I'm going to be heading to the next Snobusters meeting in order to try and bring ideas to the club about promoting safety and keeping right on the trails. For anybody that's been following the "head-on" thread, you're probably already aware of the problem, but for those who are just tuning in, there is a major problem in the woodford area (and probably beyond) with people failing to stay on their own side of the trail.

Most of the time the police presence in the Woodford area consists of locals or staties checking registration and insurance at well known intersections. While they certainly may catch a few "newbies" this way, they're not having an impact on the vast majority of the agressive riders.

I'd like to get a collection of ideas from members (especially those who ride Woodford) on what can be done to help solve this problem with riders not staying right. I think as a collective whole we can agree that speed enforcement isn't what we're after, so I'd love to hear about ideas aimed at finding and ticketing those who don't "keep right" without bringing speed into it.

For example, one idea that I have is to have the police stake out a particular corner for an hour or two at a time, with one watching the corner and another one farther down the trail to ticket the offender. There are a LOT of corners in woodford, and by having them choose random locations, once word gets out it'll force riders to ride more cautiously on a consistant basis.

If there are people from other areas who have seen effective methods used in your area, I'd love to hear about those as well.

In Maine they put cones down the center of the trail on corners then sit and watch the corner. Its simple, You knock over a cone, you get a ticket!!

going to the meeting is a great idea!

we need to find out who's decides when the groomers go out.

he's either in florida watching the weatherman on tv or isn't the brightest bulb on the tree.

in addition to local leo and sp we have fish and game and national forrest.

there not here to make the trails safer there here to collect (steal) money.

it's no different than the street. it has NOTHING to do with safety it's all about the money.

there always at the best places they can be to hand out tickets for no reg, no insurance card and no tma.

they're nothing more than a highwayman


highwayman |?h??w?m?n| noun ( pl. -men) historical a man, typically on horseback, who held up travelers at gunpoint in order to rob them.

hey Jim , did you notice that this seems to be mostly predominant in the woodford area?
it's just that there are too many sleds riding the same trail.....i have been all over the state riding and have never seen anything like it is here in woodford.
maybe the club or clubs should put up some reminder signs to keep right? maybe someone should give a little speech on saturday at the hotdog roast?
winters that have snow everywhere put a lot less strain on the woodford area, as it is now, it is the closest place for lot's of riders to go.
ALL WE NEED IS SOME COMMON SENSE

i have nothing against law enforcement but, i like to go and ride and have a good time, not get hassled at every other intersection to be check'd for paperwork. you wouldn't tollerate this for one minute if they tried that on the highway! the law is already on the mountain in too much force as i see it, three groups of two all out at the same time. so maybe they should do some riding and see what's going on, instead of just sitting around at the intersections and actualy patrol like in real life?

While I'm certainly not opposed to signs and speeches, I honestly can't imagine them being effective. Usually it's a bunch of young guys (God, listen to me.. "young guys".. I sound like I'm 80) riding too agressively. Those guys aren't going to see a sign and decide, "yeah, that sign is right. I should slow down!" Maybe sticking a few wadded up sleds along the trails for all to see would have a temporary effect, but ultimately the fear of getting a ticket is about the only thing that's going to do the job.

I like the cone idea. Whether or not our trails are wide enough for that to work may be another issue, but it's definately one to bring up.

Perhaps a cone with a "keep right" sign at the entrance to some of the worst corners put out every saturday and sunday would be effective too, though that would require having somebody manually put them out and then retrieve them each saturday and sunday.

Keep the ideas coming guys!

I have heard, but never seen, that cones and lines painted in the snow are sometimes used in the NEK for KEEP RIGHT enforcement.

I've seen it in Maine... orange lines painted down the middle in the corner and a cone or two as well. F&G sitting there just watching and waiting for a ski to go over it. They usually do it on fairly wide corners so there's no excuse for going over the middle. Lots of places on Trail 7 to do it and Woodford is a prime location to do a little experiment with it. Could and should be done on blind hills too.

IMO - tickets should only be handed out for the worst offenders who obviously don't care about staying right and have more than half their sled in the opposite "lane". Otherwise a warning would probably do the trick.

years ago when i use to ride at woodford the VSP would paint an orange stripe down the middle of a turn, over the line,ticket, failure to drive right . the visual impact was a great deterent for those out of control!
-sea

Justforme says "we need to find out who's decides when the groomers go out.

he's either in florida watching the weatherman on tv or isn't the brightest bulb on the tree."


you can't be serious? The Snobusters have four groomers and a number of VOLUNTEER operators that VOLUNTEER their time to groom the trails. They groom them prior to Saturday, Saturday night and then again on Sunday. When snow is coming they groom more frequently. Remember that VAST doesn't reimburse a club every time a groomer goes out, so if a groomer heads out for the third or fourth time in a week it comes out of the clubs money, so to hear you whine about when groomers go out and who decides makes me sick. These volunteers live in Southern Vermont just like you do! Wake up or maybe you should ride somewhere else.

Now that we have that resolved, let's try to stay on topic.

Something has to be done but I know allot of you realize that most of the corners in woodford are one lined anyways because of people not staying on the right side of the turn. Next time on airport road just count how many corners end up this way. It seems that all the left hand corners I am riding on top of the berm that is created. I personally think that the groomer operators are not leveling the corners with the front blade and just leaving them with a banked turn. I am not bashing the operators in any way and appreciate all they do and think they do an overall great job except for the corners that have been built up with snow from all the sleds.

ok be sick and start a new topic if you want to continue.

only one of us is whining and it isn't me!

the groomers and all the VOLUNTEERs doo a great job!

but like you the guy who decides when there going to groom is clueless.

they should be grooming relative to current weather conditions not relative to when the masses show up.

so no you don't go and groom slush and mud when is warm out and it's going to be warm and raining for the next week.

but if you get some warm weather and then really cold weather your groom before it freezes to cement not after when you cant doo anything with it.

the corners are all groomed level it's the 100's sleds that cut the corner. it doesn't take long tow remove all the snow in a corner

usually there cut so much your riding more than a foot above the trail when keeping to the right.

imho:the airport needs to be groomed the way it used to be, a lot wider.

and it's time they started dooing it again.

anyone remember when branch pond had a divider of snow between up and down or when all the bigger rises where groomed that way too?

I guarantee that the groomers and Scott know a lot more that you do about it. Since you live so close to Woodford and seem to know so much, why don't you start volunteering your time? Regarding your pathetic statement about "grooming relative to current weather conditions not relative to when the masses show up," if the groomers operated with this logic the trails might be a mess on Saturday and Sunday morning, and then this board would be filled with comment from people like yourself saying "why the hell didn't hey groom last night, the trails had snowbanks two feet high."
The long and short of it is that you seem unhappy with when trails are groomed, so show up to the next snobusters meeting and tell Scott you want to help

If you guys are going to keep bitching/praising the grooming, can you start your own thread please? I'm hell-bent on keeping this thread on track so that we can produce useful results.

gotcha. Sorry, I just felt compelled to call attention to his stupidity. I'm done now.

Not sure how VT works, but in NH, good luck. The fish cops are reactive unless they are running a speed trap. They do the majority of enforcement here and only a few real police agencies patrol the trails. Usually on a Homeland Security grant. But they are more interested in the detail pay than actual enforcement unless they spot an unregistered vehicle.

I wouldnt rely too much on any LE agency to help keep the trails safe. Most will say they would like to but dont have the manpower or funding to run proactive enforcement. They key here is educating the riders and hope they care enough to ride safe. If not for themsleves, then for the others sharing the trail with them.

Agreed. Let's try to keep this on track. A good point has been made though. At the next Snobusters meeting, it would be interesting to hear if the groomers always try to make the corners as wide (and flat) as possible or is it just too much extra work and they're more concerned with just getting more done in one trip. How a trail is groomed can have an impact on rider safety, especially in the corners. Many times I have personally seen groomers running no where near the edge of a trail and wondering why. Trying to protect the equipment maybe???

I remember when Trail 7 between Somerset Rd and Kelly Stand had a berm in the middle almost the entire way, even in the corners. I haven't seen that in a while.

BTW - I rode in the Island Pond area a couple weekends back and I must say, I had a lot more close calls there on those narrow, winding trails than I EVER have in riding Woodford in 12 years!

i've riden about 100,000 miles in many states and on many different trails....the best option i have seen for this is a ONE WAY TRAIL anyone who ever rode TRAIL #14 across the U.P. from BIGBAY to L'ANSE when it was one way with 4 foot high walls can back me up on this......it was the sweetest safest trail i ever rode on....the DNR made em take it down.....who knows why......not long after taking it down DWAYNE FISH DIED IN A GROVE OF TREES at the intersection of #14 and the #310 loop (RIP DWAYNE......we miss ya)......when it was up that would of never happened.....when it was up i had never seen or heard of an accident on that trail.....now there are several a year.....somebody bitched i guess about something meaningless IMO

one way with 4 foot high walls ?

im not sure i get it? like a fence? i wouldnt like riding along a fence for 30 miles i can tell u that much!

Exactly we don't need an "Island Pond Teddy" roaming the Woodford trails!

One way trails will never work in the Woodford area due to the limited amount of trails (one main corridor running North/South) and I'm really not sure about how well they work elsewhere. Imagine the consequences of someone heading in the wrong direction by mistake. Plus, I imagine there'd be a lot of tree and groomer related accidents as a result of people going too fast knowing they didn't have to worry about someone coming the other way.

When the Corridor system was created, it was done so we could visit the neighboring towns and counties. The present trail system is huge, for a small State, and should be everything we need to enjoy ourselves.
We need to ask ourselves why we snowmobile. If the only reason is to get from one place to the next, in record time, then there is a problem.
Building a wider straighter trail will lead to faster speeds and more stupidity. If the idiots can go faster, they will, and when they hit something or someone, and they will, it'll only cause more damage/injury.
I'd rather get hit by someone doing 40 than 60.
This whole issue needs to be drilled into the brain and I'm not sure how to make it stick.
As I was writing this, the news was on and there was an automobile triple fatality in Middlebury. It happens in all facets of life. A terrible mistake and people die. It's no different than driving beyond the conditions on a sled. I want to be able to enjoy my ride too. Weekends are made for everyone, not just the trail bullies.
I would like to see a slowpoke weekend. Get every rider that thinks the trails are being overrun by speedsters out on the trail and go no faster than 35 mph. The racers would have to ride within reason. Instead of spending more time and money on a bigger system, just take back what we have. The nice riders outnumber the idiots. We just need to let them know that it's our trail too. If they don't like riding at a reasonable pace, then get off the trails and join the racing circuit. It's a great sport and we all need to figure out how to play together.

I agree with some of the points Nailset, but I would think from a safety point of view, straighter trails would improve our line of sight and keep the head on collisions down. There is also the grooming upkeep that twists and turns impose on a trail. Drags don't like to turn 90 degrees.

I like to ride at a pace that is quick but responsible. Tight and twisty needs a tender throttle while straight and wide should test the limits of the sled. I respect the riding styles and abilities of all the riders on the trail. With over 6000 miles of trails in Vermont, there is room enough for different riding types.

What each rider needs to take with them on the trail is a dose of common sense. They should ride each inch of trail as if every sled on earth is right around the corner. And never lose respect for other riders. If I ride fast and come up behind you, I should lay back until it is safe to pass and you know I am passing. If you see me come up behind you at pace that is quicker, wait to find a safe place to pass and pull to the right and wave me by. I will never push you past your limits or your comfort zone. Riders should never hold someone back to control their speed.

Riding is something we all have in common. Like red blood, some of us have different types. Not unlike our riding styles.

I hope someday we can meet and share some experiences- maybe even a ride!

well said nailset47. If getting from point A to point B in the quickest time possible is your goal, then there is a problem I think

Absolutely!!
I really enjoy a casual cruise on a nice winding trail. I don't want I-89 in the woods. I don't hit the popular places on the weekends. I do fear the obvious. I ride for the enjoyment and not the animal thrill. My passenger means everything to me and won't put her in jeopardy. I'm lucky to live in Chittenden County. The conditions aren't as good as the NEK, but we can enjoy the weekend riding.
We have excellent law enforcement in the County. They patrol the trails and will ride with a group. It's great PR and helps if there's a problem.
If we respect each others' space, we can all enjoy the sport. No matter what we do, not everyone will be happy. We just need to keep trying. One smile at a time.
Thanks

Okay, you've made every HCS member very envious. That's postcard material.
Absolutely AWESOME!!!!!

awesome pic. Unfortunately the berm is what we need in the woods when visibility around corners is a problem! Where was the pic taken?

I agree there is a major problem with riders not staying on their side of the trail, and it's not just in the corners overall there seems to be a total lack of respect for anyone else that is on the trails. They will also pass you without slowing up and pepper you with chunks of ice that really pisses me off!! but why do they ride like this are they just stupid? do they realize that there are familys out there with young children? do they drive their cars and trucks like this? this is what gives snowmobiling such a bad name, sorry to say but they will need to enforce this better to to stop all the IDIOTS.

I would def agree that blind coners are def an serious issue esp when someone is on your side of the trail. More and more problems every year with this. More signs should be posted on problem corners or orange cones etc. We all know there is nothing u can do about the a..holes that are on your side of the trail. People need to be educated on proper rider ethics and not to ride like manics. There is a trail and a place for that type of ridding, but it is uncalled for on the tight in town trails. The other thing we don't need either is more police on the trails, as it is know when your ridding with your family and u need to stop at every other trail junction to stop and show all your paper work it can become quite a hassel with 5 or more people. I like to see the trooper and F&G on the trails but come on guys it can be overkill at times and it's taking the fun out of the sport.

Woodford is by far the worst spot of "nearmisses" as far as I am conserned. If I ride there in the week.........no issues to speak of. If you try to ride on Saturday or Sunday.........for get it, it is like playing Russian Roullet. Too many "weekend warriors". These are the people that make it so dangerous. They have too powerfull of sled and no F&C@I%G clue what "in control" is or "trail ethic". I ride as hard and fast as anybody on the trail, but there are 2 things that seperate me from them. For 1 my sled is dialed in, studded w/ good carbide (& c&A Pro skis) and the suspension is adjusted so I know what the sled is going to do & that it will go exactly where I put it (on the right side of the trail). For 2 I ride within my capabilities and the conditions, if the riding is sweet I light the wick and let her fly balls to the wall. If there is a little ice or washed out corners or anything else that may present an issue I ride with common sense and knock it down a notch for my safety and the safety of others. This is just my personal feeling. But anyone who thinks that todays sleds are "toys" needs a kick in the ass, they are serious machines and need to be treated as such. So basically "remove your head from your ass and use it, so that the sport can be fun for all of us"

i think the painted orange line in the corner with one on spot and another farther ahead to stop them IF THEY CROSS THE LINE is the best that i've heard and personally seen and it work's also was out last tuesday at the junction of 7 and 7a on airport road at glastenbury loop turn on a personal ride with a friend and two cop's were out we had seen them twice already they pull up and relize who it was and we were talking for about 5 minute's when we hear a sled rippin and i mean rippen then there he was and then gone went thruogh the intersection at atleast 60 and the chase was on the rider came to a stop at the parking area on airport road and the law caught up to him there and he admitted to them it was him and now he has a $371 fine for not stopping and driving dangeously through an intersection there are to many who don't think i will try and be there for the meeting also jim85iroc

It's great to see that you guys are trying to solve a very serious problem. I hope that it works. If it's like most meetings, the people you'll be talking to, will be the good guys. If you can get law enforcement to attend, it'll help to have them hear ideas, and may have some of their own. After all, they are here to protect us from ourselves.
You guys deserve a lot of credit for pushing this issue.
It's time that the responsible riders take control of the trails that we work so hard to maintain.
Good Luck.

Gaspe'. Photo was taken by Daytripper.

This doesn`t have anything to do w/police but the most effective way of keeping people in their lane on corners that I have ever seen was back in the day in Groton State Forest when Ralph Hatch (RIP) built his "two lane" grooming drags. With one pass it would groom the trail and leave a little 8" X 8" divider in the center. It was a great visual way to see the lanes and it would actually help hold the sled on the right hand turns. Obviously at the end of a busy day the berm would be obliterated but the next grooming would put it back. These days the drag would have to be built (ideally) with a gate at the rear that opens and closes so the berm could be made only on the corners that needed it as the berm was a pita on the straits.

ok....let me explain.....the wall is from the SNOW DEPTH.....NOT ANY BUILT BARRIER....so some years or months it was 2 foot tall....then snow....then after grooming the walls would be 4 feet tall if that much more snow fell.....sometimes they were 6 feet tall and hard to get out of the tunnel trail.....but this affect has many pluses yer not thinking of.......1 is if its deep and the walls are high it very hard for the average sledder to GO OFF TRAIL.....and alot of places don't want you to go off trail.....so the club would love that.....then as the oneway got settled in with 1,000 of sled traffic it would be like a nascar track.....the outter wall on a curve woulds start to have a tilt like an oval track......then they would cut the inside low and have the other lane higher.....it was so cool on turns.....then it NEVER GOT MOGULS.....as all sleds traveled in the same direction......so grooming is easier......then if you went to fast on the trail and was gonna miss a turn the outside lane wall would keep you IN THE TRAIL.....kinda like a slot car....then....NO HAND SIGNALS....everyone had 2 hands on the bars.....SAFER....you want me to go on??????? cuase there are many more benefits to a ONE WAY.......think people.....think......its hard to tell even club members this or get them to actually THINK about the benefits......so its not a fence.....cause if you got balls.....you slide yer sled sideways in the trail and jump the wall to get out.....then upon returning to the trail.....you stop at edge or wall and are ABOVE EVERYTHING and can see clearly both ways......so reentering the trail is even safer......am i gettin through to anyone.....and i don't want to here about land or space......cause you just make it 2 groomers wide with a 3 foot wide wall/berm of snow between them.....whats not to understand?????????????????????


and SCOTTER MAGAVIN has many pictures of that trail for you all to see.....hopefully he reads this and post some......i used to have some but they got erased

so what does everyone think? still mullin over the good things i said or did ya move on now? no response eh? good or bad is otay, thats why were discussin it

In an IDEAL world, maybe all snowmobile trails would be "one way only" which would eliminate the "stay right" requirement. Like I said before, though, one-ways create other issues.

I see you're from the mid-West. The trail system in Vermont (run by VAST) is unlike any other trail system in the country, for many reasons. Most of the trails are on private land and it's tough enough to get landowners to agree to put a 4-8 foot wide trail across their property, never mind two of them (or a really wide one). I have yet to see a one-way trail in the state and I think it might have something to do with the way the local clubs are reimbursed for their grooming. I'm not sure but I think groomers are paid for miles of trails groomed based on grooming only in one direction on a given trail. One ways would require them to get paid to groom both trails and that could become a major problem financially. Like I said, I'm not sure about this but it would interesting to see if that's how it works.

You should see some of the trails in the state. Many of them are so narrow, when two sleds pass each other from different directions, they each have to stick their right ski off the trail just to get by. Imagine meeting another sled in a blind corner at 20-35 MPH on one of these trails, never mind if one of the sleds is "flying"! It happens all the time in Vermont.

Thinking abou this, and after riding woodford and other areas, I agree we dont wantt a " Teddy" out on the trails, but run some enforcement, hand out WRITTEN WARNINGS, and make it safer before somebody is KILLED.

The groomer operators in Woodford must of read this topic because today all the trails were groomed extra wide and the corners were all flat with no banks or someone with some influence made a few calls. They are going out again tonight to groom. I am sure tomorrow it will be a zoo with the hot dog roast going on so be alert. I also heard that the cops are aware of the complaints and will be hanging out around the corners so stay RIGHT!

I spent today grooming and I paid attention to the tracks the sleds made that ran on the trails between passes, and the "Stay Right" campaign is going to be a tough sell. Every sled that used the trail rode down the middle of the trail, and cut every corner. Yes, EVERY SLED!!!! Our trails aren't as busy as the NEK, but it still shows a major problem. Judging by the track the sleds were leaving, they weren't blasting down the trail, but riding at a normal pace. They were taking the easiest route. It's the development of very bad driving habits. I don't think they even realize what they are doing. It takes a concious effort to drive smartly and that's not happening. It's not a certain group, it's everyone. Then when you add high speed to the equation, well.... Someone will be killed. Who's at fault?
Drive safe and Stay Right.

I think a nice Mad Max creation will fit the bill. A machine with a some sort of large ram/plow blade/spike impaling device mounted to the front... mind you, not a groomer with flashing amber lights and high visibilty...a deep dark creation. Stay on your side and you'll have no issues... cross that line too many times and sooner or later you will meet it.

well, rode over a hundred miles today in the woodford area and with the hot dog roast at the airport and all the sleds around i must say, NO NEAR MISSES today!!
thanks to the groomers for doing a little extra width and maybe riders are getting the hint to stay right, the corners on 71 had distinct two grooves going through them! (which i think is the first time i've ever seen that up there) thanks to all the riders who made the day enjoyable.