Att: Those interested in Fair Justice & Responsibility.

So if you lend your someone your car, he gets in an accident, then the owner of the car should face fines & jail time? Maybe it could be argued that the owner failed to provide training, supervision etc.
But, if it is the owners FIRST OFFENCE at being guilty of not being able to control another human and not making sure that another human does not make a human error, then they won't have to pay or serve the max.Now I know, if you lend your car, you are not the employer of the driver. Maybe you are the employer to the other party in the accident. Then, you didn't train your employee how to avoid an accident.

So, is a life of a paid worker different than the life of a friend?
Does Lori Hamilton actually believe that there is anything that the PSSD or Marilyn could have done to prevent the accident? Does she think that Marylin & the volunteers viewed Mike Ryman as an employee? Or was he a friend who inspired others to volunteer. Did he groom successfully for years without incident? If he wasn't qualified or knowledgeable about his craft, do we not think he would have had an incident prior to now? So the fact that he was modestly reimbursed by a non-profit group for his efforts and commitment to trail maintenance in Parry Sound, makes him a victim of irresponsible employers who recklessly put his life at risk by neglecting to provide him with proper supervision, training etc.
Why would Lori Hamilton be prosecuting a case unless she truly believed that those she is pursuing are at "significant" fault? She must be far more superior than the rest of us & feel that by doing something "significant" she is somehow ensuring that never again does a volunteer or a non-profit group put an employee's life at risk by not being able to have control over their actions at all times and by not being able to ensure that HUMAN ERROR is removed from each task that a paid volunteer completes.

The whole attitude of these "professionals" seems to be that they don't care who it is as long as someone pleads guilty so that they can post another conviction on their website. They think that by acknowledging that the incident was tragically and accident that occurred as a result of Mr. Ryman's human error, the will be viewed as the "laughing stock". It seems that Lori Hamilton or perhaps her office, does not want to be viewed as competent legal professionals who actively seek justice for those injured or killed as a result of reckless & irresponsible employers but instead the school yard bully who can't back down from a fight, even if there is no purpose in the battle just because he does not want to be seen as a coward or wimp.

Please, for the love of life, will someone get this situation under control? Does no one in that office have any discretion or sense of justice? Looks like the only ones involved in this case with any integrity are the defendants and Mr. Ryman's widow, bless their souls.

Perhaps if Ms Hamilton wants to do something SIGNIFICANT, she should start by pursing the TRUE EMPLOYER. That would be us, the permit holders. After all, we were the ones who PAID MONEY so that the trails could be created & maintained. The clubs and volunteers simply act in an administrative capacity on our behalf, distributing our funds appropriately so that we can selfishly enjoy our sport. If we didn't buy trail passes, Mr. Ryman would not have been paid to groom a trail for us. It was us that he was working for at the time of his death. Get your summons papers out Lori & get busy because if you want to send a SIGNIFICANT message, send it to us!

When is MY court date?



----- Original Message -----
From: Ellement
To: Tracy Ellement
Sent: Saturday, February 23, 2008 8:50 AM
Subject: PSSD latest news


Snowmobile district's court date delayed
North Star, News, Wednesday, February 20, 2008
by Sarah Bissonette | more by this writer
PARRY SOUND - The first appearance date for the Parry Sound Snowmobile District (PSSD) and its former president was moved back due to a scheduling error, said Crown prosecutor Lori Hamilton.

The PSSD and its past-president Marilyn Derks were initially summoned on Jan. 24 to court for Feb. 21, but were re-summoned shortly after to appear in court March. 4.

The snowmobile club and Ms Derks have been charged by the Ministry of Labour (MOL) under the Occupational Health and Safety Act for allegedly failing to provide health and safety guidelines in the 2007 death of groomer Michael Ryman. Mr. Ryman died after his groomer fell through the ice in early February of last year.

According to the PSSD's initial summons to court, it failed "as an employer, to provide information, instruction and supervision to a worker to protect the health and safety of a worker contrary to section 25 (2)(a) of the Occupation Health and Safety Act".

The club is charged with failing to provide Mr. Ryman with "information, instruction and/or supervision" in the use of the groomer he was driving; failing to provide Mr. Ryman with a competent supervisor; failing to have or maintain a procedure "to monitor the whereabouts and safety of a worker"; and, failing to have, or annually review, a written occupational health and safety policy and a program to implement the policy at the time of Mr. Ryman's death.

The change of date is because charges such as these aren't scheduled for hearings Feb. 21, said Ms Hamilton.

Check your grammar. Your sentence structure is weak.
You ask way to many questions without giving answers, leaving it open to be picked apart by those more knowledgeable then you on this topic.
Whatever point you were trying to make is lost in that mess.


2cents

Thank you for you input! It is enlightening as always!

I hope this shit goes away for PSSD and OFSC in general

Good luck Trixie most of us are behind Marylin and PSSD

If you don't like the input, don't ask for it!

I'm not sure on all the details with this and i'm not on the mol 's side at all but ,when money is being paid for a service ,The OHSA needs to be followed , and all involved need to be aware of it.I think prosecuting someone in this case is really grasping (imo) but otherwise ,i am a very strong supporter of the MOL ,because where i work i have to quote the green book on a regular basis....

From everything I know of Mr. Ryman, he could have written the book on groomer safety. The only thing I might be able to find fault with, would be his over confidence.

I asked for input about the article, the situation, the opinions of sledders & volunteers on the case.
Not for input on my single opinion.
I was ranting out of my own outrage. I wanted to know how others felt about the case, the comments from the attorney etc.
If someones input has a point, I will hear it, even if I don't agree.
If someone wants to blast me, that is too cheap & useless. My man tells me daily where to stick my opinion. I am used to it.
If someone wants to lay out their ideas about why it is or is not reasonable for a lawyer working on behalf of the MOL to make the comments in the article, I am willing to listen.
If we beat up on each other, what is the point?
If we share ideas, perspective & ideals, we can all gain a greater understanding about an issue that affects the province as a whole and the future of sleddin for generations to come.
If you disagree with me, say why.


To be clear, I am all for safety & responsability. Just not reckless prosecution out of arrogance & ego.

Just wanted to say I think the last few paragraphs are very strong. I Thought the "when is my court date" that you used to close the letter showed that sledders are all in this together.

I liked it.
Sort of like the reverse of a class action suit.

The MOL is charging the wrong person. They should charge every perrmit holder one at a time before they get to the executive.

That should slow them down a little.

The sentiments were correct, we are all in this together. Why should someone who volunteered for our benefit take the fall.

The prosecuter must not have a clue what it is like to volunteer for the good of the people otherwise this would not be happening.

exactly what I was thinking

I understand your outrage, but as is stands the MOL is correct. What you need to argue is the amount of the punishment for breaking the law. Second to that you need to lobby to have the law changed to allow a "certain" amount of paid work to be done without having as many laws (that may not be written correctly but you should get the point) eg. (1) What if you give the neighbours kid $5 to shovel your driveway. You are now the employer. What if he hurts his back? Should you have to provide proper training/ supervision/ etc.
(2) What if you hire a company to plow your driveway. You are again the employer, you need to check their insurance, WSIB, etc. This situation in D10 does not change existing laws it brings to light the fact that many small businesses (we can argue all day long, but I believe that as soon as the clubs got together and started a "grooming association" they became a business) have been lax.

Thanks Spiffy144! Good points. I'm not sure if the MOL is correct though. See, the facts that they are using to justify their charges are just not legitimate.
Those details will have to come out in court at this point. I am really ticked that investigators & prosecutors did not come to this conclusion.

Here is the game they are playing:
They lay charges against the Association & the individual who held the position of President at the time of the accident.
They force the defendants to retain lawyers.
Then they offer to allow for a reduced fine in return for a guilty plea.
As there is no insurance provision for defense costs or fines incurred as a result of charges under the OHSA, the defendants must weigh the cost of the fine offered in the deal with the cost of defending themselves in the event that they feel they are innocent.
The MOL will lay charges in any & all cases that they feel they stand a chance in getting convictions.
Legal defense costs can range from 25,000 to over 100,000 quite easily.
To add even more excitement, The prosecution will offer to drop the charges against the individual in return for a guilty plea from the association.
They literally hold the individual, in this case a volunteer, hostage.
Then the defendants will then look at the amount of legal cost they face, the trauma and stress of a trial, the fact that there is no guarantee that they will win the case outright etc.
Who wouldn't take the deal? Even if you fight the case & win, your legal cost could easily exceed the amount of the fine offered.
Any questions why the MOL has so many convictions?
Are these wins because the companies were truly negligent or just looking to keep costs down and get on with business?

Notice the facts of the case itself have little or no importance in any this. It is a game. The MOL plays it often & wins most of the time.
That is how the investigators & prosecutors justify their paychecks.

Anyone who believes that the club or Marilyn are responsible for the incident last year, needs to look at the facts. There is nothing that they could have done differently that would have prevented the accident. That is why I am so fired up. It could have been any club president facing these charges. Is this reasonable?

You are right, the laws need to be updated so that they can more accurately serve society.
This event makes that obvious.

Also, if you are and employer, call your insurance company & ask if they will cover the legal defense cost against charges laid by the Ministry of Labour under the Occupational Health & Safety Act. You will find that the company will pay if you are sued, not charged.
By the way, you cannot be sued as a result of a OHSA conviction. Anyone wishing financial compensation as a result of a workplace accident has to go to WSIB or apply to the Victims of Crime fund.

Makes you think twice about hiring new staff.

Point is

all volounteers should quit and shut the whole fucking thing down

I can't believe some of you think the groomer was forced to do anything

You guys are taking volounteers for granted as is MOL

They are bureaucrats they don't give a fuck who you are all they care about is the #s and loop holes

If this goes all the way and convictions/fines are handed out

say good bye to cheap $200 permits and good bye to many links in the OFSC system

Freeze, its easy for you to say SHUT THE WHOLE THING DOWN , is that because you don't have a sled to ride

True dat

you got me there

It is easy to say shut it down,,it is easy to shut it down, all we have to do as directors is resign,,,we did shut it down,,and we reopened it to fast,,we should have kept it closed longer so that maybe you people that paid 180 $ and business and maybe the govt would understand what is going on, believe it or not we pay for permits also, if the mol does what it says it is going to do,,you can pretty much rest assured that this will be the last of snowmobiling,,the Ofsc is the body that should be charged,,they are the leader,the people that are making huge saleries,they are the ones who make policy,,district 10 right now has a saftey manual in place,thru no help from the OFSC,and may be the only district in ontario that does,
questions I have, who has what to gain by fining the district and individuals,,? once an individual is fined,,other directors will resign, once the district is fined,it will be bankrupt, once other districts follow suit who will run this,,, Where the hell has the OFSC been in all this,,nice,,offering words of consoldation and hiding in the back ground, STEP UP TO THE PLATE AND FIX THIS !!! what do they have to gain if all directors resign,,well they have all the machinery and infrastruction in place,,,wonder if the OFSC is in bed with the govt and is planning to turn snowmobiling into a province run orginization,,with no more clubs involved,,because they all resigned,,, hmmmm,,,all I see is divide and concure,,,I see the devision,,,who is concuring ????

Trixi, PSSD has never answered the question if you are volunteer or a paid groomer operating service. IF you and the rest of PSSD are paid salary to run PSSD and MR. Ryman was being paid you are ultimately responsible for all safety. I volunteer for OFSC and I do not get paid and I am covered under the OFSC volunteer insurance plan. I understand coming out here for support, but PSSD step and and say that they are a Groomer Operating Service.

I am sure its just like the STP

we have 2 permanent paid employees and pay the groomers when they operate

The Pres,Vice etc are NOT paid positions those are all volounteer posistions while only the Administration are paid which are only 2

The OFSC is screwing the clubs as usual with their arrogance again lead by the over paid bureaucrats down in the Ivory Tower in Barrie and their HIGHLY paid legal team

The OFSC is not stupid here they are just arrogant and passing the ball unfortunetaly the ball will get lost and organized sledding will falter in the near future

Read the fine print!! You aint got shit!

Some of you guys dont realise THIS COULD BE THE END OF OFSC and organized trails in ontario. If they get charged who is gonna take the liability of volenteering to help the system out, this is HUGE. Furthermore, the ofsc most likely will need increased insurance for volenteers so good bye $200 permits.





I was just in that area this weekend at my cousins cottage who knew of the guy and all the others in the area. And apparently this fellow who passed away was acutally one of the founding members ( 1 of 2) of the carling trail blazer, he also had been grooming for almost 30 yrs. Prior to the accident. Furthermore the family of the groomer operator is apparently outraged over this whole thing as just as they progress with teh greiving process MOL brings this shit back. The wife herself said that he made a mistake plain and simple, he knew the are, he knew the ice, he knew he shouldnt of gone on the ice he made a mistake. They just want this to go away, its a real sad turn of events when stupid stuff like this happens with MOL people that probably dont know what the hell a groomer even is but according to some rule book somewhere its not acceptable..

True shame this is and for the sake of OFSC i really hope it doesnt go through.

Right on guys!
What to do?

I think that most of your posts about the trail permits is shitty.. but that was one the funniest things that i have read..lol

OK folks, how about a story! You are an avid snowmobiler and you move up north. You join your local snowmobile club because that is the thing to do. This club is also part of a Grooming Association. This means that all member clubs combine dollars and resources and work together for the betterment of snowmobiling. All Clubs, Associations and Districts must have an Executive consisting of President, Vice, Secretary and Treasurer as well as Directors. Please remember that no one ever wants these positions but someone has to step up to the position or you cease to operate according to the Corporations Act. The PSSD has an Office Administrator year round. For many years there has been some paid grooming operators as well as some volunteer operators. The idea of paid operators is to have some consistancy in the grooming as volunteer operators may actually also have a life outside of snowmobiling. Since the early years of snowmobiling the clubs choose and train who will be the operators. Most clubs in the province, including those in a grooming association have a Volunteer Trail Boss who overseas the grooming operations in their area. Now we come to the problem. An ACCIDENT occurs and a life is lost. The most seasoned paid operator in the organization made a tragic error. Not only was he a paid operator but he was also a long time friend to all. Now in steps the MOL. After almost one year they come back with charges against the Association and its Volunteer First Officer(President). How can this be? It was an accident, employee error. Now your life is turned upside down. You happened to have been the President of the Association at the time of the accident. You are the only individual named. Real lucky for the rest of the Executive. You soon find that you are talking more to your Lawyer than your own family. Give your heads a shake here folks. This is serious stuff.

I agree the family ( presidents ) looked like they have a nice lil couple cottage resort and a small engine shop, all of that coudl possibly be in jeopardy cause of the f*&*% MOL.

Lex, great post, summed it up very well! IMO I see no value in dragging this through the courts, the impact on our sport will be far reaching and very damaging. We must not be naiive enough to believe this will go away without impacting snowmobiling in Ontario. My thoughts go out to the Ryman and Dirks families, these are truly difficult times indeed.

Well said Lex

Whats the point of being an executive????

If only it puts you in harms way

All 99% of executives want is for everyone to have a fun and safe time

But is it worth it when you can get in t5he crap you guys got in and the OFSC abandons you and other clubs abandon you aswell

Well said.

I will be adding my name to those of other club presidents next month when I resign my position due to the appalling lack of information coming out of the OFSC Barrie office.

Those that know me from other sites know I spend way too much time defending the OFSC because most attacks are directed to very dedicated volunteers. However, this unfortunate accident has drawn attention to where we as volunteers stand when push comes to shove.
Thanks Paul, Ron and Bruce. Bruce is a volunteer as the rest if us and just happens to be the President of the OFSC. It would be nice to see some direction and information coming down the pipe. To see how you hide when the going gets tough shows what you're made of.
This still is a great organization with many great people involved in it. Your inaction sickens me.

If nobody steps forward and will take on the volunteer executive board positions next Tuesday, I will have to take the steps to shut the club down for the protection of those very dedicated volunteers. Maybe things will change and we can rebuild in the near future. Not going to be the case as things look right now.]

Wish us all luck.

Jeff

This is an ad we're running in the local paper this week.

If you live in or near Innerkip, Bright, Plattsville, Washington, Ontario areas, please consider attending this very important meeting.

PLATTSVILLE SNOWMOBILE CLUB is having an emergency meeting

Tuesday March 4th at 6:30 p.m.
At: Plattsville Public Library

EVERYONE WELCOME

This meeting is to determine the future of the club.
We will be discussing positions that will need to be filled in order for the club to continue.
Please plan to attend this very important meeting.

Jeff

If the OFSC stands by idly and does nothing to help with this issue, than that is truely pathetic on their part, it's a situation exactly like this where they should be stepping in and offering to help, in any way, in an effort preserve what we have, and disuade actions like this.

The OFSC is supposed to be the umbrella and the one who takes charge in regard to organized Ontario snowmobiling, without the clubs, we have nothing, so it would be very sad if the OFSC did NOTHING to assist the clubs.

I'm not going back to read it again, but perhaps the OFSC, in all their Risk Management seminars, could put together, or should put together a Groomer Operator educational handbook, and train the groomers, at the "Ivory Tower" in Barrie, not leave it in the hands of small clubs run by volunteers.

This is a bad situation for everyone involved - no question about that.

However - this situation is not new and it pertains to the volunteer board of director members for every organization that has paid employees. This is NOT something specific just to snowmobile clubs and it's volunteer BODs.

I have been a member of a volunteer BOD for over a decade now. I have passed through all the chairs and spent over 2 years as President. We have 4 full time paid staff. This action from the MOL will not cause me to resign my position. JMO

On the issue of the OFSC providing support for the PSSD and it's Board. Not sure on the details - other than to say I am sure not all the facts are being presented here.

What is it the clubs want the OFSC to do? Pay for the legal defence? Pay for any fines levied? - Just wondering.

As it would appear the MOL action is against the PSSD I am still looking for an answer to the question on the relationship between the PSSD, it's member clubs and the OFSC. I would assume the member clubs are a part of the OFSC, but I want to know if the PSSD is a member "club" of the OFSC. Do the PSSD BODs get a vote at the OFSC AGM in addition to each of it's member club casting a vote??

Nothing I have read shows any action by the MOL against one of the "Clubs" in the PSSD -just the PSSD itself.

The OFSC is involved to the capacity they can be and beyond, as the PSSD is a grooming association that is run as a business, much different then a volunteer based club. Yes other grooming associations who conduct day to day operations in the same manor are at jeopardy if an accident were to occur, if safety guidelines were not met. Sorry but I am taking offence here to the use of making claims that all volunteers are in the same boat as the PSSD. It is my understanding that if the PSSD had rehired a trail/grooming boss and not gone without, and he did his job this thread wouldn't exist, and those being charged wouldn't be at the mercy of the MOL. There is no need to further drive volunteers away from an already shrinking volunteer pool.


And yes the OFSC did encouraged many clubs (who weren't doing so well) to amalgamate there grooming recourses, but never did they say to do it with out proper guidelines and procedures in place if run as a business.


Not saying anyone did anything intentionally wrong, other then not follow proper guidelines when running a business. For the clubs and grooming associations that pay groomer operators and operations administrators, insure that proper guidelines and saftey procidures are set to not be subject to the same that those at the PSSD have.

Red Rocket and Nutter, why are we reading this on a public forum.
We should be getting full details on what clubs and associations need to do to protect their volunteers and paid staff alike from Barrie.
I'm president of both a District Board and for another week, a club.
Within our district we have 12 clubs that have formed an association many years ago.
13 clubs are outside that association but obviously part of the district still.
We would love to get some info from Barrie without us all having to run out to get legal advice at a great cost.
It would be nice to know where we stand and what's needed.

A friend of mine did talk to his lawyer.
He was asked, "Do you own a home, vehicles, sleds, anything? Well you're nuts if you don't get out intact while you still can."
That was his lawyers legal advice.

Part of this involves legislation needing to be changed to protect volunteers and even paid staff when they can show that there was no negligence on their part This is getting so rediculous. I'm almost at the stage of saying to hell with it all. I'll continue to buy my permit like everyone else but I'm only going to enjoy the fruits of everyone else's labour and just ride my sled.
Of course if too many people do that, there won't be any trails to ride in Ontario.

Good thing I bought a ditch banger sled.

That's my beef. No direction or information. ABSOLUTELY F$%^& NOTHING!

I hear ya Trailblazer, the reason we are reading this on a public forum is becasue those within the PSSD are posting on the matter, I'm not saying it wrong for them to post about it, but without being able to fully disclose all the details due to the privacy act, what is being said can and looks to be taken in the wrong context. And this is where I see thew harm being done.

As far as I know the OFSC is working on some thing but it will take time, with 240+ clubs all probably running things differently in respect to all safety concerns and day to day operations. Here in district 3 we have a meeting coming up with Eric Saunter Program Consultant & Volunteer Development for the OFSC, he will be addressing these concerns. Maybe speak with your dist governor and see if you guy's are doing the same. But I do not personaly know how or if this comes into play with contracted associations outside of the OFSC membership of clubs.



Here's an e-mail that went out to all the clubs within our district last week.

I think you just answered the question I asked previously.

Thank you!!!

PSSD is a member club of the OFSC with voting rights at AGM.

Nutter take your head out of the snowbank(don't take this the wrong way)

I know you are against the almagamation(sp?) and looks like you are taking shots at clubs that have chosen to help each other out with sharing services everytime you talk about PSSD\

Your attitude during all of this has been fuck em since they pay their groomers and PPSC does not

Do you honestly think that these clubs are in it for the $$$$

There are in it to better manage $$$ for sledders throughout Ontario

Is one way better then the other???

depends on area

But to sit back and say PSSD is not part of the OFSC therefore the OFSC should sit back like they are is assinine to say in the least

Not taking any shots Jay I'm trying to be as biasdas I can, I do support the call to support the PSSD, but I do not support the bashing of the OFSC when they are doing everything they legaly possibly can do to and more to help this situation, with out jepordizing permit dollars by using them for sometyhing they are not allocated to be used for. What I don't understand is we all have the power to make changes within the OFSC, as we the clubs are the OFSC, we aproved the by-laws and voted in the board !! Now if anyone is to blame for any wrong doing then it's each and every voting club within the OFSC for voting in the indaviduals whom some are not happy with.


This is just my opinion and feel free to nail me if don't agree ...... but don't some of you ever wonder why most anti OFSC clubs, districts and associations within the province have issues with permit sales and low volunteer count ?? could it be because no local riders wants to buy a permit or get involved with an organization that doesn't believe in its own self controlled umbrealla organization ??? some of the above mentioned should take a long hard look at bhow they are being percived by their permit buyers.

Lex I was under the impression that the right for associations to be voting member clubs of the OFSC was struck down at last years AGM, at least thats the way the vote was counted while I was stitting in the room ???

Nutter

The OFSC is in Bureaucrat/lawyer mode

aka say nothing that will screw ya

Which is good for their asses but does nothing for all other volounteers

Silence is killing us

Good thing we got a show in the fall that most clubs do NOT want

Associations pay membership fees so hence they are voting members. Perhaps you are thinking about the "Social Clubs".

Like I said there you go AGAIN taking shots at clubs that do form association to help them

Nope I was thinking of the associations, as fare as I remember thats the way the vote swung, no vote for associations due to over lapping votes within districts. My understanding was it would then force all districts to divide up into associations in order to get a fair vote ??? the reason my club voted no. Even though we are part of the CORSA Central Ontario Region Snowmobile Association. As far as I know we (CORSA) pay a small annuall fee to the OFSC for admin costs, but we do not have a vote. So I can't understand why the PSSD would have a vote and be a member club, when CORSA isn't ???

Question- then doesn't this association effectively give it's member clubs a duplicate vote on motions?? The clubs all get to vote and then the association (formed by those same clubs) get to vote again??

Also - if all the member clubs are truly functioning as a combined associations why not merge the clubs into the association and only have one legal entity? Why continue with all the individual clubs??

Read my last post Jay and you'll see that the club I belong to is also part of an association, and by the looks of things with our ever shrinking volunteer pool within the province, I may have no choice but to sit on the board after we loose a hand full of directiors who have served over 30 years on this board and would love nothing better then to retire this April.

The only shot I was taking was at all organizations that give the impression they are anti OFSC. I don't understand why you think I'm against associations ??? I'm only against those indaviduals who are in the drivers seat to make change, but instead just bitch about it on a public forum. This last statement has nothing to do with the PSSD but is only in referance to your response Jay.

(Edit)
I should add that CORSA is not a grooming association, it is only an association that was formed well before the OFSC, and is only kept current due to our district being so lage from east to west. So basicaly it's ony a think tank for adjoining clubs in western half of our district.

Opps dupe post

Ok, I am a bit confused about the voting thing.
I am pretty sure it really doesn't matter to the case of the MOL.

There are lots of opinions on the OFSC & I am sure for good reason.

One thing for sure, they haven't been doing anything to draw public attention to the issues being faced here.

They haven't even made a statement about what they Are or ARE NOT willing to do.

What's up with that?

Why can't the OFSC say:

"Hey! We are going to cover the legal cost of those accussed!
If there is guilt to be found because some policy wasn't written right or some documentaion is missing, then we, as the administrative body for the clubs will ensure that there is a consistant procedure put in place so that each organization can meet the requiremnets to the satisfaction of the MOL" (run on sentance, I know)

Or:

"We are too busy with other "things" to bother to make a statement"

Either way, show some bloody backbone for cryin out loud!


The MOL has the power to charge a corporation or an individual.

Then the accused must hire a lawyer & prove innocence at their own expense.

I bet at least half of those who have plead guilty to charges in the past year decided to do so because the cost & stress to fight the charge exceeded the fine the MOL was willing to accept.

Why cant the OFSC do anything,????,they sure dont hesitate to take permit money,,are they not " the voice of orginized snowmobiling"???,,and yess we have votes at the agm,Pssd is a Ofsc member,,and yess the OFSC is in charge of this mess,, funny how they weaseled out of all this mess,,,Step up and fix it !!I wonder if clubs should find thier own insurance, and run all on thier own,?? I have yet to see the ofsc put together a training manual and saftey procedures yet,,maybe we the pssd should sell them the one we had to write ?Just out of curiousity how many districts have a policey in writing? They (OFSC) sure dont hesitate to set signage guideliness which we all have had to conform to !! (which seem to change every 3 years) put em up take em down,, hmm would love to see the saleries they make at the Taj mahal,,I guess they will be looking for jobs soon,,,

Are they legally responsible to use permit money to fight these charges, with the PSSD being a contracted grooming service ??? If not then I would be right there to kick in some money to help with the defense, and I wouldn't hold it against anyone within the OFSC if they are not bound to pay this. I could only imagine if they are legally bound to pay this, I'm sure they would of already been cutting checks. This isn't about a moral obligation it's about by-laws a rules written and voted on by each and everyone of us who are club members, to only serve the best interest of the clubs and trails. As I and others have stated before, with out full disclosure of everything, which is understandable that cannot happen, the bashing is doing the PSSD, the OFSC and organized snowmobiling in Ontario in general more harm then good.


Freezerburnt had stated that they "the bureaucrats in Barrie" are protecting themselves, what are they protecting ?? they are not under fire, and neither are any of the 240+ clubs in the province under the OFSC umbrella. They would absolutely have zero to gain by not doing so if they were bound too, infact not legally being able to is a crutch they must now deal with on top of the bad press misrepresentation they are now receiving . Which undoubtbly will cause many of them to quit there jobs or be votetd out of their paid position, then we can all get ready to slam the next crew that walks in the door.


And I did see a press release on the OFSC website, now I'm not aware if they are or are not working with the PSSD on this or not, or even if they legally can due to the PSSD being a contracted grooming service ??? But if they were legally liable to do so financially I'm sure the defendants lawyer would have arraigned for this to happen.


What really gets me is how some of you don't think they would like to just open up the check book and be there in full 100% finacial support for the PSSD .... you folks have to give your head a shake and start remembering who those people are and how they got there, they would do it in a heart beat if they legaly could.

Seriously?

What is the point of the OFSC then?

Here's an idea, lets spend all kinds of $$$ asking people to "Go Snowmobiling!"
Then, when those who provide the trails are under attack, sit on our pocket books and say ???

Is this grooming ass. an employer? do they Pay people to groom? do clubs then in turn pay that ass. to groom the club trails? I really don't know the structure here thats why i ask.Nothing should be called a volunteer ass. if people are on the take (being finacially compensated) I am ready and wlling to volunteer my skills ,learn new skills to help keep the trails up in my area and the club continuing for years to come .And when i say volunteer ,i mean 0 compensationThat opens up a whole new can of worms (are some are just finding out) Unless the ofsc has hired somone on there behalf to employ groomers why should they pay legal? Please tell me what i'm missing here

If it is inappropriate to comment on the proceedings then I wish someone had of told the Crown Prosectutor that before she started commenting on the significant fines that will need to be handed out so that they don't look like " a laughing stock". This is from the North Star article Feb. 20/08