As vice -president of the Sullivan County Trail Association (SCTA) I am appauled as to what has happened. What started out as some members, including myself, that were against paying a select few members to groom the trails with club equip., when there are volunteers who are willing to do it & have done it in the past. It has escalated to back-handed, closed-door politics in which the paid groomer operators were given a raise from $13 to $15 per hour without membership consultation or approval. In addition, at a recent meeting there was a list made of volunteers that were interested in becoming operators, none of which were contacted or put on the list of approved operators, just the few that opt to get paid. I groomed 50+ hours last year, sometimes all alone, as a volunteer & did not make the operators list, as I have been vocal about volunteering. I was told I need more time.
Everyone talks about today's youth going to hell, but after seeing these old timers in action, I'm glad I'm as young as I am (although 38 is really not young).
In closing, I would just like to say if I am wrong then somebody PLEASE tell me & I will lay down. But i feel I am right and will continue to fight until told differently. As for Mr. President ( who will remain nameless) you may have won THIS battle but you will NOT win the war.

It sounds a little shady, but are there other things to consider? Are there any insurance issues? Does the insurer require a certian number of hours/training for driving the equipment? If not, does the club have a written policy reading "X" number of hours of training etc?

It doesn't sound logical that a club would turn down an abundance of free labor, unless there's something that we're missing.

Sounds like this club has apoblem that is going to get worse before it gets better.

Kicking back to their groomer buddy's I suppose - nice to see "OUR" $$$ going to good use!

Not only is there no written club policy about training but the so called operator incharge or any other listed operator hasn't taken a groomer operator safety/ training course. Sounds unbelievable but it's true. I can't believe some people think this is ok. They think it is perfectly acceptable. So far i'm fighting a losing battle but I'm not giving up just yet.

are these the trails by willowemoc?i didnt know there was a groomer in sullivan county?

Some other questions: Who's covering unemployment insurance? What happens when one of them gets a disability injury while working? What do the club/association by-laws say about paying people, how money is spent (club/association majority votes), how raises are decided? Who witholds taxes? Social Security or does the club send out a 1099?

Seems like a one-sided story, but I have a few questions.

How many years has the current operator been grooming the trails?
Are the trails actually groomed when needed?
Is the current operator reliable?
Who maintains and services the groomers?
Is the current operator trust worthy?
Does the current operator clear along the trail or just groom around down trees and obstacles?
Is gas money part of the $15?

Sorry, two more questions.
How many miles of trail does the club groom?
How much money are we talking for one year of grooming?

The operator has been doing this for several years, even before the club was started. Then he was a volunteer using his own equip. Now he has club sleds, club drags, & club gas & still insists on being paid. The trails & equip. are always in good shape, he is trustworthy & no, gas is not part of the pay, he gets re-embursed for all expenses. We do not question their work ethic or work quality as it is excellent. But how do you justify paying someone when there are volunteers willing to do the work just not allowed to partake because it will take $$$ out of someone's pocket. Also, everyone that clears trails & cuts brush with their own equip. is a volunteer. If they opt to get paid they will recieve $ 7.15. What makes a trail maintainer so much less important that he is worth half as much as a guy driving around on a club snowmobile with a 4x8 drag.Please come back to one of our meetings. You haven't been there in a while & your missing a lot important issues. I know you are busy, but aren't we all?

here's something that is even more disturbing....the operators son just joined the club within the last 6 months and I am being considerate with that time frame. He donates his time and tractor to drag some pipes in for a bridge, we give him a free memebership. Why he had not joined for years before, I don't know ($$$$$) but regardless now this guy is a certified groomer operator. with the snow we have had here he may have groomed 5-6 hours. Go figure, he's qualified and the VP who groomed last year for many hours isn't. No motion at the club, nothing. it's not the end.

so when and where is the next meeting of this gang?i might like to sit in

I have not ridden up ther since the early 80's.. Still groom?....Where and when. Snow ..? where and when? Livingston Manor..still a ghost town?

The chicken plant closed up about 15 years ago in manor,so there went the good jobs. groom whats that?Good news is there are a few new young DEC guys in town who are full of piss and vinegar,just waiting for the snow to fly so they can write some tickets.If you really want to ride keep going north,it isnt like it used to be

Something sounds fishy!

Sounds like the old club in Pine Island NY (orange county) , " Desperate to Ride ".

They closed the club down because of the BS going on, but you know what , there is still money sitting in the bank that was left over from the club memberships and only the tresurer Mitch has/had access to it. Maybe you could tap into this forgotten money and help out your club.

Renegade, give me a call please -
Anne O'Dell
NYSSA Ulster County District Director
845-270-5441

welcome aboard anneodell,hopefully you can get them youngsters inline.there will probably be a little of this and hopefully this

Have you spoken to Kevin or Anne (area NYSSA Directors) about this?
Do you need us to get involved?
We would need Kevin's input, he has the juice and support of my club and membership.
I have found them to be very interested and supportive and attend our meetings.
I am not fully informed so I will not comment on the local politics.
As a club President, I will support other Nyssa member clubs if requested.
Will be assisting teaching a safety class next month with Rock Tavern.
PM me if you need contact info for Kevin or Anne.

I hope somebody can help. some of of just aren't sure what you are allowed to do and what you can't. There is more too it than just paying the groomer driver. does anyone know how all this grant money works,etc. and what rules and regulations you are bound to?

Anne, I am impressed!
Thanks for paying attention.
You Rock!
Check our website for ride announcements, you are invited!
Just call my cell if you want in, Always a spot in my trailer for you and Kevin.
Bruce

Yes, these are Willowemoc & also Denman Mountain trails. We now have 3 groomers & some of the best paid members in NY state to run them. The post on the SCTA web site says they are looking for more people to run them. We however know this to be untrue, as at the August '07 meeting a list was made of people interested in grooming, none of which have been approached/ contacted. Why? Good question.
I also was wrong on a different reply on this topic when i stated that none of the approved groomer operators has completed the groomer operator safety course. None have, but i have since found out that NY state doesn't mandate such training, only suggest it. I stand corrected.

I called you today & left a message. You & kevin left the meeting too soon. I know it was snowing pretty good, but I'm sure that was part of the powers-to-be plan to get you guys out of there before releasing this information. I look forward to speaking with you.

Thank you guys for paying attention & for your willingness to help out. I'll see how things progress & will keep you guys updated.

i find it funny that the guy who is pissed about there being training for the groomer is the reason for it because he didnt know how to groom and burnt the motor in it last year not only that most of New yorks groomers are paid. your little quote (you may have won the battle but not the war) was by a southern general in the civil war yum the north won

look at what one local thinks about the situation:


[url="http://sctrailassoc.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=334"]

Alot of people dont know whats going on because they are not at the meetings. This is your club and your money.

Not pissed about there being training,as it is mandatory, pissed that after 50+ hours of operation last season I am not even considered as a candidate this season. Neither is anyone else that isn't in the Groomer Supervisor"s back pocket. If I am to be punished for the 12 year old machine cooking a piston and taken off the crew, why have no other VOLUNTEERS been approached about picking up my slack? They way I see it; last years pay scale was $13.00 per hour, 50 hours x $ 13.00 = $650.00. The bill to repair the sled was $450.00 (give or take). The club is still $200.00 to the better. And please send me any & all links to clubs that pay their groomer operators. As I said many times before, if I'm wrong I'll lay down.

i presume you are the infamous new groomer boy mentioned earlier.

Sounds like somebody is on our side.

were are there actuall trails in the catskills?

You could not be more wrong. Do you have facts to back up this statement?

Umm, the only paid groomers I'm aware of in NYS, are town employees, where the town applies for and receives the grant in aid from Parks. Except Old Forge of course.

When you start paying "members", it's a business, not a club.

Thanks Saberman, this is exactly what i've been saying all along, but my opinions fall on deaf ears.

Another one on the side of the good guys. Keep 'em coming !!!


I also want to re-state again that this is all because the group that has offered to Volunteer their time to groom is put on the back-burner so those getting paid are afforded first opportunity.Sounds like I'm doing this and yes I am.

Sullivan County, near Mongaup Pond state campsite, and also we have a small system on Denman Mountain in Grahamsville. Some 30 miles or so.

I live in Sullivan County and do 90% of my riding here, but I also go upstate when I can. When the 2-tier registration system came into effect I decided I would join a club upstate, rather than the 1 Sullivan county club we have. I do not ride the Mongoup (state) trail system often, maybe once a year if that, which is why I joined a club up in tug hill rather than where I live.

To give a little background. The trails I ride locally are all cleaned up and and maintained by us Snowmobilers because we love to ride. We are grateful that we have access to the private trails we have and we try to respect that.... We VOLUNTEER our time year around. My father and Brother in-law and I have homemade drags that we pull behind our personal sleds.

I thought about joining the Sullivan County Trail Association but I heard many stories about some of the lead members and how the club is run, and I was nut sure if I wanted to get involved with that. By what I have heard (and I understand there are always 2 sides to the story), there are some major leadership issues.

Who joins a club expecting to get paid for the work they do? You join a club to be around the sport you love so much and care to help make better.

Why is the President of the club allowing groomer operators to get paid when there seems to be a list of VOLUNTEERS waiting to get their time in. Is it really true that the groomer who insist that he gets paid for his time, now has his son grooming who just joined the club in October,when the list of people willing to groom for free was submitted in August....I can't believe that a vote on this was passed...the newest member is picked over people who have been in the club for so much longer? Wait....was there a vote?

I looked on the SCTA forum where the meeting minutes are posted, I see minutes for this month, but nothing mentioned about grooming issues, and I don't see any minutes from October with what was voted on and the outcome.

my opinions:

A grooming schedule should be made, using all volunteers first, and then if and when needed people who expect to get paid will be used.

I think $15.00/hr is ridiculous for a volunteer.

If its in the bi-laws that all decisions made need to be voted on, and these votes are not happening than the President needs to step down or be impeached, since everyone needs to be involved in these decisions.

I know, if I feel so strongly about this and want to make a difference then I need to join this club...

I assume Anne O'Dell (Or anyone from the state) can prove that the statement made about 90% of groomers get paid is false?

I know Anne has requested that you call her.
Have you?
She needs to be involved.
And if she needs our input and club support, her and Kevin have it.

This being a new system, things need to be worked out.
We will be paying attention to your issues.

excellent post

Excellent post is right. I am also a member of a club upstate and really don't need all this aggrevation, but if I throw my hands in the air, they win. Our meetings are the 3rd Thursday of the month @ Claryville firehouse. We need all the support we can get. Hope to see you there, but leave your opinions home since they aren't interested.
I also hear some scuttlebutt about a new bi-law on the horizon, probably a reprocussion for being vocal? We'll see.

We're playing phone tag, I was away, then she was. We'll talk, I'm anxious.

alot of people agree with the situation but nobody comes to the meetings. It will never change if you don't come and voice your opinion. Although I did that once and almost ended up in a fist fight for voicing my opinion at my club. Really makes you wonder doesn't it. Please come support your club.

alot of people agree with the situation but nobody comes to the meetings. It will never change if you don't come and voice your opinion. Although I did that once and almost ended up in a fist fight for voicing my opinion at my club. Really makes you wonder doesn't it. Please come support your club.

hey balls itch what time do the meetings start?

haha im like 10 mins from grahamsville...i herd the trails were trash...poor maint. but the only time that i rode up there was with a friend and his sled broke down about a half hr of riding lol so i didnt get 2 really check it out...but mongaup is up near claryville rite? and frost valley

Denman Mtn is usually in great shape, less traffic over there. Mongaup is always cut out, now wider bridges, And 2 groomers up there. Check it out, you'll be happy you did. When we get snow of course.

The Sullivan County Trail Association is a member of NYSSA and is responsible for building, grooming, and maintaining the Mongaup Trail System of approximately 50 miles on NYS land in Sullivan County. It is our ultimate goal to connect that trail system with the NYS Corridor Trail systems through links with Ulster and Delaware Counties. Because we are working on State Land, bounded by private land, we have a unique set of problems. We are one of many clubs who, through the grant writing process, are reimbursed by the NYS Trail Fund, and in doing so must follow their guidelines on reimbursement for grooming and trail work. Any club member who wishes to donate their time is free to do so, and MANY do. Why keep harping on the fact that our groomer DOES get paid? The person who currently does our grooming has done so for many many years, faithfully, and with excellent results. In optimum snow conditions, the Mongaup Trail System provides one of the nicest rides in the area. He also maintains our equipment. Our Association grooming policy requires that anyone interested in becoming a groomer with our club completes an inservice training with the person in charge of our grooming and machine maintenance. He will then add them to the approved groomers list. The list brought before the meeting mentioned was a TENTATIVE LIST, as I stated at that time. Because we are in the Catskill Park Area we need to insure that everything is done to specs. We need to insure that our machinery is not going to be mistreated, because we cannot have any down time for any of our 3 machines due to the short window of the season here. The person who does our grooming has ASKED for new people to step up, do the training, and give him more time off. There are about 4 others who have done the training and do groom with and for him, at present. And, yes, one of them is the son of the groomer...and he HAS been a club member for the last three years, and has groomed with his father each season. If someone has issue with this, the place to bring it up is on the floor of our meeting. NOT in a forum of a website where nothing can be settled. Our NYSSA reps have been at all our meetings, and have tried to explain that the groomers have every right to be paid. That there ARE other groomers in the state that DO get paid. Maybe you don't know them, but they are out there. What you have NOT stated is your REASON for opposing paying the groomers. It has been club policy since we formed.

We DO need younger members, and DO appreciate all the work our younger members are doing - they are very committed, they work hard and do a terrific job. But I don't think they realize the restrictions we are under working within the Catskill Park with the DEC. We got burned once by someone who SAID they were doing trail work for us, and ended up paying a fine. We cannot chance that again. Perhaps we err on the side of caution. I understand that you do not agree with groomers being paid - and SOME of our groomers are not. But they are entitled to be paid. And the rate increase for grooming was brought on the floor. It was discussed, and, although no formal vote was taken, the body present assented to the increase. I will personally see that Roberts Rules of Orders are followed to the letter at each meeting to prevent this happening again. Because the same members usually attend, I suspect we are lax on form. I am asking that you bring your dissent to the floor of the meeting to be aired.

My husband and I have been involved in snowmobile associations since the early 70's, starting with the Southern NY Federation of Snowmobile Clubs. We HAVE been involved because we want the sport to flourish in our area and state. We have held offices, I am a certified snowmobile safety instructor. We have helped the Trail Association build a network of 5 instructors who work with community organizations to provide snowmobile safety courses for students AND adults. Two of these instructors ARE from the "younger" set, and we sure appreciate their help! We draw people from Pennsylvania, New Jersey, Connecticut, Massachusetts, and the metropolitan area, as well as local counties, so all hands are needed!

That is why I ask that you do things in the correct way - not on the internet where people don't get the whole story and where the Association cannot respond. ALL of the Association members have worked hard to get where we are today. They ALL deserve to have input.

Cheryl A. Muthig, Secretary, Sullivan County Trail Association. (and p.s. - I am not THAT old, yet!)

Perhaps someone within this elite club could explain why when approached by another group within sullivan county, which has about 80 +members.wanted to join strictly for the registration discount was declined.

Sounds like any other club, same issues of trail and equipment maintenance and dealing with the DEC.

I'm still not aware of a paid groomer outside of municipal employees, must be expensive what with the taxes, insurance and paperwork.

Your registration dollars at work.

Not true. but i will save my voice for the meeting. And if you look back at some of the posts the opposition is not with paying, it's with volunteers not being given first or in some cases any opportunity.