This was a sad weekend for the sport. A young fellow lost his chance to be an adult and enjoy a full life.
It's not up to us to be judgemental, but we do need to examine our driving habits.
Now is the time to try to do some brainstorming for ideas on prevention and safe driving habits.
It's time to look at our trails and come up with a plan for construction of a safer system.
There are places where a blind hill has a 2 lane trail separated by a median. It's not mandated. Should it wherever room permits? Maybe a trails safety construction seminar. How to build a trail based on safety standards. When we build a trail we put it where the landowner tells us to, but if we had a set plan and approached the landowner in a different way, who knows....
We know speed and loss of control are serious issues, but until a speed limit is eslablished, statewide, law enforcement can only do so much. A speed limit might be fine in a lot of areas, but I still get an itchy trigger finger when I see an open field. I'd hate to lose the chance for a good blast across that field.
We are all members of VAST, so we all have a responsibility to preserve the system that we helped establish and maintain. If we don't find a way to bring ourselves back to a reasonable level of operation, the trails will be closed or governed to an extent that Yellowstone enjoys.
It's up to us.
Any ideas?

speed limit throughout VT is 45

CampD... Unless something changes this year... the speedlimit is actually 35 on all Vermont trails...

it is sad and i think the only way we can realy prevent it from happening again is to ride with caution! extreme caution and use your heads out there.
we don't need anymore rules thrust upon our sport. accidents happen and it's sad to hear about them or see them so let's all do our best in preventing them and have a good time out there.

There is no speed limit on VAST trails, EXCEPT on State and Federal land (35MPH )and any area that is mandated by a landowner. A landowner can set the speed limit as he deems, and that must be posted.
According to state regulations, the only limits on nonposted trails are the reasonable and prudent operation of the snowmobile. That is determined by law enforcement, and depends on trail conditions, traffic, time of day, etc.
It's not really clear and depends on the events at that moment.

How do we get this message to sink in to the brain of the snocross wannabe?
More laws won't solve it. Stupidity never reads the safety manual or the book of common sense. It usually takes a visit to a funeral parlor, or if lucky, the hospital to open the eyes and the mind.
Maybe fresh ideas will enighten us.

if your going 10mph, 20, mph, 100 mph....


if you DON'T STAY TO THE RIGHT, Expect shit to happen, bottom line.

..and even if you are right, Expect the other person not to be.

I don't think speed limits are the answer, Like CampD says there's already is a speed limit. More Police presence means more costs, but nothing slows down any speeding vehicle more than a radar cop. Especially if there sneaky parking a 1/2 mile apart from each other.

Are one way trails possible? Is there any other place we could use for an example for one way's? Maybe pick a County and start a one way trail system, one trail at a time?

It seems we only hear of the worse fatal accidents, wonder in Vt how many accidents are reported every year non fatal and fatal. Its a sad subject and I tell ya it seems most of these accidents involve friends and or family hitting each other.

A few years back (6) one of my friends died on a sled right around the corner. His first year riding, missed a turn during a snow storm and ended up in a deep culvert. The 3 sleds behind him went right by, didn't even notice. There's no blame here, just facts. Inexperience and going to fast for the conditions. They kinda go hand and hand. I still think mandatory safety course's every 3 years stressing common sense would help.

How do you teach common sense thats the question. Do it like a DUI or hunting / fishing illegally if your caught take your equipment away. Christ imagine loosing your sled cause your caught speeding.

Agreed! I hate government telling us what we can and cannot do but something needs to be done to make the trails safer! Speed does not have to kill! Its so easy to ride in control and stay right........but why are so many out of control in the center or left side of the trail? More patrols might help or could piss off a lot of riders like they do up state NY! The only answer I have is a simple no brain-er..................STAY RIGHT FOR SAFTEY! Vast passed a new law that 9 year old's can operate a machine in the company of an adult...............You would have to be Nuts to put your kid on a sled!!! Maybe Vast should have some sort of "safety summit"???

NOPE, That fact is, some people run from the police. How much do you think that would increase if you knew there was a a chance to have your 5K-15K investment taken? Unfortunately, sleds and trails and driving on the roads are very similar, do you think everyone obeys the laws? HELL NO. That will never change. I think whenever possible, divided trails would be the best solution. Will it solve everything, NO WAY. Can they be placed everywhere, NO WAY, but I know that I feel so much safer knowing that I don't have to worry about the schmuck coming at me.

I was 10 when I first started riding. My parents had a second home in southern VT. We were there almost every weekend summer and winter. I do not recall back then we had these issues. Reasons? Well the fastest sled was probably fan cooled or free air 440 with suspension that was nothing like today. Your typical sleds were 295, 300, 340, 399, 440cc, if you had something larger than a fan cooled or free air 440 it was rare. Pisten Bully groomers?..never heard of them back then - grooming? Build you own drag and pull it behind a Nordic. Speed was not the goal except on the ovals and lakes.

Today, with groomed trails, rarely see any sled less than a 550 fan, most 600cc liquids or larger, much better suspension, speed is easy to attain. Put the DESS or key in and away you go.

I do feel perhaps that trails can be looked at from more of safety perspective, visibility improvements, avoid sharp corners when possible, avoidance of or dual lanes for blind hills. Perhaps some of these trail improvements will help those who are responsible riders better avoid those who are reckless.

VAST doesn't pass any laws...the VT Legislature does.

Two levers on the handle bars of every machine, one on the right and one on the left. Unfortunately the left side isn't used enough. RIDE RIGHT.

There is a Safe and Responsible Riding Committee that meets once a month. There are representatives from VAST, law enforcement and State government and is open to the public. This is only an advisory group. They don't make laws. VAST doesn't either. That is left to the legislature. Our all-intelligent legislature passed the law that allows children ages 8-11 to drive without the Safety Certificate, but with a parent or guardian. That was not favored by VAST, and still isn't. I guess that when this law was passed, some of the legislators must've had young children, and big leverage. It makes no sense.
Only 3 years ago, the statutes and fines schedules were updated and that was a good step. It can be costly when a statute is broken.
If VAST had a means to revoke a TMA and registration, when the laws are broken might help.

I'm all for what I've seen done in Maine. Instead of the Wardens setting up radar on long, fast, safe straights just to earn a few bucks for the state, they pick a nice, wide sweeping corner and paint some flourescent lines right down the middle and may even throw a small cone or two there as well. Then, they just sit on the inside of the corner and watch. If a ski clearly goes over the line or hits a cone, it's ticket time. They don't care how fast you go through the corner, just that you're in control on the RIGHT side of the trail.

There's no stopping the idiot, wanna be racer from trying to win a fight with a tree. If the only person they hurt is themselves, oh well. No law is going to change that. But if they knew someone could be watching a corner or the crest of a hill, it MIGHT just keep them from going head on into someone else.

First- There is no speed limit on VAST trails. There is a reasonable and prudent law concerning the operation of a snowmobile on the Statewide Snowmobile Trail System but NO speed limit.

There is a speed limit on all State and Federal land of 35 MPH. There is a State of Vermont speed limit on all State highways of 55MPH unless otherwise marked and that INCLUDES BODIES OF WATER. So snowmobiles can not exceed 55 MPH on lakes and ponds.

This is good discussion about a problem we face every year. No one wants a senseless tradedy and it seems we have too many each year. I think we have tradegies in cars, boats, motorcycles, snowmobiles, skis, snowboards and even bicycles every year that could be prevented with a little common sense and responsibility. I don't mean just the victims- I think there needs to be a lot of peer pressure and mentoring of the people we come in contact with. Each of us needs to frown on risky behavior and change the attitude of the thrill .. It simply is not acceptable to put yourself or anyone else at risk because of your actions.

I do not want to sound as if the fun should go out of our recreation. We can go fast and catch air and have a great time without getting hurt or hurting someone else. A little sound judgement and a lot less carefree abandon could go a long way to keeping all of us safe.

Three weeks ago, the family and I returned from a weekend overnight at a friend's camp. All was good until we had some riders approach us from behind at a high rate of speed. I was last in line so I pulled to the right to allow the group to pass safely. The upcoming stretch of trail was a series of blind hills and I watched in horror as one rider after another pulled to the left of my wife going up hill on a blind hill to pass her. She would have pulled over on the straight and level section of trail between hills but never got the chance. This group of riders did the same move on two other sleds in front of my wife scareing the crap out of them. I had my daughter on the back of my sled and she could not believe the move these idiots pulled. We were travelling at 35 to 40 MPH on the pipeline in Burke. I am thankful that this day did not end in tradegy- but it could have.

This type of riding gives all responsible snowmobilers a bad name and when it goes horribly wrong, the headlines tell the tragic story. I was really upset about the actions of this group and continue to be upset about it. It put a damper on what was, to this point in the weekend, a really great trip.

In closing, we as a snowmobile community need to speak, loudly and clearly to the risky behavior that threatens our sport and our lives. Ride right and ride safe.

50 MPH is the speed limit for VT roads unless otherwise posted, thus the lakes and ponds are like wise.

I've only been out three times this year and brought my eager 5 year old daughter out for one of the trips from Woodford-->Jenks-->Woodford and thankfully didn't see any yahoos out there. All it is going to take is for me to have one close call on my own with another crazy for me to not bring my daughter again. I like the divided trails in Quebec. I would love to hear what other clubs in other sates/provinces do to address the corner problem. I know I have almost gone over the edge of a corner I've been so far right! I'll take falling off my sled any day over a head on with a guy doing 60 sideways through a blind corner

NEK121328- You are absolutely correct! I stand corrected.

I maintain a couple mile section of trail and have a blind hill in a field. I have thought of dividing into two lanes but the way the groomer goes only one side would get groomed. I we wanted two lanes we would also have to pay for double grooming. So what I do is set the posts wide apart and mark it well with blind hill signs. Of course you get the boneheads that get there jollys running down the posts in the fields and taking out the signs. I remember riding in the groton area in the late 80s in the groton area there was a groomer that did two lanes with one pass but the lanes were very narrow and the divider would get trampled down. It would be nice if we could make the trails safer on an enthusiast level rather than a law by somebody that has no clue.

There are some trails in vt that are barely wide enough fo 2 sleds to meet on. I would like to see some trail made wider.

There is no speed limit in VT unless on state land,...35MPH,..the rest is reasonable speed,..some limits apply on lakes,..look folks,..shit happens,. people die on horses, cars, busses, motorcycles, atv's, and space shuttles,...common sense folks is what it takes,..I wont even read past the first post on this issue, cause theres always someone out there who is gonna "fix the system" with new rules and regulations,..(see "more government control")...Just try to ride safe, and also remember that your days are numbered even if you sit in front of your video game player all your life,...If I went on a snowmachine,....I would be happy I died doing what i loved most,..unlike thos folks who get killed for no reason,....let it go,....its sad,..yes,..but shit happens......

Three weeks ago, the family and I returned from a weekend overnight at a friend's camp. All was good until we had some riders approach us from behind at a high rate of speed. I was last in line so I pulled to the right to allow the group to pass safely. The upcoming stretch of trail was a series of blind hills and I watched in horror as one rider after another pulled to the left of my wife going up hill on a blind hill to pass her. She would have pulled over on the straight and level section of trail between hills but never got the chance. This group of riders did the same move on two other sleds in front of my wife scareing the crap out of them. I had my daughter on the back of my sled and she could not believe the move these idiots pulled. We were travelling at 35 to 40 MPH on the pipeline in Burke. I am thankful that this day did not end in tradegy- but it could have--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------i made a post close to this statment about being passed when i have a tour out. and i feel as they should wait till a strait part of the trail and for you to let them by i can't count how many time's people have said they almost lost control do to someone passing them with out warning

700ultra my family and I ride every weekend we can, we have rode in Canada, Maine, VT, NY and this year we are looking into NH trip. It doesn't matter where you are you find the same thing, the same driving habits.. What we did as a family we purchased (when our son was just starting to drive) helmet radios. The nice part about these is you radio the people in front to inform them of those very impatient people who can not wait for a safe place to pass. It also helps with oncoming traffic, the lead person is able to communicate to the rest of the group about sled coming and how many... or any other condition that may be in the trail.. (rolls,water holes,trees, Skiers)This is not the answer to all safe riding , everybody has to give and take, also I think like others have posted that the machines of today are over powered for the trail system. Years past smaller machines, now we have machine that will hit 100+ MPH out of the box and the trails are not any wider than they were back when we all were running 440's/ 600's ..

Man, couldn't agree with you more! Tragically sad, but shit does happen. In fact, the young man in Morrisville was my Uncle's nephew. I could've been killed driving to work this morning. Come to think of it, people die in car accidents everyday. Probably more than we hear/ read about. But, when someone dies on a snowmobile every conservative asshat needs to point fingers and say, "see, see, see... unsafe!" Are machines overpowered? Maybe, but if I want to pay $10,000 for a muscle sled than that's my right to do so. It's the retard who always has to have the flipper to the bar. Are you ever going to get rid of them? No! Hell, people have their liscenses taken from them for infractions all time. Can we keep them off the road? No!

So, someone passed you on a blind hill huh? Here's an idea, don't pull over and allow them to pass in an unsafe spot. Wait till a better spot then move over. They can't get past you then they can't get past those in front of you. Another thought, make sure people know to look over their shoulders once in a while. Can't tell you how many times I've followed someone for miles while they have no clue I'm there. Then, when I do go by guess what... that's right, they're scared shitless. Too bad, pay attention!

I've been riding for years, never an accident. I know people who've lost loved ones on the trail. Do I ride too fast sometimes, sure. But, I'm always to the right. Doesn't mean the other guy will be, and I anticipate that. You take a chance every time you get on your sled. I personally don't think we need more legislation telling us what to do. Think the trails are unsafe and the sleds are too fast? Then buy an old jag and go pull each other around a field in a red sled.

No one person can "fix the system". That's why the opening post was a plea for ideas and communication, not shoving new regs. down anyone's throats. What can we do to prevent the government control?
It's sad that a life is lost because "shit happens". If that 17 year old child was mine, I'd have a hard time absorbing that idea. I'm sure that there will be a lot of questions raised and I hope there are some good answers.
As a collective group, we need to make an effort to make our playpen safer, or someone else will do it for us, and that won't be pretty.
There may be no "correct" answer, but we can't dismiss the facts.
You should read all of the posts. There has been some great input and a general agreement that there are problems that need attention.
Speak to your VAST Directors and whoever else might listen.
Don't let this issue die along with a child, who can no longer decide for himself.
We are human and will make mistakes.
Let's continue to make our playpen safer.
Thanks for the great responses.

I rode 150 miles on Tuesday without incident. Then on my way home doing 45 mph on rt 93 south out side St. J. I hit black ice and did a 360 and jack knifed in the middle of the road. No damage but thank god I had a change of under wear. Rode the rest of the way home in 4 wheel drive. I don't think legislation is the answer but education is. Our machines are not toys but in the hands of the inexperienced thay can be and have been deadly toys. Kind of like the red rider BB gun. Its all fun and games until some one gets their eye put out. When you look at all the advertising of sleds in the magazines and the tv shows it is primarily showing the yahoo's jumping, slamming corners and getting air. It's giving the impression that all riding is x-game style. Education is where it's all about.

All great posts here.....

but as far as our clubs telling a landowner where and how "WE" are going to construct a trail on THEIR land isnt a good idea! It's hard enough for club officers (year round) to get the permission from landowners to allow us to put a trail on their land, let alone tell them what we are going to do. we really need to becarefull with landowners because without them, there are no trails.
bottom line...slow the F_ _k down and stay right! at least you wont be in the wrong and wont get the Ticket after you pickup all the parts of your sled! lol (happened last year!)
just my 2 cents!

***Tom***

This statement is 100% truth!

01800MXZX-

My Wife ripped me a new asshole when I "suggested" she needed to look over her shoulder for sleds approaching from behind her. She had been watching for me and my daughter continuously and decided that paying attention to the blind hill ahead was more appropriate than driving in her mirrors.

You make it sound like we were the problem. Passing uphill on a blind hill was the problem. No matter how frustrated you get over being held up by slowpokes, no one has the right to put my wife or my daughter in harms way.

There is a time and a place to pass------- safely


These clowns did not pass safely.


You were not there. I was. I know what happened. You do not.

tragic story but this is life. Like many have said snowmobiling is a choice you make, people die everyday for many differnt reasons, some of whitch arnt there faults. But you cant stop doing what you love because of someone else. Ride how you feel comfortable, AND FOR FUCKS SAKE EVERYONE STAY ON THE RIGHT. Remember.........................if your scared "go to church" not out on the trails........sometimes its the way over cautious ones that make situations dangerous

The tragedy of this story is DEATH, not life. The unfortunate thing is that some people have a comfort level that is at a sno-cross level and has no place on a trail system. There are some very selfish thinking idiots that feel they are fine because they always land on the right side of the trail.
What happened to respect for the other guy?
Cautious riders don't cause accidents. Unsafe conditions and unsafe acts cause accidents.
Why should a family enjoying the surroundings be bullied off the trails? There is no speed limit, so why should they be ridiculed for going too slow?
If you scare them, then you need to rethink your driving habits.
There was a time when the "Sunday" driver was expected on a Sunday. Think of the uproar if every slow rider hit the trails every Sunday. Imagine the speed calming effect. The idiots would have to slow down.
It's very simple. Ride in a manner that is respectable to others, no matter their abilities.
Save the cowboy crap for the race track. At least finishing first will mean something. No one will be upset and some of us will even pay to see the fun.
Have a great weekend

did you get a look at there sleds, what were they riding

Yes, I got a look at their sleds. I know what they were riding.

It wasn't what they were riding that matters- It's how they were riding.

The last one in the group sticks in my mind to this day- as he is going up this hill, he is gooseing the throttle making the track spin and the back end of the machine step out. He is about 2 feet from the sled in front of him. Going uphill...on the left side....???

All you can do is pray that those ignorant idiots only take themselves out when they crash, and they will crash.
It's very difficult to guard against utter stupidity.
At least you made it safely.
I wonder if they care about the agony they'd leave behind. The worst thing is that these bozos aren't all young kids. I helped a guy out of a tree 2 years ago that was totally gray haired. He could've been dark haired before the tree grabbed him. He was pretty banged up, but was more embarrassed to have done something so stupid. It's not the age as much as the maturity.
These are the guys that will cause an accident and take the innocent rider with him.
Usually they travel in packs. They have nothing to prove if their alone. When these crashes are investigated, I'd like to see every one in the pack ticketed for careless operation. It works in other criminal cases and this is no different. Nail one and nail them all. Impound all the sleds in the pack. Let them argue with a judge. Give them their sleds back after their trials.
VAST also needs to set a standard for punishment. Pulling the TMA would be a good start.
Any thoughts?
Drastic? You bet!!! Would it work? It's worth a try.

ya thats all we need is more regulations from vast. People are always gonna ride fast theres no way around that but whats left to do? you cant blame everyone because selected few cant control their sleds. Ya I would say that I ride fast but you know what? in over 15 years I've never had an accident or even came close to endangering someone elses life. Its these rookies out there that cant control their sleds.....I cant count the amount of times where I've almost been hit by some fuckin yahoo that locks up the brake around a corner when he see's other sleds coming. Thats when being an experienced rider helps because I've always been able control myself to avoid being hit.........ya I've wanted to pound the shit outta them but what goods that gonna do? aint gonna make em ride any better. So I guess all you can do is watch out for yourself.............
















and o-ya .........hammer down

Hi,

Time and time again , We have all seen this scenario play out, As the bad apples are causing accidents and a few tragic deaths , The cry for
" something must be done to prevent this from happening" is heard by all. The policing and peer pressure with-in the organization fails to improve conditions and a well meaning politician gets a bill pased into law that makes the sport more restrictive and puts that sport under a large microscope to be closely examined by the media and scrutinized by green groups who then use those facts to further restrict the sport.

This is our sport. If we can't control ourselves , Big Brother will and with rules and conditions no one wants, most politicians don't ride snowmobiles.

GOVERN YOURSELF AND BEHAVE

D.U.I. IS AREADY TIED TO YOUR AUTOMOBILE DRIVING PRIVILEGE, WILL SPEEDING, C&N OR RECKLESS ENDANGERMENT BE FAR BEHIND???

How would you like a mandated cc limit or horsepower limit on your next new sled, or a electronic device to control acceleration??
Maybe just the bad light in which the media presents us will help convince all the landowners to close the trails .
No trails , no bad activity, but no good activity either.

Your actions affect everyone involved , THINK ABOUT WHAT YOU DO!!!

Duhnis