the roads! How do you suggest that these dollars be tracked so they go back to each so called deserving user group? Snowmobilers, truckers, forestery operators or fisherman farmers, club groomers costs? Create more work and have more admin $.

Yes there would be more $ generated as there are many users that don't pay for a sno pass ect. Also even if your not a groomed trail user you get benifits from Sno-man for a number of things other then smooth trails, cheaper insurance options that where negotiated on behalf of all snowmobilers ect. And yes there are many areas that trail development and safety are an issue and if $ where available they would enhance the sport. Another example would be to purchase sno-ambulance's for various areas to enhance emergency services to haul people out who have had an accident! Remember your shooting off your mouth before you think! I asked a question and your buck teeth come out and you want to bit some buddy in the A###$SS (Gee I made and assumption? No different then you have done). $ don't just go to trail devlopment there are many things that Sno-Man deals with and yes more $ will enhance the sport. How ever the question was what do you feel was fair $? Obviously you don't care about anything more then your self. I hear there is great sledding in Siberia, Have a good one hole!

why are you two even argueing, your sayin the same shit.

Yes he is.....no he isn't. Wait, who said that......HELP stop the voices!!!!! LOL

Before you get all gung-ho, here are some comments from a gentleman from Saskatchewan in regards to integration. Please note the last couple of paragraphs where it states that there in now a push to ban all exhaust mods and deep lugs/long tracks as well. Hands up, how many of you would sign up for that?



Quote: Deep Freeze

An excellent discussion and one I tried to pursue on the SK forum two years ago.

Some points to consider:

First: what is being discussed is a fee for a private association not a tax, so all comparisons to gov’t provided tax based services (roads, telephone etc) are comparing apples to oranges. If you want it to be the same then call it what it really is: A snowmobiling TAX. We don’t put additional private registration fees on all vehicles to provide funding to private drag strips, circle tracks, off road courses etc…and that’s what sled trails are, they aren’t public transportation routes built or maintained by tax money. If this is to become the case then when can this taxpayer expect his trail to be built? Or how about the fee applied to plates on vehicles to support the local strip and car club?

Second: to me this is a lot like gun registration. So what are the chances the guy driving the 1988 Indy Sport on the trail without a pass is buying a plate either? If all of these riders without passes are not being caught, how are riders without plates going to be caught? Isn’t it the same trail whether they ride without a pass or without a plate or without both. If your contention is the majority ride with plates but no pass; and they are not being caught and fined in large numbers now without a pass, who is going to catch them later without a plate? Like guns, people who break the law by riding official trails without a pass are likely breaking the law by riding without a plate either. And if they are not being caught now, then simply adding the pass to the plate is not going to change that.

SK perspective:
Plating has not appreciably increased. Rough numbers from memory (actual are on old posts in SK forum) showed that precombined pass sales were 5500 @ $80-$110 and # of plated sleds were 10-12 000 out of an estimated 30-40,000 total sleds in province. Post combined the # of plated sleds is within 5% @$45 per sled and the total sleds in province are still 30-40,000. So all that essentially happened was 5-7000 law abiding riders got tagged an extra $45/sled/year to support a private club for something that there is no proof they ever used and may not exist in their area (common sense would say if they were already paying the $600 for plates and insurance any of those that used a trail were buying passes as well). Meanwhile nothing has been done to the 18-28,000 sled owners who never plated or trail passed their machines and most likely were and remain the issue.

In addition some trails and clubs have shut down or stopped grooming, to their credit 5 large southeastern clubs have seen an increase of use and funding for their trails. Unfortunately this increase in these areas got to the point where the association tried last year to make all exhaust mods, province wide illegal (no exemptions for racers, vintage, or areas without trails, they wanted a blanket province wide law against anything not completely OEM, no exceptions). And grooming clubs want ALL long track and deep lug (anything over 1”) machines banned (again no exceptions) from the groomed trails, the same trails that the $45 registration fee they paid funds. Welcome to the slippery slope!

To close, yes I plate, yes I live in the north, no there are no official groomed trails within 250 miles of me, and we spend tens of thousands a year privately to open trails and as low-1 put it, sometimes never cross the same track in a year (around 2000 miles a year) without ever asking for a dime back, its just fun. I’d just like to ensure all of the private recreation and development money up here stays up here, so as someone put it, our trails can grow. Siphoning money out of here (no matter the amount) to aid a private association in the south, with a larger population base to draw funding from will not accomplish that.

Shooting my mouth off? That appears to be a service who's sole provider is you.
You made an assumption? no,,that was a totally different topic,,not this one.
I'm not making asumptions,,I'm questioning the proposed fee,and it's use.
I dont care about anyone but myself? are you serious,,read some other posts,,others have the same queries and concerns.
I'm sure you must be a great guy,,but currently,you are going off half cocked on aguy who is for the most part seeing things your way.
Try not to take the whole thing personal,,I support the trail system,,I pay my money, I feel fortunate that we have so many great volunteers.
But lets not get lulled into a false sense of security when the govt starts,or doesnt start administering the funds from the fees they collect.

im not even gonna try reading those longer posts. i hate reading to begin with lol. but as i stated in the other thread, an amount that i think is good is zero dollars. what i think would be a good idea is to make an option to add a trail pass fee when registering your sled. so if you want it, you can buy it at that point and if you dont want it, you dont buy it. no this wont stop some people from riding trails without paying for it but i still think its a good idea. you will never find me paying for a trail i do not use.

and i agree with you FOF. if you dont use them, why should you pay. if you think about it. americans pay 30 dollars for 3 years of a trail pass. mainly because the government is alot more involved id guess. wheres our support. those small towns in but fuck idaho that the only reason are even in buisness in the winter is because of us, wheres our tax cut!



and by idaho i dont literally mean idaho lol but like ya know what i mean

I personally believe that if you really want to screw something up you get the government involved.

That being said I buy my trail passes every year, and I see the value they bring to the sport. If anything they should be higher so the clubs have more funds to work with. (I'll be popular with that comment)

WHY YOU &*$&# *(#$*#()*(#......LOL... Just jokin!!!! You are right....the government will screw it up and the passes WILL be higher so that they can take the 25% admin fees.

American's pay less because there's billions of them. If were not careful they'll over run us. Actually we should buy them next year when they go bankrupt.

If trail passes get to the price of other provinces i will not buy one, dont care wont pay 200 plus for something i rarly use and usually arnt the best. More then happy to pay what they cost now but you wont catch me payin over 200.

Where can you get a three year pass for those $? Would be great to know? I have been to a number of different states and I have yet to see this kind of pricing? How ever there are states that do support the clubs by suppling groomers to the clubs and taking their older units and placing them in lower traffic/ clubs with lower groomer miles to look after. Interesting if true but let us know where as I would like to contact these areas to see how it is done, maybe we could all benifit from this info!

I thought the cost of a pass would go down if they integrated it with insurance that is what happened in sask. I think theirs dropped to $40-$50

Yah it should only be around $40-50 bucks.

I spoke to a guy in Saskatchewan and yes, it is $40 added onto their registration.

I'd pay anywhere from $60 to $100. No more. Any less and it won't be enough.
The integration concept is a good idea to generate funds and make things MUCH easier for the clubs. The problem is that it might backfire and you'll see sleds with no plates at all, especially if we get seasons with poor conditions.
I'm not sure about the whole Northern Manitoba issue. There are many riders in western MB who don't ride groomed trails either. Anyone from the west wish to comment on integration?
I bought a pass this year and didn't even use it. I did one decent ride on a demo sled and that was it. My only other riding was on the club sled putting up signs. If I use the pass or not, I don't really care because I purchase one to support the system and the clubs. I'm not suggesting that others should do the same.

From Nevis, MN Trailblazers Webpage



See link for more details...

Give the guys who say they don't use the trails the choice to opt out on the integrated pass and jack the fines up sky high for getting caught.I agree there is people like farmers are brothers up north and others that don't use trails and shouldn't be forced to subsidize the ones that do.

I agree that it should be integrated at a reasonable cost of course.
50 bucks,,more than reasonable.
If you think of it like EI it's really not so hard to get your head around,,If the majority of people use the service,,then everyone pays.
Just because you havent been unemployed for 40 years doesnt mean you shouldnt pay for the possibility of one day using the benefit,,and without 100% cooperation the money wouldnt be enough.

we had planned a trip to the states, and when you register your sled there, for the first time, a 3 year pass is like 32 dollars. or yearly is 15.

Great site with alot of the same topics that we discuss ect. But just for clarification on their trail pass costs I have copied a section of the site and pasted it below The costs from what I see are $32 a year.

Oh, did I mention that this all costs lots of money to do? This was the main drive behind the annual trail permit. To continue to fund the cost of grooming and maintaining the present trail system. We wanted to fix it before it was broken. Clubs have done a lot of hard work over the last 35 years and are very proud of the trail network that has been formed in this State and through out North America totaling over 225,000 miles. We don’t want to see the system start to fall apart and close down. This was a preventative measure to help ensure that you and others will have a way and place to enjoy the great winter outdoors through the sport of snowmobiling. We feel that $32 a year ( $16 for the permit and $16 for license & registration ) is a small price to pay for 20,000 plus miles of marked and groomed trail network. This also includes enforcement which we feel could be stepped up a lot.

Now a good point made also on the site that supports a developed trails system vrs people running where they want on private land ect. Thanks for posting the site.

Over the past 35 years the 300 plus clubs in this State have built and maintained over 18,000 miles of trails. Some on State and County parcels but most are on private property. Respecting the land is very important. Using private land is a privilege not a right. At any given time a land owner can shut a section down and in many cases a reroute is not possible or is cost prohibitive. Believe me, there are many clubs facing trail closures due to a few inconsiderate users who feel that if it is white they can ride on it. My advice is, please stay on the trail as tempting as it may be to stray. It’s that Important!

Just a question on trails in Gillam- Do you guys groom them? Do you have maps availble if there are visitors that want to come and ride?

Just would be intrested in this?

Have a good one. Going riding again today, 157 miles yesterday.

Problem is everybody claims they are the majority that represent sledder’s opinion in the province, yet there is no proof on either side, only conjecture.

A logical, fair way to determine the appropriate course of action is to give people choice. This choice can be in two forms. Either:

a) Send out a survey (included in their re-registration package) to EVERY legally plated sledder in the province asking whether they support combining mandatory sno-passes with snowmobile registration or not, and majority rules. (this was not done in SK instead a survey was posted on the snowmobile association’s own website where primarily only association members would go. Gee if I made my own website, posted a survey on it to decide whether I should be given money by others or not, and then completed the survey myself, could I claim the results represent the feelings of everybody in the province?)

Why not survey ALL legally plated sledders? If you truly believe you are right in claiming the majority then a fair and inclusive survey should only be a formality for your side (which ever it is). If your side is already breaking the law by not plating, then you don't really deserve a say because you are breaking the law and therefore any law doesn't really affect you in this matter.

Or

b) Combine the sno-pass and plate but allow the choice to opt out at the time of registration, fine the sh-t out of those caught on trail who have opted out, fine the sh-t and p-iss out of those caught without a plate at all.

Good points made. A lot of the issues are due to lack of enforcment to say the least. I know you talk with enforcment people and they say that they don't have enogh man power to patrol or complete regular duties? Maybe they need to hire enforcment personal say 1 for each region and all monies recieved back through fines go to paying wages of the enforcment personal! Then the ones that say I don't ride the groomed trails or use the warm up shacks that get caught make them pay! Then the ones that don't ride don't pay and everyone is happy!

Yes the club up here grooms some of the trails. I was trying to compile a total the other day, and it's about 260km of groomed trails, including 127 km to Kelsey. The trails are in very good shape, however signage is severely lacking. If we could get some cash, I would get some reflective trail signs to put up around the area. If not, I would like to paint up some signs myself and put them up around the area early next year or before the snow melts up here if I have time.

As far as groomed trails go, they are pretty nice. The issue is that we are surrounded by thick bush, and all of the trails that are groomed existed long before the snowmobile club. Some were old traplines from HBC days, alot are existing traplines cut and maintained by the trappers themselves. There are a lot of old Hydro survey lines as well, as well as trails out to remote cabins. These trails are the only way out to certain areas that a lot of people hunt or fish.

The snowmobile club began grooming these trails... Well, lets back up a second. A number of years ago, a private individual went out and bought a used groomer from BC and had it shipped up. He would go around grooming the trails on his own basically for his own enjoyment. Before coming to Gillam, he operated skidozers and bombardiers to do fuel drops in the far north. Before this, basically everyone who went out and used the trails would pull homemade drags and cut willows or deadfall, and everyone had a great time without asking for anything in return. Then this guy started grooming the trails on his own (without asking the people who had been using and maintaining them previously). There wasn't really a problem, as people appreciated it and would help out with repairs and maintenance. A loose "snowmobile club" was formed and there was a very small, nominal fee. People didn't mind paying as everything was fairly civil, and of course the people who owned the trapline weren't expected to pay, and if people had been using the trails for decades before, and weren't asked whether or not they wanted a groomer to run down it, no one made a big deal if they didn't throw in their money. They would still pull drags and fill in holes, cut trees and brush, regular maintenance, etc.

For the most part this worked out well. Then the snowmobile club, now with an aging groomer that travels over rough terrain (believe me, if you guys complain one more time about a quad rut on your dirt road across a field) begins to require more and more maintenance and fuel prices start to go up, makes the decision that they should join this new association called "Snoman". This wasn't a very popular choice and a lot of people were pissed off about it. The club made all of the trails that had been groomed in the past into "snoman designated trails", regardless of the fact that they were never given ownership of the trails in the first place by the people who originally cut and maintained them. This is all Crown land, and when I say all, I mean all, so noone had official claims on the trails to prevent the club from doing so. Also, keep in mind it's pretty thick bush so there's no such thing as finding another way to where you need to go to hunt moose or caribou to feed your family, short of spending a few years cutting a new trail through the bush.

Now, I'll be the first to admit that the guy who tries to keep the club running does a hell of a lot of work and puts in a hell of a lot of his own time. The trails are significantly smoother after the groomer has been down it than prior to, and it is very well maintained (when the groomer is actually running. This year, I replaced the entire electrical system, which was an absolute nightmare, and the motor has been replaced. The entire thing has now been rebuilt and it has been operating well this year).

But there is really no other value provided by the club currently. There are no warm up shacks. There have been in the past, but due to prior conflicts with certain individuals, not to mention little sh*thead brats just being brats, they have been burnt down and vandalized to the point where they were removed. We purchased an unfinished 10x12 shack that will hopefully go up next year, far enough away from town that it won't be destroyed. We have plans for a few more. There are no signs (yet) that will tell you where you are, and there is no such thing as mile, north/south east/west roads to follow back to civilization. You can go as far as a tank of fuel will allow in any direction without coming across any establishments. Look it up on a map. I've asked my wife why she doesn't go out with her friends and she tells me she's scared of getting lost. Rightly so, usually once or twice a year a bunch of us will get a knock on the door asking to head out and look for someone who didn't show up when they were supposed to. And as far as having to have a groomer pass through to scrape enough snow together to ride on, that's not a problem. Even the rough trails have enough soft snow covering them that the landings are pretty soft, and there are enough hunts, icefishermen, and trappers that pack trails that they are rideable with or without a groomer going through.

So that's the rundown on the club and trail-related conditions. As far as snow conditions go, they are absolutely the best in Manitoba, second maybe to around Island Lake/Waasagamack, which is accessible by winter roads and fly-in. The ground cover is minimum of 3 feet, blanketing everywhere. Last year between Gillam and Kelsey the snow was about 8 feet deep. Lots of places you will jump off your sled and be up to your chest without touching ground. There are still a fair number of trails that don't get the groomer down them, but you do have to ride on the groomed trails to get out to these areas, as every trail leading away from town has been "claimed" by the snowmobile club. There are also a number of hydro line corridors that are great riding, as they are brushed every few years by hydro. The land in a lot of places is rolling muskeg and swamp, so it's like riding a snow-x track covered in about 3-4 feet of soft fluffy snow. The temperature stays well below zero all winter and the sun is at a low angle, so the snow doesn't build up a crust until late spring, it stays soft and light. Being in the bush, the wind on the ground is pretty low, so drifting doesn't really occur, with the exception of the bigger lakes. There are lots of ponds/small lakes that fill up with powder that are an absolute blast to ride. One of the biggest positives is that the population of town hovers around 1000 people, so there is very little traffic and you can always find new snow to lay tracks down in.

I have made up some maps on both Garmin's Canada Topo, as well as Google Earth. If you would like a copy, let me know. For next year I will have some printed up and laminated.

It's a hell of a long drive from Winnipeg, just about 1100km. The snow conditions are amazing and the people are really friendly. We just come across a little defensive here on HCS cause a lot of people figure they know what's best for us without knowing our situation, and are saying that if we don't pay into a system that really provides no benefit TO US, somehow everyone else suffers. I'm not really suprized that there's no one post on here from places like Island Lake, Tadoule, Churchill, etc because I'm sure they feel the same way as us, just don't want to get into fights. What about all of those communities where vehicles come in on planes or winter roads, and a snowmobile or quad is a mode of transportation, not a recreational toy. Should they all have to pay a Snopass fee on their registration even if the nearest snoman trail is 1000km away? These things aren't toys for everyone, all of you guys who keep chirping about freeloaders should be able to at least admit to that.

imma gonna rent a wrestling ring this summer and get all the people from hcs who have argued ever to duke it out! BYOB

Excellent post and thanks for your info I apperciate your views and also what your faced with in the north. I lived in Thompson for a number of years and there was a group of us who decided that we where going to make a run out to Kelsey Dam. We had made arrangements for gas and lodging ect there. Well like you stated about the deapth of the snow, belive me it was unbelieveable. At the time I was riding a long track Indy Deluxe and there was another long track ski-doo and we had to break trail for all of the other short track machines (8 short tracks in total) and even the the 8th machine was still getting stuck after all of the machines went through. We finnally had to make a decision if we should keep going and turn around and head back to Thompson as we were not sure how far we where really where from Kelsey. I'm glad we did turn around as we still had machines running out of fuel that we had to pull back or reteive later. When you would stop and get off the machine you had to reach up to the handle bars an pull yourself up onto the sled. Any way I would strongly suggest that this area be travelled with a log track if you wanted to enjoy the powder.

Any way one question I have is how do you insure your trails or the club if some one got hurt riding the trails that are being groomed? I know we had looked into seprate insurance and we could not afford it! EXPENSIVE. I just wouldn't want to see some one doing something that I think is great and have someone sue them or the club and they loose everything weather personal or club related? There are people out here that would do this and not think twice about making anyone involved look bad when they show up in court in a wheel chair.

So I take it from your info above that you did consider going the sno-man route? I know that they also have trail development funds that clubs can apply for that would probaly help you purchase signage ect. We purchase our signage through Mancor. The signage is reasonable and quality of them is very good as well. They must also taste pretty good as the porcupines and the elk/ bears like to chew on them as well LOL.

I know when our club here started we went a number of years and we really didn't enforce the sno-pass system as our theory was try getting buy in by attracting snowmobilers by showing them that we are enhancing the trail system and supplying warm up shacks ect and the trails where basicly ready for them to ride and no trees blocking the trails ect. We now have trappers ect buying sno-passes and they know they don't have to but they want to support thr club because they see what we have done to help them. They come out and help trap nuciance beavers and modify dams in our own special way LOL. We also have Eco- torisum groups as well as other users that were very doubtful about our intentions and or goals. We have since learned to work together and do we have disagreements at times, you bet but like anything else ther is usually a resolve some where in between what we want and what they want.

In closing I hear your concerns loud and clear and I know your concerns are more then what we may see in the south but I know of areas that went through some of the same issues. Maybe you could see some benifits by joining sno-man as there are more benifits then smooth trails ect. Wouldn't it be great to have trail system in the province that runs from north to south in our province. I would enjoy nothing more then taking a winter holiday (on a long track powder machine) and getting a group and riding to Churchill for a holiday and having meet guys from the various clubs all the way. Now to be that would be the ulltimate! And I would be more then happy to have the same done when you decided to ride this way.

Here are some pics from Swan and if you ever come this way I would be glad to show you around.

Yeah, I actually have the trail development forms sitting on my computer right now. I'm sure the bears would eat the signs, hell they eat the guy wire covers on all the hydro towers, why I don't know. I'm not going to go back through each and every one of my posts to make sure, but I'm pretty sure I have never said that I didn't acknowledge the work that was done and what Snoman can provide, I'm pretty sure that my position is that there are a LOT of people in the province that don't use the trail system, and others that were forced to without their consent and shouldn't have to pay a fee. By adding the fee onto registration, it would make it easier for clubs, I'm pretty sure that I have supported that position in the past. It's the people that have snowmobiles because they need them for their livelihood, or even to get to hunting grounds to help feed their family, whether they are registered trappers or not, or aboriginal or not, that will suffer from integration. What the vast majority of you guys see is that snowmobiles are toys that are strictly recreational, and if you can afford one, then stop being such a f*cking freeloader or cheapskate and buy a pass. That may be true in some of the areas down south where grid roads will take you within a mile of anywhere in the province. THAT IS NOT THE CASE IN ALL OF MANITOBA. Some people rely on snowmobiles to survive, pure and simple. Forcing everyone to pay a surcharge for a trail system that is to be used strictly for recreational purposes is WRONG. That's my position and always has been. There are also people that have personally hand-cut trails and maintained them for years, only to head out to their cabin or trapline one day and find that it's been groomed with a sign that says "Snopass required". If you think that the snowmobile associations own all trails in the province, and sweat over cutting and maintaining then, you are severely mistaken.

Our club is a part of Snoman, and I have held snopasses before in the past. I haven't this year (yet, I may buy one to do the run to Thompson in about a week), and the guy(s) who run the club don't give me a hard time. I've been compiling Trackstick info, submitting trail conditions to Snoman, rebuilt the groomer, operated it, made up maps, hung signs, etc etc... Apparently, the people who operate these clubs appreciate an actual helping hand a hell of a lot more than a cheque, from which they get to keep a small portion. They must be crazy. You guys should really write them letters to tell them to crack down on all the "freeloaders" that help out so much. Because if they got rid of those people and only accepted people that wrote a cheque, that money would somehow magically withdraw itself from the bank account, acquire a snowmobile and go out and maintain the trails.... Sorry, I just get a little bitter about the attitudes of a LOT of people who chirp on here...

I'm of the opinion that people will support a club/system when they see value in it. Personally, I am wanting to do the work that I do so that my wife can go out and enjoy the beautiful country that surrounds us, and so that we can take our 2 year old daughter with us with her bouncing around too badly and getting upset. That, to me, is worth the effort that I put in. As far as myself and ALL of the people that I ride with, none of them could care less if the trails were groomed, marked, staked or otherwise... We know our way around, have capable machines and enjoy crashing through the willows and playing in the powder. Snoman, even a groomer provides nothing of value to us. That's our position, and the people I ride with have been riding these trails and areas decades before the groomer came to town. I don't expect that these people should have to pay either.

If a person was to do all of their riding on the groomed trails, not even leaving the driveway until the groomer heads out and never venturing off trail at all, they should pay to support that system. There are those people even up here. I'm not sure that these people even realize what the trails are like before the groomer rattles down them filling in the holes and whatnot. That comes with exploration and experience, and hopefully these people will come to appreciate what the people who do that work put into it, and contribute accordingly. But to force everyone to pay whether they are benefitted by the system or not is essentially a dictatorship, and I will fight that until I run out of energy.

Sorry, end rant....

Kelsey is not that far from Thompson, about 80 km or less I think. The club guy was saying today that next Monday (I believe) we all might be heading into Thompson, and a bunch of people from Thompson will be making the ride from Thompson to Churchill on the Tuesday. Don't quote me on that, he mentioned it at the end of the day. We have as much snow now as we have had all winter, none has melted yet, and we've actually got a bunch of new powder over the last week or two. Walking through the bush, the snow is waist deep or more. If anyone is interested in seeing the what it's like up here, you can PM me and I can try to get you some contact information regarding the upcoming ride. The trail from Kelsey to Gillam has been groomed there and back once, and I think a few people from Thompson (who work at Kelsey) have ridden in every shift, so there should be a well packed trail all the way to Gillam. From Gillam, the rangers have made a couple of trips to Churchill (one to Myer Lake, almost to Churchill, and another ride to about 150 miles north of Churchill) so there should be a trail to follow. It would definitely be an adventure. North of Gillam you start to run into tundra, so it would be more of an expedition ride than a "play" ride, but neat as hell.

Just reading over the my reply, I just want to make sure that you (catman yama doo eater) know it's not directed at you. You seem to acknowledge that it's not a cut-and-dried issue of "if you have a snowmobile, you must use the trail system for recreation, so stop being such a whining complaining freeloader and pay up". It's a response to the collective of others on these threads that badmouth us for having opinions and a different set of circumstances than those who use the trails simply as a winter pasttime. I'm not going to mention any names, but its the ones that swear and get all pissed off and say that we can afford it so we should pay.

To those people I ask this: It winter time and it's just finished snowing a foot or two. You have a long driveway, but you have a snowblower and a good shovel, and you really don't mind going out and doing the work to clear the driveway. You get all dressed up, push the snowblower out of the garage and take a look at your freshly cleared driveway. A gentleman is standing at the street leaning against a plow truck and sees you walk out, so he walks up to meet you. He asks you if you appreciate how he cleared the snow off the driveway for you. You say yeah, but you were just heading out to do it yourself. He says, well, it's already done, that will be $150 please. You tell him that he should have asked you first whether or not you wanted him to. He tells you that everyone else on the street asked him to clear their driveways, so he figured "majority rules" and just went ahead and did it. You tell him you're not going to pay, you have your own snowblower and shovel and you were happy to do it yourself. He starts screaming and swearing at you telling you that you are a freeloading piece of sh*t and a cheapskate and basically runs off at the mouth at you. He tells you that it costs money to maintain his plow truck, and fuel prices keep going up, and that he is providing a valuable service that lots of people appreciate. You tell him that that's fine and you agree, but you didn't ask him to do the work, so you're not paying him. He then asks if you are going to drive your vehicle down the driveway onto the street. You say of course, you're not going to clear a path throught the back yard to get out to the street. So then he again tells you how he plowed your driveway for you and you have to pay him, or he will take you to court.

What are you going to do, happily pay this guy? Would you be thankful for the service that he provided, and give him some money because he needs to maintain his equipment and provide a valuable service that other people really appreciate? After all, you can afford the $150, so what's the big deal, it's not going to break you. Sure, it's your driveway, and you've always cleared and maintained it yourself, but this guy did do the work whether you asked him to or not.

Snoman is a private organization, don't forget that. My "tax" dollars shouldn't go to a private individual, should yours?

Again, not directed at you catman, any time you (or anyone else for that matter) wants to come on up, we'd be more than happy to show you around, have you over for supper, and if its a small enough group, possibly even give you a place to stay.

^ABSOLUTLEY

But on the other hand, maybe I can’t wait until the Saskatchewan International Raceway, and the Off-road Association get to slap a $40 fee onto the plate of every car and truck in the province to support their private tracks!

Let's see if I have the argument (rhetoric) right: “C’mon, tracks provide a much safer, controlled and more environmentally friendly/less sensitive place for vehicles to operate.” “It would be illegal to perform these activities anywhere else without landowner’s permission.” And my personal favorite “Compared to the thousands of dollars you paid for your car/truck, the stereo, the DVD player, the neon lights that pulse under your car to the beat of your latest Celine Dion album, what’s $40? Are you too cheap to support safe driving? You couldn’t possibly drive your car without speeding at least once a year!”

"lord, please forgive me and help the little pygmies down in...." Those of you that listen to Larry the Cable Guy will get the reference.

I'm not a politician or a shrink LOL!

Just kidding I know that you have brought up many great points that are not considered in the south and I hope that you don't feel that everyone South of the 54th are against you guys. I know that there are many riders that have read your posts and by doing this they may have a different take on the everyone pays. It is great to hear that you have a group there that is working on trail development as this will definately help northern torisium grow. I firmly belive that you guys could place a different spin into the snowmobile sport as you stated near the end of your last pargraph "more of an expedition then a ride". BC has the mountains and it is a different style of riding then the priaries but the north is remote and your long range adventures need to be planned out or it could become a matter of life and death if you make a mistake. But you know thats what makes it an adventure!

I guess in closing I would suggest that you contact your MLA's and let them know how you feel and bring up your points to them, stress that they need to take your concerns to parliment as there is a strong movement for intagration in the south.

But how do you really feel. Ha HA just kidding! Have a good one. Hey and were's some pics?

Just got my sled back together 2 days ago, and we've been working 12 hour days (spring maintenance) for the last week, with at least another week to go before a break. I hope to sneak out by the weekend for sure, I'll be sure to bring a camera.

Hey Catman................Next year....maybe we can make the trip from Thompson to Churchill for a ride??? You can drive my Ski-doo if your Cat can't make it!!!

Short Answer to the Original Question - $0 dollars. I think its a terrible idea.

Long Answer - If its gonna go, I hope it is well under normally priced snopass. Because it will apply to all. But being that they are now involving the government, I am sure the decision will be fully botched, and the price will be incorrectly set.

Just brainstorming, but if they want to make Snoman trails a part of Manitoba's infrastructure, why not apply a tiny tiny surcharge on all registered vehicles. Tractor Trailers, passenger vehicles, Light Duty Trucks, Corporate or private? It would be like 1 dollar each...

(Hi everyone. Yes I am a northerner)

Lets not go there because you couldn't stand the ride of the doo and you moved to a Yamaha? Now you want to cripple me too? LOL. I would love to make a trip like that as it would be a different adventure to say the least. But with you only being able to ride 50 miles a day I don't think I have enough holidays to make it to Churchill.

We should start a new string and get some Sno -mo pics from differet areas! Maybe a little more freindly topic LOL.

Pfffffffff. I can go 60 per day.....but I would need a good long soak in the hot tub afterwards to ease my weary bones.

if the snow passes get to that much guys just suck it up and pay it whats the big deal

60 miles you been working out! I'm impressed 10 miles more then last year LOL . Hard to find a hot tub in that area, you would have to join the polar bear club!

the big deal is that us non-trail riders dont want to pay for something we do not use. i'll buy one when i buy a trail sled.

I suggest that we just put in a long post tax on the MB forum of HCS and give the money to the clubs! 2 bucks for anything over 20 lines long. It would make a fortune because as long as the topic involves Integration these guys can't stop themselves...

This is the best post on this never-ending thread.

I ride a 97 440 cat and register it every year and also buy a trail pass. I ditch bang but maybe use a trail about 4 times a years so that is why I buy the pass as it is a law. We are missing the point the law said if you ride a trail you must have a pass. All the people not buying passes and go on a trail even once are breaking the law. Ask your self would you drive your car without registration or insurance or go into a provincal park with your car without buying a permit answer would be no so what makes riding a sled ant different. As for the gov. getting into it I think that would be wrong as the people try to run this sport is nolageable of the sport and the gov. is not and very wasteful of the tax dollars collected

ok so i read the first part, but got lazy. so this means, that a person like me, who never rides a trail, therefore does not buy a trail pass. will have to pay for a trail pass that is incorperated into my registration cost even though i don't ride a trail? my sled is enough to register as it is........did i interpret that right, or am i out to lunch?

nope that's the long and short of it. And if you disagree, you're a freeloader and think of no one else but yourself, and don't care about the sport of snowmobile or the economy in general. Or so I've been told (forcefully and over and over again). So no, you're not out to lunch.

Thats what I'm talkin about, what about the 10% of us that hate groomed trail and don't use them and just ride in gravel pits. You want us to pay, I don't think so. I treat this like my dirtbike I ride the pits or private tracks and nobody is bothered. I could care less if I ever see a groomer again!

so you've never rode your sled on any form of trail this year "BS" you must just ride farmers fields to get around or trailer it all the time i guess?