It's going round and round here Trixi ......... we all know very well why we need the OFSC, with out an umbrella organization we'd all be riding some pretty small tracts of land.


I'll bow out my opinion on this matter for the time being, and hope those who do volunteer and those who want to will not be put off by some of what has been stated in this thread, with out full disclosure.


If you already have a fund set up for Marilyn and the others being charged please pm me or post the info on how to go about getting some money into it. I was trying to make it up for the poker run but other comitiments got in the way. Good luck and if you need anything I can help with don't hesitate to ask me. Please think twice or three times when posting bashes against the OFSC, as you as and I asclub members have the power to change things, lets not make change harder to do by shooting ourselves in the foot, and at the same time driving away the much needed voluteers.

(Edit)
PS .... the GO Snowmobiling program is being paid for by the big four manufacturers, as they have finaly realized with out trails there product wouldn't sell very well.

I respect everyones thoughts here. I want to hear other's opnions even if I disagree. Healthy debate right?

My frustration isn't with sledders, volunteers or the OFSC.
Most of us regular sledder types don't understand the structure of the OFSC, clubs etc. Me included.
My issue is with the arrogance of our government & their representatives that claim to uphold the law.

Full disclosure (My version for what it is worth):

• There was a tragic accident.
• It was investigated by the MOL as the operator involved had been paid to groom a trail by a non-profit group.
• Charges were laid against the association & a volunteer.
• Why? Still trying to figure that out.
• Insurance does not cover defense.
• OFSC has not made any statement about who is responsible for legal costs.
• OFSC has made general comments to individuals about their support but no public statements or information has been made available about what everyone's responsabilities are in a case like this. They have not presented a course of action eg: Hire legal support skilled in dealing with these cases, offer consolidated information to clubs, organizations about the OHSA and how it applies to thier particular group and what things that the insurance policy covers and what it does not.
• Lawyer for prosecution makes dumb statements.

I would like to see the OFSC take a position of support. If they represent sledders, they represent me. I am disappointed that they have been so quiet.

ps:
manufactures paid for the campaign? That is a good thing! They have put allot on the line to back sleddin in Ontario. I am sure they are hoping for a positive outcome as well.

WHO THE FUCK PAYS FOR THE GROOMERS????????????

YES it the permit holders

So quit laying it on PSSD?

PSSD is just managing the PERMIT $$$$ FROM PERMIT HOLDERS SO PERMIT HOLDERS CAN HAVE TRAILS TO RIDE!!!!!!!!

WHAT IS SO FUCKING HARD TO UNDERSTAND NUTTER!!!!

PSSD MANAGES FUNDS SO ALL TRAISL IN CERTAIN SECTION OF THE PROVINCE recieve nearly equal attention rather than 1 poor club with shit trails vs a rich club with $$$ comiong out of there ass because they happen to be in an area where there are lots of permit holders vs the area with little

Who's laying anything on anyone Jay ??? Maybe you could show me where I slammed the PSSD alone ??? Untill there is full disclosure any comments on this are just hear say, so wouldn't you think it'd be unproductive on everyones behalf to slam either of the partys ???????? And possibly thin out the already ever shrinking volunteer pool and permit buyers ???


You can kid yourself all you want Jay, but if the OFSC board of directors could legally start writing the checks to help this matter they would in a heart beat. They don't want to see anyone possibly persecuted for this anymore then you or I, or anyone else for that matter. Hopefully the "Barrie Ivory Tower Syndrom" will one day stop and those who feel thats what it is actually is, can start running productive healty fun clubs that people want to be a part of.

Do you even know who's in Barrie, their history of volunteering and how they got there ???

i am in construction and i am surprised the ofsc was not named. unless they have some disconnection they appear to be the "supervising organizaion" much like a general contractor.
i dont know if this work falls under the construction regs but it seems similar. has anyone talked to the construction safty association of ontario. they are a good resorce and if you pay comp they would gladly talk to you. they probably would anyway.

Just finished talking with a few companies that have been recently convicted by the MOL.
WOW!
These are good people. They are fair employers with concern for safety & they really care about their staff.

Anyone that thinks the MOL acts with just cause and applies the law fairly should talk to some of these folks.

There needs to be a public investigation into the actions of this group!

The games, the harrasement, the lack of reason! It is amazing!

If you employ or supervise someone, you had better find out what liability you face. Recent changes to the laws give the MOL the power to destroy you if they want to. Think you are safe because you follow the rules? Think again!
Call your MPP, your insurance company & the ministry of labour. Ask what obligations you have as an employer or supervisor. Ask what protection you have in the event that someone you employ makes a mistake and there is an accident. Ask what process is involved if there is a general inspection and you are missing some piece of documentation.
This is out of control. It is not about safety, it is about money. You'll see.

There is alot more to the story than what is posted on the MOL website.

I am well aware of the implications of being a super/employer and thats exactly what prvoked my previous questions on this gromming ass. If people want to take a 100% volunteer thing and turn it into an employment thing you will have alot more to deal with.Why can't the clubs ,the OFSC and the ass. just keep it simple?

It'd be great if it could be that way, but try finding a team of worthy groomer operators that will stay out most of the night for a 8 to 12 hour shift, three to four nights a week, including weekends .......... for free.

I know I will get some heat for this but (not taking sides), I think everyone is missing the real issue here.. In this country there are clearly written laws that govern all types of organizations and businesses. The fact that someone signs up for a position without a clear understanding of their liability is not the fault of the law. Are there any doucments one has to sign to become an executive? What do they say? If this issue goes to court a Judge will look to the laws that are in place to make a ruling, they are already there, they have always been there.. When it comes to legal issues documents and the law are what counts, nothing else matters.

Permit holders have nothing to do with this.. That is like saying a business owner found at fault for something similar is not responsible, it is all of the people who paid for his service who are responsible - not going to happen.

The best that can come out of this is..

1. Settlement with MOL to minimize legal costs and stress on people involved
2. OFSC and/or individual clubs organizations need to hire a reputable legal firm to fully investigate and report on liabilities to the parties in executive positions and make sure those people are well aware of what they are getting themselves into, look at ways to change the structure to minimize liability and increase safety in the future.

Trying to fight this will be very costly and I don't see how anyone can win. The law has been broken and ignorance will be no excuse.

Are we missing the fact that the MOL charges people with "Breaking the LAW" not forcing people to work unsafely! Don't like the law, that is fine.... lobby to change it. Don’t know the law.... (not acceptable for an officer of a corporation)

The charges are, in part, for not having adequate follow up as to the whereabouts of each employee. In my recent chat to Bill Park he mentioned to me that also there was no documented proof of direction being given to the groomer operators. I am certain that all clubs and officers of these clubs are surely reviewing their policy and procedures furiously to ensure they don't end up in the same boat. It is tragic that it came to a person losing their life to force this ball rolling.

May the loss of My Ryman’s life be not in vein but be remembered that he was solely responsible for safer operations of all snowmobilers, volunteers and employee's involved in this great sport!

http://www.parrysound.com/press/1213368514/

PSSD pleads guilty.

Wow, pretty quiet on this subject....Figured there would be more talk about it??

Glad for all invloved that it is over with...

interesting thread

Personally, I think they got away pretty easy considering what happened here.. The MOL just made an example of them for all the other clubs to get their shit together and realize the need to have some policies and procedures in place. I would be pretty happy with the outcome if I were in their shoes... Could have been MUCH worse..

-R.

Maybe so, but what this case has really done is bring to light some problems with the current laws that exist. If an entire provincial organization with well over 250 seperate incorporated entities was not aware of the legislation and the ramifications that it can have on us all than there has been a serious lack of communication on the governments behalf in informing the directors of not for profit corporations of the burden being placed on them. You can say ignorance is no excuse, but far too many pople were misinformed or not informed of this legislation. Being the president of one of these not for profit corporations I can tell you that you pour your heart and soul into making it run and in many instances it is not an easy task. The last thing any of our volunteers have time for is complying with all of the necessary paperwork needed to cover your ass should such a unfortunate incident occur. I also know that many of the so called employees of the OFSC's snowmobile clubs and grooming associations are more or less a paid volunteer. It's more of an honorarium than a wage in most instances. Many run their own businesses or are retired and the small wages they collect more or less just cover their costs to volunteer. Would the victim in this incident really want to see the Parry Sound Snowmobile Organization being fined? I know if it was me that died I sure wouldn't want to see my club or any of our volunteers being dragged through the BS that the group in Parry Sound has endured. Will this case change the way the OFSC operates? Yes, many organizations ourselves included have already started in implemeting a plan. Will it cause more volunteer burnout and hurt our ability to deliver a quality product. Yes it certainly will. In Pary Sounds case they have $30,000 less to put on the trail. They'll have to make cuts somewhere to pay for that. My guess is the groomer does a little less grooming next season. In our clubs case the policies already existed which should be enough, but in todays litigious society we now need more and more paperwork to prove that we are following the law. So you have someone that volunteers their time to help out and instead of thanking them when they show up to help, you have to shove a pile of paperwork in front of their face and have the hard lined attitude that they are signing or not helping with the days work. Did you know that you have to have regular sign offs from all of your volunteers that has them signing that they have took training and agree to follow safe work practices? Did you know that every club needs to have a standard operating policy in writing to explain the proper way to complete every task a volunteer or employee may undertake. That's right a policy to fuel the groomer, a policy to install a sign post, a policy to run a welder, a policy to drive a half ton to get parts, a policy to run a barbecue at the clubs barbecue, a policy to run a chain saw, a policy to sweep the garage floor at the clubs groomer shed, a policy to change a light bulb, a policy to operate a computer, a policy to work at a trade show booth, a policy to operate carpentry tools to build an outhouse, etc, etc, etc. When does it end? It's not fair to myself as a director of the organization. I'm not making any money at this and the law needs to recognize this. I can see the need for the law and all of the paperwork in large businesses, but it isn't reasonable in a small business or non-profit organization with limited resources. Safety should be a top priority of everyone's, but creating a mile long paper trail to prove you have done so is a pain in the ass and shouldn't be necessary. Lawyers are ruining our scoiety and the government is giving them the laws to do so.

The trickle down effect of this is going to be huge and will extend well outside of snowmobiling. My local car club holds a number of events each and every season, we will be looking into the liability issue of the folks that volunteer to run em and decide from there if it's prudent to move forward or cancel.

Polaris1234,

Don't get me wrong.. I am not saying I agree with it, but I am just commenting on it from a legal perspective. Having been screwed myself by legal issues in the past I know that it doesn't matter what is right or wrong, or what someone's intentions were.. Documents speak in court.

I don't know that there is much that can undo the laws the govern these organizations. Like I said a few months ago, these laws have always been there.. Often times everything runs along fine until something happens, then the shit hits the fan.. It will be interesting to see how this, the price of gas and the wild weather will effect the sport over the next few years.. Rough times ahead for sure.. I wonder now if OFSC trails will still be around when my kids are old enough to ride them, only time will tell..

Writing your MPP and MP can help. Let them know you don't agree with the outcome of this case and the precedent it has set. Doing nothing won't help anything. True it does seem that we are faced with a bigger challenge every year in keeping not for profits running, but at the end of the day I still stronlgy believe that the citizens of our province should control the laws that we are governed by. Health and safety laws are a good thing to a certain extent, but they have too much power at the current time in my opinion.

boy is this ever going to have a ripple effect on clubs in Ontario

In what sense??
In that they will have to have written policies and procedures that need to be adhered to?
Not bashing or being a smart ass, just curious...