My son, John800, had issues last year with his Edge XCR conversion. Suspected overcooling due to lack of thermostat, so this summer rigged it up with t-stat. Also added Flannery trail ported cyl's with HSP heads. It WAS running better and better, figured a little fine tuning and all would be good. He's up riding right now and the thing runs strong one time, then a pig the next, even just hours apart. The RPM pulls 8,200 one time, then only 7,800 later, and the EGT's run at 1,000F one time, then back to 1,150F, same day, an hour later, with 430 MJ, in gutted '01 airbox with Tempaflow. Water temp is running on the cold side if anything. We had checked cyl H2O temps before and all were within 10 to 15 degrees after running on glare ice. He is so frustrated, he's not sure what to try, or even bother trying anything.
Any ideas as to WTF is going on?
What to try next?
He's tried less helix and stiffer Green EPI driven spring so far.

Loose the Tempaflow

mine does the same thing. Sometimes it will spin 8500 then the next run 7800. I have a tempaflow in it too. I did notice that if I run it at 3/4 throttle the rpms would run up to 8200 then when you push her wide open it would slow down to 7700. Then the next run a minute apart when you hit the throttle it would go to 8100 then to 8500 at the end of the run. I've tried weights, springs,helixs and now its sitting in the garage apart. I going to take off the tempaflow after I check everything again.

I too am having problems with low rpm but mine is consistantly that way. It has been suggested to me to add a thermostat like you did. I will do it but was wondering what you found out as to why it would help. What does too cool do to the sled. As far as your problem goes I have seen on this site people have had bad stators.

If the cooler egts follow the lower rpms I agree with Roger and lose the tempaflow.

Sometimes too many hi-tech gadgets just don't get the job done correctly.. Keep it simple.. suck Squeeze Bang Blow

Jet Conventionally..

He had similar issues before the Tempaflow was added, not sure if he unhooked it again though. He was also checking plug and pistons, before jetting down to 430's from 440's. I just have a hunch it is something else, maybe a bad stator as mentioned earlier? What are symtoms people have seen fron the stator going south? It sounds as though this thing won't even get out of it's own way now. He checked the valves too and noticed some scuffing on the new pistons, not sign of detonation though. The thing ran 115 MPH (GPS) with 440 MJ @ zero degrees F, and now it's a fricken' turd.

Check ves valve bellows, two of mine ripped and it acted the way you are talking.Hope this helps!!!

Was the piston scuff there before or after dropping to 430's? Has a compression check been done since the change, in jetting and performance?

Not sure if he has checked it since rebuild. It does not pull over as it would if you lost any compression, but we'll check that to make sure after he gets back. He started from fatter than last season, just to be safe for "break in", then get down to dialing it in. It just fails to respond as expected, so he left it alone for a few days of riding, and it is so inconsistant, he is stumped as to what to try, or change next. When it runs 1,150 on EGT and pulls 8,200 RPM the thing pulls real hard, but with no changes, same conditions, next time you get on it, it is a dud. He said it runs fine at lower speeds, part throttle running. I hope what he saw through the ves opening was just graphal coating coming off the piston, they were new SPI's. Hell, I've always thought these tripples were rock solid performers, not this intermitent BS.

Not sure I understand why you spend thousands on a motor and mods, and then put SPI pistons in the motor??? SPI pistons are heavier then stock, do not disapate heat as well, and the most important thing, the rings are far less quality then OEM. Here are things I would check first:

ELIMINATE ONE @ A Time
1. Compression and a leak down test. SPI Piston rings loose tension quickly when hot!!!

2. Engine timing and ground

3 GET rid of the temp-a-flow and quit trying to jet the motor on the edge. These motors do not like to run lean, on the trail, they want fuel and "ESPECIALLY with porting and head mods. They make no torque when lean and torque is what you want. Almost every one we have done runs around the 460-470 jetting area to be safe for trail conditions

4 CLUTCH Bushings and Spring. Converter shoes and bushings! If the motor is running good at lower speeds, MOST likely your issue may not be in the motor. It can be a clutch that is binding, bushings out on converter, clutch misalignment, ect. DO NOT ALWAYS BLAME THE ENGINE

5. Could be a bearing issue on the drive axle, chaincase, jackshaft or track isssue as well. How does the sled roll when he lets off the throttle and coasts??

6 Stator would be the last thing I would rule out. They NOMALLY either work or do not work. Not saying its impossible ,but you have to many other things to consider first,before you replace a stator,especially if the engine runs good at lower speeds

7. The rave valves should not be an issue at the rpm you are talking about unless the bellows are bad and the valve is hanging into the exhaust port. This will cause Detonation also!!

8. Always remenber this. When DETONATION is occuring the egt will go down first not up. You say its dropping to 1050?
Put some fuel in it and I think your problems might be solved


""The RPM pulls 8,200 one time, then only 7,800 later, and the EGT's run at 1,000F one time, then back to 1,150F, same day, an hour later, with 430 MJ, in gutted '01 airbox with Tempaflow. Water temp is running on the cold side if anything. ""

Also turn the motor rpm up to 84-8500 once its making power again !!

Thanks for the suggestions. We had that discussion about SPI's, the rings mainly. He may have used OEM rings on the top groove, not sure. The chassis and clutches have all just been gone through, new bushings where needed, and all the bearings in suspension and drive were replaced, will check again, it does "roll" well.
Even before this change to ported cylinders, it had tuning issues, never ran well all the time (the tempa flow was an effort to help that). He's not trying to jet on the edge, the plugs were very dark, and pistons had plenty of wash @ transfers, with 440 MJ @ zero degrees F and low EGT to match (totally gutted edge/slp airbox). When you say to run 460, 470 jetting, is that an XCR box or gutted edge box? I am aware of the det causing lower temp, we did pull a plug to see if there was any sign of det, and it just looked fat, but sure are not experts at this. We may try the increased MJ and see what it does. The target RPM for this set-up has been debated on these and I appreciate your input. He was shooting for 8,300RPM with maybe a bit more after shifting out.
Thanks,
Randy

Randy
I have one question here that I thought about. The air tubes on the carbs how are they routed and hooked up to the airbox?? This is critical, and if they are bent,kinked or not hooked up thats your problem!!! Been there many times with the XCR. It ralley effects the jetting and fuel draw, even on our race motors we put fitting's in our filters!!

We have dynoed many of these combo's and the best torque we find is the target rpm max of 8500 with HTG trail pipes. Also are you running a stock XCR can?? if SO have you drilled the holes in the pipe outlet bigger?? If not you need to!

I checked the compression, good thing I have 3 gauges, they read 15 PSI from 1 to the next. It reads the same on all 3 holes on the ported/HotSeat Heads combo, and the same as the stock cyl/heads on the other one (135 to 145 on the best gauge, 120 to 130 PSI on the others).
Funny you mention the air tubes, we talked about the tempaflow, 3 into 1 vent tube and to go back to 3 vent tubes when we unhook the tempa flow.
So 8,400 to 8,500 rpm (with hot pipes, I assume?) would be best with HTG pipes and trail port? It seamed to pull way stronger when we got it to run 8,300 (after it was running 8,500 to 8,600). Yes, stock can with 2 holes drilled in it.
For reference, this goes from smoking an 800 twin, to getting smoked, in the same day , same tank of gas, everything the same, even 10 minutes apart, he's just sick of it.
Did you see the other post about low temp on PTO cyl causeing similar issues, that may be it, PTO is coldest in all throttle settings and we have not staggered the jetting yet. I will die if that is all it is.
Thanks for the help, hope we can figure it out.

A loose or pinched stator wire would do it. Mine did the same thing about a month ago, drove me nuts. I was changing clutch setups, looking for exhaust leaks, etc. The second time through double checking everything I found a hole in one of the exhaust bellows. Check the easy stuff first. Make sure your gas tank vent line isn't getting pinched and vaporlocking it. So the EGT's are consistant across all 3 cylinders?

To answer a few questions:
The exhaust valves are good holes are clear bellows ect
the temp gauge was staying pegged cold while I was riding in the UP on loose trails and once in a while it was coming up a little I when that would happen the egts were consistant across all three when it would drop the pto would come up a little I think there is something going on with it not cooling evenly lost year I had it overcooling and had the pto rising FAST and way up and the wash was strange and the plug was solid jet black and dry absolutly NO white or brown then that problem magically went away in different conditions the next time I rode, but at this piont I am thinking it is something to do with the water temp as both times it ran this way was when it was over cooling in powder. I found and fixed several other problems this summer that needed to be fixed and I thought I had it nailed down.

Pro champ, I guess I have never heard of anyone having bad luck with the spi pistons (and they were free)but at this point if thats the problem I might part this thing out while I have it apart I am sick of chasing gremlins and I could handle getting a different sled anyway but I am not going that far without one more try. Also I was actually thinking the other way on jetting if thats the issue which I think is not the case that after looking at wash and plugs that it was a size or two on the fat side

Next step after I get the sled home tomorow:
I will test everything I can bench test but not completely rule out what passes (temp sensor, timing, stat in a pot of water, stator ohm test) and check basics If this checks out good I will run it without the tempa flow and go from there.

Get rid of the tempaflow, and yes go back to the 3 vent tubes
Depending on your exact setting 8300 may very well be where it makes its best torque. Could be your tach is off or the porting is such that it wants to run at that rpm the best. Whatever do not go over 8500 as they fall off the torque at that rpm.

IN the real world the PTO is always the coldest. It gets the air from the back of the clutch and will always run cooler. We stagger jet almost every motor. DO not try and change the coolant passage to change this as you will cause the head operating temp to go up if you restrict the water flow to that cyl.. Good luck I hope its that easy for you

John 800
I have never seen a trail motor be this critical on water temp, if it is. Have you put a mechanical water temp guage on it to see exactly where the water temp is running?? Best world case is at 120* thats where we set the coolant tower on the dyno. Even the improver motors I have built (223 hp) are not this critical with water temp. Jetting thought is another. We were field testing and I kept going leaner on fuel and motor would be inconsistant just like this one. We even had too richen the pilot jet to get it to leave right. Motor sounded pig fat but boy it likes the fuel. We were at 420's with it also and ended up going up and up and as we did the motor really came to life. AS we were reading the piston wash it didnt start to make power until the tops of the piston crown were actually wet!! What plugs are you running adn gap?? Go to NGK BR9EIX gapped at .024 if you can

Pro Champ
I have a polaris temp gauge that does not have numbers but when I was running it at the lake I had my temp gun out to make sure the gauge was working and to get an idea of the range of the gauge and after someone else on here came up with the thoeory of the uneven cooling I checked the water jackets on each head like he asked for and I found that the pto ran about 15F cooler than the other two and if the temp gauge is reading 100f does that mean the pto is 85f? This may not be causing the performance problems I have but I still dont like it and I did scuff that piston now the new one is a little scuffed already. I am not stuck on this being the problem but its something I want to look into as I think the thermostat may have stuck open.
Thats interesting what you said about the jetting I will have to keep that in mind. I am running br9es plugs I did check the gaps but I dont recall where I set them. What is the difference between these and the eix plugs?

Port timing and pipe length along with compression, ignition timing and jetting which affects pipe temps will determine the best rpm. So far in testing stock and mildly ported 800 XCR engines, I've seen that they don't like rich jetting or high rpms. The dyno will not dictate exactly what the engine wants in the field.

The problem I see is that many on this forum have other things done to their sleds like aggressive porting, overbored carbs, exhaust cans/modified cans, vents located in different locations, airboxes gutted, underhood air intakes, reworked CDI boxes, Tempa Flow, etc, etc. These things can drastically affect jetting requirements.

You must be cautious listening to advice on jetting and peak rpms unless all factors are the same. Only through extensive field testing will you find the best setup.

The Edge conversion seems to experience the majority of these strange behaviors versus the GenII versions. Pay close attention to what's different between the sleds.

Incidently, erratic engine performance can often be traced to a sticking/binding primary or secondary or even chassis drivetrain problems.

I will have to get the thing home and check what everyone mentioned thank you all for the help I will keep you posted...

So true Phil, my Gen2 ported, bored carbs, stock cut heads, stock pipes & can, runs 500 main jets, and on cold days that's borderline lean.


Don

Phil

Exactly what I told him in my first post. I suspected also that his problems may not be in the engine.
I do disagree with you Phil on jetting. There is NO need to jet a trail machine on the ragged edge,unless you want to experiance this type of problem. Each motor is different and does need to be field tested thats for sure.

How much air is going over the pipes,will also change jetting requirements as well. Very few trail riders have the ability to tune with extensive field testing for there best setup,thats another reason, I never suggest ragged edge jetting
I also agree that when taking tuning advice on the internet,you make sure you are comparing apples to apples

John 800
If you engine water temp is truly running that cold, that could be your problem. Its a problem rarely seen.

Maybe I should have just asked if anyone has a really strong running XCR Edge 800ves tripple conversion?
Alot have not gotten them to run well on the trail, did anyone get a set up like this dialed in?
It would just be John's luck to "solve" the over cooling problem, by putting in the 1 out a thousand bad thermostats.
ProChamp, when you say "tops of the piston crown were actually wet", how much carbon was left on the piston in this set up, and what EGT's did you see? On twins, this usually leads to all carbon being washed off, and they do still run OK. Not sure on the tripples, just that for the 3rd year, this one is still disapointing,,, the owner. We've swapped drivens, re tuned both clutches, and shimmed, rechecked, add/removed wt, swapped springs in the drive clutch. All our tach's are calibrated, may recheck this one again, hell why not?
Phil running 400's , Don running 500's, maybe throw 440-450-440 in and see what happens? Maybe EGT will go up to where it will run?
Thanks again for all the ideas, gets the wheels spinning and out a rut!!!
Cheer up John, ain't this fun? Smile!

Which heads you running?

Very close to no carbon left not clean but black and wet looking EGT's were around 1150, but dont always go by that because probe location can be different. Pull the pipe off and look at the inside of the pipe right at the flange and see how the burn is there! Also depending on what type of fuel and oil is he using, the color will change! Triple or twin its each cylinder on there own for jetting and burn. The BR9EIX plug is a fine wire electrode Iridum core, much better heat then the BR9ES plug

Hot seat heads for pump gas dont have the part no but I think there is only one choice

PM krazyzx9 about those heads.

I had the HSP heads on my flannery motor. Compression down around 120ish cold. Had Don(xcr1250) cut stock heads 9.5 thousandths. Throttle response greatly improved over hsp heads. Compression cold is 138ish which is 2 lbs less than what stock is. I ended up burning center cylinder down due to lean jetting. Had a 460 in there. I am going up from there. Two weeks ago in Michigan it was or looked conservative. No wide open runs as when I burned it down. Here is a pic of my cylinder

Since I've wrapped up my 2 build issue "bad coil broken wire" and black coolant issue, and changed out the WP, even when the coolant was turnin black it never experienced what John's runnin in to, and it's keepin me smiling.. although we can't compare these conversions, atleast 2 factors 1 I built mine around using the XCR Airbox and also dont run a T Stat, for comparrison my Edge-XCR is jetted 450-460-450 Stock Carbs "Not Bored" My 2000 XCR is 440-450-440. Compression in the XCR is @ 150 PSI Per Hole the Edge-XCR is 138 per hole.

I have not inspected since this past weekend, but last trail ride 220 miles wash plugs and egts are great for trail riden, so far this Edge-xcr Build seems to be runnin better than a Time X, The edge is the last chassis I would think to hear about over cooling. I think that most others that aren't having issue are also not running T-Stats even the 1000 cc Edge triples.

I am also still gear pretty short at 23/40's, Season is getting shorter.. Think it's stayin this way for now..

I have the heat gun packed for this weekend and I will measure everything I can.. I should also be able to compare heat against my stock ported 2000 xcr with HTG pipes n Heads. as long as I have some in the group ridin it..

IMPO The Polaris Coolant Gauge is useless, well maybe a bit better than the Idiot Light.. But temp #'s are definitely where it's at..
Digatron AV III even the kit that sabercat700 has goin is a better way to watch coolant temp. Even with the Temp GUN it's measuring metal temps on the outside of the motor.. regardless it's close..

MPO is XCR Motors Like Fuel give it what it likes..

G/L John hope ya figure it out..

Hell ya come this far.. Belly up for a New Stator get it outa the way.. jet the F'er UP give it fuel till it don't like it and then back off a bit.. make sure ya coil connections are good, and inspect the wires "not da plug wires" goin into the coils for breaks,, I am pretty sure the coil wires are solid and are fairly brittle and can break easily if they had any kind of tight bending anytime in there life.

Krazyzx9,
So your saying with porting and HSP head it had 120 PSI vs 138 with stock head that Don cut?
Which were you useing when it popped the piston? With those jets I assume you have the stock XCR air box?
I don't remember if I saved the numbers on the CC's from when we measured the domes, but I know they were close to the same in volume(HSP were just a little less volume), must have "CRS" now days, I need to keep it written done, and remember where I put it, damn...
The compression on the ported/HSP was 145 on all 3, and the stock cyl/heads on the other sled is 135 to 145.
Roger,
Thanks for the info. What RPM you pulling now?
.
Does anyone remember the company that rewound the stator for someone? I've heard this is actually more reliable than the stock stator. Might be worth the trouble, rule 1 more thing out.
Thanks,
Randy

Randy: you are correct. Around 120-122 with hot seat heads. Stock heads cut 9.5 thousandths its up aroudn 138 with same gage. You can see when looking at both heads that the HSP heads have way more volume. Doug F himself told me he like the lower compression hotseat heads for crappy trail gas. That is why he recommends them for reliability. I was using the cut stock heads when she went. It was 3 degrees out when she popped. I do have the stock air box and thougt the jetting would be good as many run a bit leaner than what I have. I do have my stator advanced a bit when Don and I put the motor together. Don's setup is more aggressive than mine and he has had no issues. I am running dynoport pipes and silencer where Don is running stock pipes. Dont know if that matters.

That's true B.C., my porting is wilder than yours, plus the stock heads are cut .011" and the carbs are bored to 41.3 MM, stator has been bumped a couple degrees,... I have many miles on it this season with zero problems, hung onto it on a lake for 3 miles in Bayfield county a week ago, I think if it was going to go, it would have went then.


Don

on the bar i was seein 8450 max rpm.. with almond round n 10-64's 50/34 an silver/bule

Here are three places that redo stators

I agree with the posts on the HSP heads. Not any of the heads they sell work out to the compression rating that they post. There 16-1 heads or 1 point less. I buy them and recut them to our own spec and clearance!!


http://www.rmstator.com/index.php/Snowmobi...tor_repair/1291


http://www.rickystator.com/pages/ATV_Dirtbike_Stators.html


http://www.jetskisolutions.com/

Don: "hung onto it on a lake for 3 miles in Bayfield county a week ago"
That's what I like to hear! So, with your gearing, wound tight in about 800 feet, how fast were you going after 3 miles?
John's was doing 115 GPS, with speedo 1/4" past 120 (1,000 ft to 1,500 ft run or so) before this crap started, he needs a good WFO run like that to put the smile back on his mug!
Pro-champ, I thought these were HSP 12:1 heads, and the volume very close to stock domes, what have you found them to be, higher compression than stock, or lower? They only showed 1 option on the web site before, and I don't see any listed now.
Anyway, after checking compression compared to a stocker, I am thinking that may not be the issue, although something to look into for best performance later.
This is where we will probably start:
1) test/change Thermostat.
2) Check oil pump setting again, see if it may be sticking, like it did once before.
3) Empty fuel and drain carbs, fresh premium w/o ethynol, Drop needles .020" more and get EGT up to normal in mid range. MPG is terrible right now too. Test on the same strip, back to back: Tempa flow Vs 3 vent tubes w/ T-flow unhooked, then leave unhooked.
4) drop 2 grams from wts and leave driven alone for now.
5) Detune his buddies '01 800 twin that John dialed in before they left, so even if XCR is off a bit, John will still beat him, LMAO. (John, mess with your sled more, and less with your buddies, and by the way, you think that .030" you took out of the spider before all this may have anything to do with it??? wasn't that something you picked up from Phil?)
Don't give up yet John!

HSP Heads on Flannery motors I would expect Doug to set them up for the cylinders he ports.

We have found consistantly that the HSP heads are off. It depends how you measure them We measue the CC on the engine and they are consistant less then what they have marked on them. His 12-1 heads are right at 10.68-1 installed ratio. I never use a comp guage for anything accept to varify compression readings. I have 5 guages and they all read different although my SNAP On Guage is the most accurate. I can give you the formula for this if you dont have them

COMPRESSION RATIO FORMULA


Your only checking one head and they should all be the same! First we need to know what 1 cylinder = and just because they call it a 800 it may be smaller or bigger so now you need to check true size. 3.1416 x 1/2 the bore x 1/2 the bore x stroke divide by 1000 = 1-cyl volume. Lets put some numbers in there for you. 3.1416 x 36 x 36 x 65 / 1000 = 264.6 .
3-cyls x 264.6 = 793.9 not quite an 800.
264.6 + 30.8 divide by 30.8 = 9.59 to 1

Squish clearance, band width, and angle play a significant role here too. Even with identical measured compression ratio.

I agree 100% Phil; To many people forget or dont consider that as well, Thats really where all the torque is found anyway

These domes came with the Flannert ported jugs, not sure if he re-cut them or not.
Thanks for the info, I have always left head machining to someone else, too many variables for me to know what to do, way over my head.
I also agree on the comp testers, I had 2 that read identical before, and they were 15 PSI apart when I checked this sled the other day. Just good for a referance, especially if you can compare another sled with the same gauge.

Be cautious with more than one compression tester. They can be be designed differently (longer threads for example, different lengths/volumes between check valves), leak at the connections, check valve or at the release valve. To verify they work correctly, you can attach them in parallel to an adjustable air source and compare them.

Always check with WOT, room temps (if possible) and the same number of pulls on all cyls. Remove all spark plugs, kill the ignition. My BIL called in a panic a couple days ago, saying that after he'd checked compression inside, then again outside after a run, he lost 15 psi. I told him to wait till it cooled and bring it back inside. Compression mysteriously came back.

You can also verify varying compression/cylinder leakage with a leakdown gauge.

Phil I think you misunderstood him he was testing the same cyl with the different gauges to see how consistant the gauges were and they(as we found out a while ago) vary alot

No, I was just pointing out John, that for comparison of two gauges, you must have exactly the same conditions and other factors.
Phil