I would like to give big thanks to the clubs that actually bothered to do some grooming this year. I'm sure there's not many of you out there receiving my thanks. The trails are garbage right now. I understand we only have volunteers, x-mas and blah blah blah but this snow fell a long friggin time ago. It seems like since Snoman posted there excuses on why they can't groom most are latching on a doing sweet FA. Why is a bunch of the warm up shacks not set up yet? There isn't any wood in a bunch of them. The trails aren't done, guys have just put up the signs and so on. The thing that gets me is they will groom one trail in the area and leave the rest. So...If one of the trails meets Snoman's "requirements" for grooming, then what is wrong with the rest in the area? I totally understand if there is thin ice or a risk of a guy falling through the ice. DUH! Out by Grand Beach and Gimli most of the trails are on land without swamps or lakes and could be groomed anytime. If there is a problem motivating people to groom, then maybe the system doesn't work!!! Maybe the clubs should be paid by the mile that they actually groom. This would motivate them to groom instead of finding an excuse on why they can't groom …..and where does that extra money go anyways??? There must be some left over at the end of the year. Fuel costs can’t be that much!

It seems like Snoman doesn't give a sh@t about the trails or our sport. There web site sucks and they never update it. Get with the times guys! Take a look at this site: http://snowmobilegolden.com/ Golden is smaller than portage and will have much much less money coming in. Look at how many miles of mountain trails they maintain and how interactive their site is. How can they afford all of this? Maybe they are much more efficient than Snoman and happen to care about the sport. They even have GPS points on the site. WOW!


I happen to know an independent group contacted Duncan to potentially offer a donation to Snowman and he couldn't even be bothered to call back. I guess Snoman doesn't need the extra cash!!! Why do they always whine about guys without trail passes then? If out of a large group of rider's only one doesn't have a pass, I think that sounds not bad considering how many sleds are out there. Sure the extra cash would help right Duncan???

I have always purchased a trail pass and always will to support the sport. After the last week of sh@t riding, I feel like sticking my trail pass up Snoman’s a$$ ....plate and all!!!

well one reason is because we got alot of snow before cold so the swamps and lakes cant freeze, and we need a big dump like we got last dec 31st.

Wow, signed up just for that, must have been pretty bad.

you nailed it sticker plate and my boot, friggen lazy asses

yeah i agree, was ridin in LDB durin the new years, terrible. worst ride i have ever had.

the trails here are decent but we havent had lots of snow in a while. there are some rough and bare spots but its not to bad yet. i think all the signs are up and all the trails ive been on have been groomed once or twice this year. but then we have had lots of cold weather and snow.

If the trails arent groomed at all do you thik they'll send you out a rebate cheque? lol!!!

I wish they would just quit grooming trails altogether, then all these posers would take up a new hobby.

i agree too, been to 2 shacks yesterday and no wood, no grooming, but sure as hell they have the signs up to try to make us pay. now how does this work, are the trails closed as there is no grooming meaning we do not have to buy a trail pass, or are they officially open as the markers are in place but there is no grooming, or is it the trails are closed till grooming starts?

now both of these shacks are in the seddons/ldb area and they both seem to have been left out for the past couple of years it seems? whats up with that? and reading the log book in the cabins many, many riders are voicing their opinions on this issue.

it seems they made the effort to put up the trail markers, and with all the deadfall around both cabins it would have been easy for the club to cut some wood when it was nice out instead of under a foot of snow, and we all know they must have had a chainsaw when they were marking trails to clean them up right? just seems to be a bunch of lazy aszzes who just want to party at the year end windups, where does all the money go? i think the books should be opened up to all to see! maybe it is time to hire someone to groom and do trail maintainace, or get the people on welfare or unemployed something to do for their income instead of sitting on their butts all year long?

True about not needing a pass if trails arnt open, but I heard that if they are open and you get cought without a pass then it could be up to about a $300 fine :S

You guys who whine about grooming and kick Snoman make me sick. We need more snow, swamps and waterways gotta freeze. Where they have groomed it really hasn't set up either. Golden BC have snowmobilers that flock there and spend gobs of money and private enterprise pays for the grooming costs and they sell passes as well. They also have the BCSF (BC SNOMAN) which I am sure is not a perfect organization either. They probably have way more money to spend on grooming and it looks like to me the trails run from 30 - 100 kms and about 10 of them. We have 12,000 km worth of some of the best trails in the world. I still remember when we had absolutely no trail system except for the parks etc. You couldn't ride anywhere after the winds of January because of the rock hard drifts etc. We still rode because we are passionate about it but without markings and signs it was dangerous. If you have a better alternative great, Snoman just ties the clubs together and distributes and administers the funding that is funneled through Snopasses which cost less than a friggin' drive belt and most of it gets put back into the hands of the clubs who use it for fuel, repairs and yes PAYMENTS on the grooming equipment. These groomers were bought in most cases by a guy and his wife who stuck their neck out to finance it along with a few sno bros. The whole system is run by VOLUNTEERS. Mother nature will come through and at least we can do some riding unlike some areas in past seasons and if you look at last year we had awesome trails. Maybe ask for reasons why and what you can do to help rather than whine and snivel. Snoman can't make it snow and the groomers are 150,000 dollar units for good ones and repair costs are atrocious. The clubs can't afford to wreck them.

For not updating thier site here is what was put on there 30 days ago with explanations to why no grooming yet:

A Word from Snoman
December 4, 2007

Ever wonder why the groomer is not out? Here is some insight into trail grooming. Some of these things have been learned from manuals and clubs across Canada and U-S, while others have been learned from our club’s own experiences.

** The most important requirement for effective grooming is correct temperature. The ideal grooming temperature is between -5ºC and -20ºC. As snow is collected in the drag, it has to be able to flow, like flour. As we all know, once the temperature gets close to 0ºC snow begins to stick together. Instead of flowing out under the rear pan, the snow builds up in the drag until it spills out over the top in large chunks or balls. These large chunks are dangerous when they freeze in the middle of the trail.

** As the temperature drops below -20ºC, steel starts to get brittle and equipment is more susceptible to breakage if it strikes a solid object such as a stump or rock. Cold temperatures must also be considered for operator safety in case of equipment problems. Although he/she is equipped with communications equipment and warm clothes, waiting for a snowmobile ride 40kms in the country at 3am can be a very uneasy feeling.

** Question: We had a fresh 15cm snowfall last night. How come the groomer is not out?
In order to groom effectively and make the trail more durable, the idea is to cut the mogul off completely, not just fill in the void. Moguls have a memory. If you just fill in the void with new snow, by the time half a dozen snowmobiles run over it, the new snow settles and the mogul is back
again. When you groom fresh snow, the drag can't be lowered deep enough to cut off the mogul because snow collects faster than it can flow out under the rear pan. Again, the drag fills up and spills snow out over the sides. After a fresh snow fall it's better to let the snowmobiles run it in and knock the air out of it. Then when the drag processes this finer snow, it packs much tighter.

** A lot of grooming is done at night because it's safer and more effective. Safer, because there are usually not as many snowmobiles on the trails, and when there is, the bright lights of the groomer are visible long before the machine itself. Grooming at night is more effective because it's usually colder and the snow sets faster. Also the longer the trail sets before too many snowmobiles ride over it, the better. Set up takes anywhere from two to six hours, depending on temperature and moisture content. So if you come up behind a groomer and the operator beckons you to go around, that's the main reason, to allow him to groom without snowmobiles on the trail enabling effective trail set-up.

** Grooming is not scheduled during heavy snowfalls or storms. Operator and snowmobiler safety are of principle concern, but it is also not productive to operate in these conditions.

Hopefully this gives you a little insight into grooming. So if you see the groomer parked some day, it might not be 'broke down', we may be waiting for the right conditions.



Think you can do a better job? Than make it snow, get elected to Snoman, run your own club (you could call it the Dirt Runners) and pay for a groomer.

Taking jabs at Duncan Stokes is immature as I am sure he is laying awake at night thinking of new ways to cause more misery for the Snowmobilers of Manitoba. The directors are all you guessed it..... SNOWMOBILERS and I am sure they thwart his diabolical plans for singlehandedly ruining trails and riding sleds in Manitoba.

Look at the bright side at least we don't have avalanches here and if you want grooming then you can go to Spring Ditch snowmaker and all. Be thankful that we have people who try to make a difference with improving our riding in this province. I am proud of them and appreciate what they try to do for YOU.

It's too bad there are so many people (Dorks) who are eager to bash the trails, the clubs and members who maintain the trails. When I hear a guy (Dork) say " I went to a cabin and there was no fire wood, but noticed there was plenty laying around", I say to myself, did he bother to pick any up. I'm sure the answer was NO because he was too busy riding! Instead Dorks go on about volenteers being lazy. Well to all you Dorks out there who think its easy making trails you should get out and help rather than bitching all the time. Instead of whinning about the trails come on out and help guys deliver fuel, do repairs, replace signs that more DORKS have stolen and see how much effort is required to get trails in place. Club members put a lot of time into trying to make trails and its frustrating as hell to read time after time how the clubs are useless and don't know what their doing. One last comment, cut Snoman some slack, while it may not be perfect at least we have an organization and no DORK has yet to come up with a better idea and work to implement!

I have ridden in Manitoba all my life and never ever bitched about the price of snowpasses or the trails because i always knew it was hard working voulnteers who made it all posible.
Because of my job i was often on the road and didn't have any spare time to comit to the clubs, now that i have the luxury of having the winters off i volunteer at our club(Here in Kelowna), help where i can and find it is the same ten or 20 people always doing the work (Our club has around 500 members).
It costs us $120.00 for the membership, and that is only good for our mountain, when you go to different areas or mountains to ride you pay around $15.00/day to use their trails.
The one thing nice about the Snowman system is the incorperation of the trailpass system, is it perfect, probably not, but it sure the hell beats the way it was years back.
As for the people who bitch that the volunteers are lazy, get your lazy asses out there and lend a hand.
Just because you bought a snowpass, the trails dont get automatically cleared, the wood supply's dont get magically replenished and trails dont get grommed by themselves, it takes VOLENTEERS.

yeah i'm all about helping out if i can..if any club in eastern manitoba needs welding repairs or to fabricate any thing i have my own equipment all you need to do is call me and if it is material that you need i can help with that too .. this is no joke i'm a welder with 16+years and can fix anything.. i can be reached any time in winnipeg @ 781-4664 this service will be my way of helping out to maintain our trails .. john

Thank you catdog 800, rotax man and wiser's de luxe.

I just returned home from spending 24 of the last 48 hours trying to make trails out of nothing and found this thread. As usual while I was out I had to endure watching dorks tear the trail to crap right behind the machine so no others would have a chance to enjoy it. Positive comments from people like you really help to encourage volunteers who question why they bother doing it so a thoughtless few can ruin it for all the others and then dare to complain on top of it all.

As a side note. The sign cost for 1 km of trail starts at $20.00 plus tax and goes up from there depending on how many extras are needed. Then there is the cost of fuel,equuipment maintainance,brushing and even bulldozing in some cases. $85.00 probably wouldn't pay for 1km of trail for 1 season. On top of it all these costs do not include volunteer time and effort to make it happen.

well there sir, this jab better not be at me as i cut as much wood as i could with my swede saw which i carry with me for that purpose, enough for my use and hopefully enough for the family or emergency that comes to the cabins after me, not to mention cleaning them up also! now if everyone would have this mentality we all would be better off!

Not quite sure why I even bother to respond but here goes. To all you whining, sniveling, ignorant, mentally challenged, perpetually lazy, morally deprived ASSHOLES who constantly complain about our trails..... have YOU volunteered any time lately? If not stick that license plate up your own asses.

Whoa everyone. Yes it's frustrating not to have the trails ready, but I have to comment that I was out last Saturday on the Snow Raiders trail along Hwy #1 east of Deacons... Very enjoyable ride. Well done Snow Raiders volunteers for what you had to work with.

For trying to help the situation see This post from a few days ago..

Thank you DRB as that is our trail. Our volunteers cleared two days before Christmas Eve and on New Years Eve to clean up the mess the winds wreaked havoc with on our trail to #15 accross the bush. That type of dedication gets lost in translation when the Snow Pass customer stands up and demands the trails should be groomed! All our trails except the one heading to #15 have been groomed twice now. The #15 trail needs more ice @ the creek to warrant the groomer crossing but it is now clear to travel for sleds.

i was told 59 was an amazing ride yesterday, 59! if 59 is good they must be doing something right,

I have no complaint about the trails,,dont use them,,but buy a pass anyway.
Here's the question people wonder about though,,and no I'm not slagging off the volunteers since I realize that it's the volunteers that do the work.
What does your snopass buy?

yes 59 south has been great{THANK YOU} been to st malo twice,

ditch riding a hwy can be boring, but ill do that all winter before i ever attempted going north to grand again,

but im sure ill recover from that, I HOPE,

A LOT of those trails are still closed, according to the snoman site anyway. WE NEED MORE SNOW, people, ffs. Honestly, I'm not much of a fan of grooming, because it has made it very easy to sled, and every dork with a mittfull of cash is out there doing it. The more dorks, the more rules and laws. 'Cause we all know a dork has zero common sense.

I don't know about the snow where you guys are, but hear there is no snow worth while grooming.

If the groomer went out, it would be just for the sake of saying the groomer went out.

It would make almost no difference to the trails.

wanted to ad ;

SX7R, great thing your doing ,volunteering like that, i hope some take you up on it,this winter , getting a groomer up and running, fast

then theres a post i read ,something like we should be getting our motor back for the groomer in DECEMEBER ?????????

I've got 500km on my sled so far this year and haven't seen any trail yet that wouldn't be scrapped to the dirt if a groomer went down it now, we need more snow! I have noticed the clubs have marked the trails and stocked up the shacks with wood while they are waiting to get out grooming. Keep up the good work and I know there will be great trails to ride on soon enough.

,

I was up at Pine Falls between Christmas and New Years, trails around Pine Falls area were decent but I guess there's more traffic by Lee River and the trails were crap. Trails from 59er to the Casino are groomed and I saw the groomer along 304 north of Stead. I guess they're out there but I don't think alot of trails are in shape to be groomed, I heard 3 guys went up to Bird Lake (I think), by Anson's Hut and broke through the ice in the marshes, had to be airlifted out.

I was up about 3 hours up number 6 this last weekend and everything in sight was groomed, of course the lakes and trails that go around water wernt but i still managed 300 miles and didnt need to ride the same route as the day befor. I dont like trails around the city anyways but some times i question some of the clubs here enthusiasm to get stuff done. I think of it this way i clear snow i get payed to clear snow if i were not to clear the apartment complex or the drive ways of my employers they would be darn mad at me. I get a bit ticked at snowman for not grooming there is still a ton of grooming that can go on with out on the lakes or river.

I just read this info given by a local club member, it kinda explains why people just need to relax a little about the grooming. It will get done when it can be done safely.

"Groomer was out on new years day,I don't know about trail conditions yet.We did drop the groomer through the ice about a week ago at rubber ducky. Joe said the water was about a foot up the cab.The unit was running under water for about 4 hrs,but apparently it's ok."

Last I checked,IMHO, the trail from Arborg to Gimli, doesn't have enough base to think about grooming yet.

Alright who is not shaking the snow globe?



And to those that do the volunteer to work on the trails Thanks!

When did these guys go through the ice in the marshes enroute to Bird Lake É

I have about 500 miles so far this year. All trails were terrible except 59 North was groomed once and 59 south was not bad.

Hwy 206 North of oakbank is extremly terrible. No reason they can't groom it.

By the time the trails are "OPEN", the season will be half over.

Hopefully we get more cold weather and more snow.

k guys i was there. there was only 2 guys that went through they didnt get air lifted out they could have but they wrote in the book that bombi came to the rescue to pull them out they left a note in the book at ansons hut me my uncle my dad and a few others all read it left by the guys who broke through and bombi is the new groomer. oh and did i say i went right over top and it was fine 6 of us did never broke through it should be better now with all the trafic out there

I heard it from a guy on Saturday, so probably it happened sometime between Christmas and New Years.



OK, good to hear they're OK, I didn't know if they had gotten hurt or what happened exactly.

eh theres more but it might be for a different story so im not going to say :P

Wow... there are a lot of guys out there that get there fur up real quick. I think if you read the original post post carefully, you would see that there isn't any bashing (maybe some smart ass intention) but the writers point was that as an end user the sledders only see that they are paying for a service that (apparently) does not happen because the shacks aren't ready, trails haven't been touched etc. and it seems like there are lot's of flaws that could be fixed. We all know that you can't groom when there is no snow and that the ice is thin. We all know that there are tons of other expenses that cost an organization like this....yadda yadda...

Focus on some of the other points made are valid (donations not being responded to, organization not being efficient etc) I moved to Manitoba 4 years ago and I have only been sledding for 3. I tried to participate in the sport more by e-mailing snoman with ideas, even volunteering....no response from them. I think something that could help the organization is keeping it's members (and by being forced to buy a pass by law, we all members) in the loop. Post a weekly update as to whats happening. It's kind of embarassing for an outsider who is visiting snomans website and follows a link to one of those smaller clubs and the site hasn't been updated in a year.

Maybe snoman could even post a year ender report on what happened with the finances (I'm not talking about full financial disclosure) but if it was a crappy year and not much grooming happened, were did the money get spent. I have to wonder, in the short time I've been here, I have seen clubs shut down and sell thier equipment, yet they are building new cabins in other areas. Why? maybe the cash distribution system is flawed. Why is grooming done by volunteers? Is there not enough money from sno passes to cover grooming costs? Does all that money (I read somewhere around a million per year) only cover gas costs and equipment? I think if people had a better understanding as to how this whole thing worked, they'd complain less. Maybe a pay to use system like BC is better and wastes less money.

Just so everyone knows I actually hardly ride trails, I am a ditch banger, boondocker, but I still buy a pass every year to support all the rest of the stuff that the pass pays for. Every so often I do a trail ride and yeah... more often than not when I do hit the trails, they kinda look like a snocross course. Just adding a few points for people to think about and it is only my opinion.

Our club could use some help to get some more firewood cut at Jim Longbottom's Place. There's lots of dead wood near the shack from the trail widening two winters ago. Our volunteers are maxed out. If anyone is looking for some way to help out, that's what we need right now. Any volunteers?

You've really got some nerve calling volunteers lazy asses. I thought I knew you better than that! Isn't that the kettle calling the pot black?

Same story every year at about this time... but if everyone would just relax a little, trail conditions will improve quickly, through the hard work and dedication of all the terrific volunteers mind you, not by magic.

I rode out near Carman on Christmas Eve and you wouldn't even know that they have a trail system out there, no signs, no sign of grooming, but loads of snow that was still soft and overall the riding was loads of fun. Then I rode from Grand Beach to Powerview on the weekend, some signs of work starting already, the Northstar was in great shape (as it usually is) but #1 East was pretty rough.

In just a few more weeks most of the clubs will have their trails in great shape, just give them a chance.

yeah i was wondering if it takes time or we just had bad weather this year but i guess it will take time to improve

Both sides are right.

Everybody please read this.

The groomers should be out on land trails. There is lots of snow. That is good marketing and customer service. Now the groomers should not be out on any water yet (no lakes, rivers creeks or swamps) because they will go through, happens almost every year and it is a waste of resources and very dangerous. Don't care if people complain don't go out until the trails are packed, there has been a month of cold temperatures and the ice is 12 inches thick at least. Most trail work on land trails should be done in the late summer to late fall to brush, cut and stock wood etc. It si better temperature. Of course this can't be done for water and swamt trails i.e. has to wwait until there is snow and ice for a good while. Be patient.

Now for people who complain all clubs are short members and especially volunteers as every club only as about 6-12 people who do 95% of all the club work. Stop bitching and go volunteer for one day or one morning or one afternoon to trail brushing and signing in the fall early winter. Come on go to your local club or the club you ride on the trails the most and help out, and you clubs feed these people when they volunteer with pizza or some other trail food and have a party at the end just for volunteers and feed them for their work and don't nobody bitch about that it is only fair. They don't get paid and are taking time out of their lives to help your out enjoy riding on the trails.

Now clubs and SnoMan report on all trail conditions by Thursday night or Friday morning so people can safewly plan their rides. No exceptions. If clubs miss the deadline fine them $50 for first offence and $100 for each additional offence. Also SnoMan keep your website up to date always including Borad Minutes and agenda to keep sledders fully informed on all important snomobile matters. All sledders go to the SnoMan website regularly and get informed about snowmobiling issues in your area.

Now go ride and work in peace and stop bitching and work together. That means listening to each other and not just defending yourselfs. Both sides have valid points so for crying out loud listen and understand each others point of view.

If you follow the above advice everybody wins. That is the world of the sled head, spread the world.

I know that in Northern communities that have summer ferry access, or short winter roads they flood the ice to help thicken it. I'm wondering if this would help on short stretches of swamp, or river/creek crossings? I know it's not feasible for lake runs, but it might help get some trails open sooner. Does anyone have any knowledge about this type of flooding, and if you do consider forwarding it to snoman, or the clubs.

I realize this would require even more volunteer time, and might not give the desired results on fast moving water ways.

Just a suggestion.

they flood here also.

By here I assume you mean The Pas etc. as you have listed on your avitar.

Does it work for the clubs, or is it for cars?

We flooded the Brokenhead River crossing last Friday. The south side only had about 4" of ice. We need at least 12-14" to cross with the BR. Warm temps this weekend will not help.

i have no clue about the trails in the pas. my sleds in swan river and they flood creeks and crossings when needed.

sorry to piss you off there dave, but for some clubs it seems like the truth, they do the bare minimum to collect the most they can, and do it for years on end! not directed at your club by no means as you guys work your asses off, and the clubs who run the trails we ride do a great job also.

but i think it is time to change the way we groom our trails as burn out is happening as you know, maybe pay a guy to run the groomers as the trail system is now getting so large?? maybe incorporate more clubs together to save costs on grooming, maybe cut back on the # of snowman executive in the office and make it run more efficiently? how about getting the government to give clubs a break on fuel costs? why not allow the use of farm gas, purple, to run the groomers, that alone will save a tonne of cash!! why not open the books up and see who gets what and what it is spent on? how much of our trail pass cash actually gets back to the clubs?

read farther down at my posts and you will see I cut some wood at the shacks i stopped at so someone else may enjoy a little heat from a fire, and also cleaned then up, they were a darn mess! but you can only cut so much wood with a compact swede saw till you have enough, but hopefully its enough for a few families to enjoy. now if everyone had an attitude like this to replenish the wood you burn and clean up there would be no issue, right??

by the way both i and Nancy's dad are going to a few of the shacks in the area tomorrow or Saturday to cut some wood and clean up/repair a couple shacks in the area to make then more usable, are we asking for anything, no, just trying to help out. and just for the record he has been cutting the wood for the shacks near his place for years and even brushes the trail when need be!

my dads cousin went through on the trail by anson in the marsh and he did get air lifted out his friend owns a helicopeter and lifted his rev8 and his friends vector. both were airlifted bck to cape coppermine,