ok guy's as stated before i'am a tour guide at twin brook's and to start the season out i've had a couple run in's on the trail with what i'll call bandit's. PLEASE IF YOU COME ACROSS A TOUR THAT YOU END UP FOLLOWING FOR A WHILE PLEASE DO NOT PASS THEM FIRST IT'S TECHNICALLY ILLEGAL SECOND NOT SMART AS ALOT OF THESE FOLK'S ARE BEGINNER'S AND GET THE SHIT SCARED OUT OF THEM WHEN SOMEONE GOE'S FLYING BY AND EITHER CAUSE'S A WRECK WITH THE PASSING SLED OR END UP OFF THE TRAIL WE HAVE MIRROR'S WE ARE SUPPOSE TO USE TO SEE BEHIND US TO SEE YOU AND GET TO A SAFE PASSING SPOT I WILL STOP AND LET YOU AROUND US AND NOW THE THIRD REASON IS ON COMING TRAFFIC YOU PASS WITH ONCOMING TRAFFIC AND YOU HAVE THREE IN A WRECK SO PLEASE DO NOT PAS THE TOUR'S ON THE TRAIL'S IF YOU PASS YOU WILL BE REPORTED THINK SAFETY HERE'S WHAT OUR SLED'S ARE SO IF YOU SEE ME FROM BEHIND STAY THERE TILL I GET TO A SAFE PLACE TO LET YA PASS THANK YOU VERY MUCH HERE'S A PIC OF OUR TOUR SLED'S WE HAVE ORANGE FLAG'S YOU CAN'T MISS US THANK'S AGAIN

HERE'S ME ON MY TOUR SLED

are you in the market of buying any more of those sleds

I got a 2005 edge tour just like the one on the picture for sale
only has like 145 miles on it..
340 Fan

first off chub's guys run the best tours. most of our nightmare's with tours have been from the other guys.

now on to passing, please show me where it says you cant pass someone on a tour sled.

last time i checked i can pass ANYONE as long as it's done at a safe and reasonable speed.

there is no valid reason why i should be stuck behind a tour or anyone for a WHILE

if you keep your group tight, you'd see us and let us by at the first good spot.

most tours are not run TIGHT and don't have a guide brining up the rear so the tour gets spread out.
by the time you see us we've passed all the strageler's and worked our way through most of the group.

much like lots of people on there own sleds most of the people on a tour have no business being on a sled on the trails.

they should be on a one way closed trail. they don't seem to understand or care people are on sleds coming in the other direction.

we always give everyone a chance to let us by, weather it's one sled or ten.

most of these people dont stop at intersections, dont stop at stop signs and randomly move from one side of the trail to the other
often giving us enough room to pass them on the right.

then again this is why we don't ride the trails on the weekends.

have fun, stay safe and ride on the right side of the trail!

you started off with some good points....but you lost it when you said that!! THAT IS THE MOST RIDICULOUS THING I have read in a long time!!! when and where did you "BEGIN" snowmobiling! i have had the good fortune to start when i was 5 years old but there are some people who for their own reasons didnt start until now. how is anyone who may be interested in getting into our sport know if they will like it or not? and who are you to tell anyone they should be on a closed trail? are you gods gift? your name even indicates who you think should be on the trails! lmao!! your probably one of those "Blair Morgan" wanna be's who hit my buddy head on last year!!! you my friend are a poor spokesman for our sport!

Tours OVER-USE and ABUSE the trails, tour operators should be responsible to groom the trails multiple times during the day, just my .02.

thats why i dont ride in or around "Bumpford" VT. lol

I could say the same thing about OUT A STATERS...

Oh boy - this one is about to turn into one of those ugly 15-pagers.....

I know plenty of vermonters that abuse the trails too.

Idiots aren't exclusive to any particular group. Every group has its fair share of idiots. Including this thread.

I was not pointing fingers at in/out of staters(flatlanders, lol), i was just stating the facts, tours do beat the trails to death and i just feel that they (tour outfitters) should restore the trails they are making money from.

not really...if you think about it, tour groups are agonizingly slow! its the rest of us who tear up the trails! lol (hey at least im honest!)

Passing is a touchy subject. There's the right way and the wrong way to pass. Some people are stubburn or don't know enough to slow down and wave you on by. What scares the crap outa me is when I feel I'm going at a pretty good clip and ZOOM a rider from no where passes me. Its like holy shit, freaken guys flyen. Personally I wait it out until the person see's me and waves me on or wait for an intersection. If riden with friends and they start passing I do the samething wait for the right time or an intersection.

When following someone slow and you can't pass we ussually fool around. I call it devolping your riding skills like stand on our seats, legs up on the cowling, ride side saddle, make believe your pushing off with your feet.... its all in fun.

We'll be reported if we pass the tour group until you pull over? I don't think so - I am with JUSTFORME - show me the regs on that?

I think all will be well if you keep your group together and pull off at the first available safe spot and let the following sleds past....otherwise those sleds will take the first opportunity to get by the tour. That is just the way it is. I think we generally know the tour routes if you are up there alot and I try to ride on different trails as much as possible to avoid such meetings.

Don't take me wrong I think these tours are great to get people into the sport......it is just how to interact with experienced riders on the same trail.

Just my opinion but snowmobile tours should ride on there own property, the little extra they have to pay for Vast doesn't even come close to the way the trails are left after they ride back and fourth on the same 10 mile stretch all day long, or the money they made for that hour ride. I ride on Mt. Tabor all year and believe me unless you hit the "tour trail" Sunday morning by 8:00 am. it will be all blown off. So instead of telling us to slow down and making laws about passing you, why don't you buy a groomer and use it as the caboose on your money train.

almost every saftey related topic comes down to two words: Stay Right.
i dont' care if you ride fast or slow, where you're from, or if you have 1 days' experience or a lifetime. if everybody is on their own side of the trail (unless passing in a safe area) not much can go wrong.
anyone who can not stay right for any reason does not belong out there.

People who are part of a snowmobile tour have just as much right to enjoy those trails as the rest of us. There's nothing wrong with having tours on the trails. Who the hell would want to take a tour on private property that has very limited trails and range? It's up to the tour guides to keep their group under control and to get their crew out of the way when necessary. If a tour guide doesn't want faster riders passing, then he needs to get his people out of the way of the faster riders. If he's running a tour with a bunch of misguided riders with no clue what they're doing, where they're going, and how to stay in line, then he should expect people to pass them and weave in and out of the tour.

It's no different than coming up behind a slow driver on the road. It would be nice if that slow driver would get the hell out of the way, but that's a fantasy that rarely comes true. The rest of the time, it's up to the faster driver to wait until there's a safe place to pass, or otherwise just suck it up and start enjoying the scenery. Why would the trail be any different?

I've been cought many times behind tour groups. While none of us like poking along, I equate it to being on a motorcycle on a tight twisty road. The desire is to ride briskly, within our limits, and have a good time. Suddenly, there is a rolling roadblock with no passing zones in sight. Sometimes when possible they will pull over and let us pass, other times, they wont move. Thats when its time to take a pee/drink/stretch break. We stand beside our bikes, talk about the ride, take pictures, ect and just relax. 10 min later we get back on the bikes and fly down the road, relaxed and enjoying the ride. No roadblocks in sight, just having a good time.

On the trails, most of the tour groups will pull over. Sure it may be a mile or so, but have you ever really watched the people on those sleds? Many have no clue as to what they are doing, use the whole width of the trail, bouncing off rocks and trees like there are playing pinball. I dont want to risk my sled or health passing them. I wait, or veer off at the next trail. Someday those newbies may be going down the trail on thier very own sled. I'd rather they see and learn safe and courtious riding habits and apply that to their own riding style, than the aggressive hell bent for speed and mileage style that we see all too often in the Woodford area.

I'm now donning my Nomex fire suit and am ready to be flamed!

Just one word S.P.O.R.S. (stupid people on rental sleds).

Tour groups should not be on VAST trails!!! All we hear about is how vast is on private property and dont do this and dont do that,keep the land owner happy. But its allright to make money touring trails on land onwed by someone else. And Vast in a non profit group but the tour groups sure do make a profit.
Also why does everybody else have to take a 6 hour saftey course to ride the vast trails? Must be the tour guides are really good riders so no saftey course is needed when your paying to ride.

While getting "stuck" behind a tour of 10+ sleds is highly annoying, it isn't half as bad as dealing with the touch-hole Blair Morgan wannabe's that are always in the middle of the trails riding completely out of control.

When I was in Woodford on Tuesday, we were behind a group of 4 self-acclaimed snowcrosser's and the last guy in the group was riding completely on the left side of the trail - even in corners. It appeared as if he was trying to avoid the mist and snow kick-up from his 3 ego-maniacs in front of him.

How we treat the tour groups reflect directly on how we are perceived by the general public. These people are landowners, politicians and business men and women. Any one tour rider may be trying to decide whether or not to buy a sled. The same goes for rental units.
They may be a nusiance, but if you present the sport in a negative manner, they may go home and close their property or pass more laws that place more restraints on the sport.
Yes, they can kill a trail in a couple of hours, but so can 2 or 3 idiots that need to blast out of every corner. The tour outfits that I know do pay for extra grooming. They want a positive experience so the customer will give good feedback and pass on the same.
I try to avoid the trails used by the tour guides, because I don't like crawling either. And I get by when it's okay to do so. I didn't know it was illegal to pass a tour group or to mix in with the group. It makes sense. There's no way in hell I'd want to put my sled between 2 first time riders.
If we show these folks that we are a bunch of impatient jerks, then the next ride we take may be our last. The tours have to stay within a confined area, so they are limited by how inconvenient they can be. We have over 4000 miles of trail to ride, so instead of getting upset, take a deep breath, be patient, and when you are able to pass, do it with a smile and a wave.
You'll be perceived as a decent person and then avoid that trail in the future.
Be an ambassador to the sport not a liability.
We just need to all get along.
Merry Christmas

Amen! I avoid the power lines like the plague on Saturdays because there's always some idiot flying through the air over every hill, and usually in the center of the trail.

i'm not nor have i claimed to be anyones spokesman. these are my opinions no more no less!

anyone who cant stay on the right side of the trail has no business riding on the trails!

right turns left turns or going down a straight at 100+ stay on the right side of the trail!

was your buddy on his side of the trail when he got hit?

anytime there's new snow take a long hard look at the tracks your laying.

turn around and run the other direction and see if your going to run over your own tracks. more than likely you are.

look for the tracks farther too the right than you even dare to take your sled.
if your in the woopford area chances are high there mine.

we were in fresh snow monday morning all the way down airport rd then to arlington road. there was one set of tracks coming from arlington. the guy on the sled would had hit me in almost every one of his left hand turns. on our way back i couldn't even get close to my tracks from our ride out.


it's very simple and it applies to most everyone reading this. YOU NEED TO RIDE FARTHER TO THE RIGHT SIDE OF THE TRAIL!

it's not rocket science.

Well, I suppose I was guilty of that on Sunday too. When I'm out there on 100% virgin powder with no other riders, I suppose I'll cheat a little bit, especially when I'm going slow enough to easily get back to my side whenever necessary. But during typical higher speed trail riding... I'm stuck to the right side.

[quote name='justforme' date='Dec 20 2007, 04:54 PM' post='3386575']
i'm not nor have i claimed to be anyones spokesman. these are my opinions no more no less!

anyone who cant stay on the right side of the trail has no business riding on the trails! very good point
right turns left turns or going down a straight at 100+ stay on the right side of the trail!

was your buddy on his side of the trail when he got hit? oh hell yeah! it was terrible... the dude came around the corner way out of control, came across and drove both sleds into the woods! luckily no one was hurt. the other guy got a ticket for unsafe operation of a snowmobile.
anytime there's new snow take a long hard look at the tracks your laying.

turn around and run the other direction and see if your going to run over your own tracks. more than likely you are.

look for the tracks farther too the right than you even dare to take your sled.
if your in the woopford area chances are high there mine. i always have my right ski n fresh stuff or just about off the trail....I too was hit head on by an asshole 3 years ago who was speeding on my side of the trail.
we were in fresh snow monday morning all the way down airport rd then to arlington road. there was one set of tracks coming from arlington. the guy on the sled would had hit me in almost every one of his left hand turns. on our way back i couldn't even get close to my tracks from our ride out.
it's very simple and it applies to most everyone reading this. YOU NEED TO RIDE FARTHER TO THE RIGHT SIDE OF THE TRAIL!

it's not rocket science.
[/quote

i was not sticking up for the riding skills and ability of "renters"..... i was just saying they have every right we do to be out on the trails.

What r u still doing here? Arent u suppose 2 be in canaan! Hey tommy boy u gonna be up for new years? Give me a call.

naaa i leave as soon as i get out of work tomorrow. i have to friggin work new years eve so it kinda blows that whole new years eve riding! sucks!

What would you expect from someone with a screen name justforme? How dare beginners ride on his trails.

well i got alot more response than expected now what make's it illegal to pass were do's it say that right here are the word's STAY TO RIGHT OF TRAIL /RIDE SAFE AND RESONSIBLELY when i get passed your on the left side of the trail second thank's i like to believe we are THE BEST TOUR COMPANY OUT THERE we have had some ass's working there but we are weeding them out and as for following a tour i ALWAY'S WATCH FOR PERSONAL RIDER'S IN MY MIRROR'S TO GET YOU AROUND ME AS I WOULD NOT LIKE IT EITHER IF I WAS A BLAIR MORGAN WANT A BE I'AM THIRD WE AS TOUR'S TEAR UP THE TRAIL'S YEA RIGHT WHEN YOU GO 60 AND HIT A HILL IN THE POWER LINE'S AND LAND AND THE THROTTLE WIDE OPEN THAT'S WHAT MAKE'S THE BUMP'S NOT A 15 SLED TOUR GOING 15 MILE'S AN HOUR AND YES THESE PEOPLE ALOT OF THEM ARE FIRST TIME RIDER'S AND THEY ARE ALL OVER THAT'S WHY I SLOW THEM DOWN TO KEEP THEM ON THERE SIDE I'AM NOT HERE TO MAKE ENEMY'S I'AM HERE TO BE SAFE AND HAVE FUN JUST LIKE THE REST WE ALL HAVE THE RIGHT TO RIDE AND NOW TO TOUR'S NOT ALLOWED ON VAST TRAIL'S AS WE MAKE MONEY OFF THEM WHAT DID YOU PAY I BET NOT EVEN A 10TH OF WHAT IS SPENT FOR OUR REGISTRATION/VAST/AND INSURANCE VAST STICKER'S FOR ARE FLEET ALONE COST OVER TEN GRAND SO WE DEFINETLY PAY FOR OR TIME ON THESE TRAIL'S AS WELL AS OTHER'S AND THEN SOMETHING WAS STATED ABOUT CERTIFICATION I HAVE BEEN CERTIFIED AS A TOUR GUIDE THROUGH THE STATE OF VERMONT ALL GUIDE'S MUST BE CERTFIED THANK'S TO ALL THAT AGREE WITH THIS AS A SAFETY ISSUE

Well Said Nail!!

I left Fairfax last nite to St Albans Bay around 5:00 pm rode around 7 miles on perfect groomed trails. Met 2 sleds flying towards us. Guess what the trails were shredded. Every corner was ripped to shit. Maybe we could all stand to be a little more considerate.

ok so now we know there is NO LAW saying you cant pass tour sleds.

tours and most new riders DESTROY the trail. it's all the stop and go and the go tends to include lots of throttle which makes a big pile of snow THAT ONLY GETS BIGGER


i wish there was a way to break trail to the fire tower so all these stop and go douch bags would get stuck on the first hill.
then the trail wouldn't be DESTROYED by the tours and the others who stop and go all the way up.

tour sleds dont pay shit, compared to the damage the riders with NO CLUE how to ride doo over and over EVERY DAY.

if you think fast riders landing on the gas destroy the trails, you truly have no clue grasshopper.

other than the stop and go riders the guys who think there fast and are locking up the brakes to change direction mid corner are destroying the trails. there not making the trails in to you typical woopford ride there removing all the snow from the corners and making it glare ice.


every time you or your group start out go easy and look back, you CAN leave without leaving a big pile of snow.

dont bunch up and doo a bunch of stop and go, what do you suppose makes all the woops on the way to the fire tower.

ANYONE WHO CANT STAY ON THE RIGHT SIDE OF THE TRAIL SHOULD NOT BE ALOWED TO RIDE A SLED ON THE TRAILS!

and no way no how should tours be going to the firetower they DESTROY the trail

Hey brotha!!! Give me a call on the cell when you are up so we can hook up for a ride. My friend (Vermonster) and I went riding yesterday up near Sheldon, Richford, Swanton and Fairfax....trails were awesome. this the best riding in many, many years. Heading out today from home...maybe head down to Chittenden Dam area.

Do they actually bring some of the tours up to the firetower?

As has already been stated, your name says it all.

The good thing is that these people " with no clue" are riding in a controlled atmosphere and that they were smart enough to realize their limits. Unlike the idiots that are airborne on a trail. Do they have control? Do they always land on the right side? Fat chance on that.

I'm not a fast rider and usually ride 2-up, so I may be one of those that piss you off. I allow riders to pass when I can, but it's not always immediate.
There has to be a happy compromise where everyone can ride and be happy. The trail hot dogs need to take their habits to the sno-cross circuits and the slow pokes( like myself) need to allow the rest to pass when it can be done safely.
If the trail racing continues, and we know it will, speed limits will become mandatory. Then any nice long field will be a radar trap instead of a great place to open it up. If a rider feels the need, take it to the race track. If you are man enough to play fair. If you want people to appreciate the antics, that's the best place.
NO ONE likes an idiot flying at them, airborne at warp speed. The TMA isn't a pit pass. You may be under control, but I guarantee you won't convince a member of law enforcement that airborne is " reasonable and prudent" operation.
Every sled that travels on a trail does damage to the trail. The faster you go, the more damage. Grooming will only do so much. The rest is just plain common sense and safe riding practices.
It's amazing how the nicest folks turn into idiots when they sit on a sled. Don't treat the nice people like idiots just because they don't want to race. They are snowmobilers too. Give them a break. When you smack that tree, and you eventually will, guess who'll come up behind you and probably save your life, when they should crack the throttle and blast you with ice like you just did to them. Every tour guide is trained in first aid. Treat them like your life depends on it, because it may.
Ride safe.

yes

i don't care how fast or slow your ride stay on the right side of the trail.

and have a great Christmas!

As a tour guide of close to twenty years in Pittsburg, N.H. I read this thread several times and saw good points on both sides of the fence, but couldn't help but get the feeling that the "motorheads" feel that they have a "divine" right to blow by anything at will. Tours come in many different descriptions and I like to tell my clients that I will adjust the pace and difficulty with the experience level of the group I am leading. I personally spend as much time looking in my rear view mirrors than I do looking forward and when I see anyone appear at the tale of my group I instantly pull over when safe and let them pass and most of the time those riders will give me a thumbs up from noticing and extending them the "courtesy" of yielding. I prefer to do this for a number of reasons, the biggest of which is rookies do get the shit scared out of them when passed unexpectedly and it is traumatic for a few of these people who just don't deserve to be frightened because they are inexperienced.

As far as tour groups being any more or less responsible for tearing up trails, I have to laugh at that perception, because most rookies are very tentative and move very slowly until they build up a little confidence. The "Blair Wannabees" are a much bigger danger anywhere across the snow belt and are becoming more of a threat all the time.

VAST is not much different than any system in that we can expect riders of all ability and experience levels to be out there together trying to "have fun" on the system. To get all intense about being held up by a large group tour or not is a very selfish attitude, and makes a statement that you are better than those "slow travelers". All trail systems are funded by a mix of people who expect to enjoy the outdoors on a "magic carpet" on snow why don't we let them!

Patience! We were all rookies once! ( even Blair Morgan)

Merry Christmas!

pathfinder58

Yes because the majority of new riders that take part in these tours probably pin it to the bars, you're an idiot. I highly doubt that many of these people actually give it much throttle to begin with. I know when I first started riding I was easy on the throttle. Werent you the one that also said tour groups dont stop for stop signs and intersections? So...then where do they stop and start?

WELL SAID!

myself and two other riders encountered a tour group on 7n north of rt 30 yesterday, the tour consisted of a leader, ONE tour sled, and the follow up sled, the tour person was having an extrememly hard time and the rear rider stopped as soon as we came up behind him and said to me, "we will be out of your way in one second" i thought that was pretty nice and they pulled over and let us by. no problem.
i think part of the problem in the woodford area is that there are a lot of sleds and a little trail, it get's quite congested down that way, from rt 30 south, i have ridden these trails for the past 30 years and i have seen a huge increase in traffic. that being said, i guess it all boils down to the fact that we as sledders, have to relax, enjoy and share the trails with riders of all ages and degrees of skill. i know it's fun to rip down the trail and feel that rush! but, remember, there are others that are out there too! the life you save may be your own?
happy trails, and happy holidays
dave

Thanks for giving so many peolpe a safe introduction to the sport.
Yours is not an easy job, but very rewarding. I've seen the smiling faces on the tour riders, in Stowe, and it's a real treat. I know you guys are Ceritfied Safety instructors. For those that aren't aware of it, young riders don't need to take the course if they are under the supervision of a certified instructor. It's like driver training.
What the hot doggers don't realize is that there is so much they're missing. Riding beyond reason will be costly , but taking the time to experience the gifts of nature around them is priceless.
Keep showing your customers the beauty of your surroundings. Their first impression is the most important one.
Merry Christmas

first of all these tour's don't tear up the trail's the way a person acting like blair morgan do's in no way shape or form look at the power line's at the crater's after every hill there made by people flieing through the air and landing with there throttle wide open. and stop and go the only time i stop is in case of emergency,and intersection,s or to let rider's pass at a safe location and to call me grasshopper ok what ever i'm not here to call name's or any of that i'am just trying to be SAFE it is not safe to pass a 6 sled tour in a corner no matter what that make's it illegal as it is unsafe riding point blank and here is a challenge for you blair morgan type try riding with one hand at 35 miles an hour through the trail's from twin brook's to the resevoir and back and i will garantee you will not stay on your side of the trail the whole way i've benn riding since 1974 and i'am very experienced BUT do to trail condition's you as well as me can not do this and to the pathfinder thank's for your insight glad to here from ya and now i will say no more as i don't work there anymore as of yesterday tired of being a slave to a jew and as far as the fire tower we are not allowed on the secondary trail's with tour sled's i have never been there with a tour and never would as they do not have the experiance to ride that trail think about it you say they are all over a 6 to 8 feet wide trail and you expect they would stay on a trail that is one sled wide mister you have alot to learn

this is a sport of unlimited variables, i somewhat agree with saying that it doesnt matter how fast your going as long as your under control and are on your side of the trail. the problem lays when you have, wildlife, downd trees, sticks, broken down sleds that make it so you can possibly be on your side of the trail then the guy goin 100 on his side of the trail scares the shit outa you.... i was one of those guys saying that id beat anybody and be undercontrol and to the right, being able to stop on a dime till i relized first accidents have no holidays.... it doesnt have to be you that makes the mistake, and you cant control mother nature. ive changed the way i ride due to the fact that you dont know whos comming at you ever and it doesnt matter how much we bitch and complain theres always going to be someone out there who doesnt give a damn about respecting landowners and other users of the trail, including tours... in my eyes there the future to oursport and the gateway to many newcommers and possibly a chance to change the look of snowmobiles in the unenlightened's eyes.....

going with the follow you tracks and see if you can come back opposite and not hit them is right on.... stay far right till you have clear view and ride it out and get right asap for the next one.... bottom line is over 10,000 miles on my f7 and no accidents and many times ive had to go off the trail. around people on the opposite side and weave threw trees to avoid mr hibbert himself, along with blair... its the main reason i dont like riding bymyself... not one of them stopped and helped me get outa the ditch or the woods, or made sure im okay, knowing i had literally 1 foot of trail....

thats my 2 cents and as u can see i havnt been on here in a longgg time fellas have a good season.... looks like im one of the original 10 now ur up to what 100,000 members!

Most of the folks I met yesterday and today in the NEK were either riding down the center of the trail or on the left side.

any body who says tours tear up the trails... needs to be banded from VAST.
It's the moron's that blast through every corner, gunning it from a stop, building up moguls.
they should have more VAST police to remove TMA stickers from moron;s like the above poster.

Very impressive that you realize all you have said at only 18! spread the word to your peers!

But the pin it and spin it corner to corner trail heros get a free pass for destroying the trails all freakin day. Right.

my reasoning is if the tour infront of you is going to slow...pass them as long as you are as respectful and safe as can be. dont do it in a blind corner and or a blind hill and there are many of those out there. also, as a tour guide if you notice a huge line forming behind you it would prolly be easier to just have the group let the other riders by and that will eliminate your issue of people passing your group at high speeds. out there its everyones game and as long as everyone plays fair, itll be fun.

I hate to reopen a can of worms, but this thread dealing with trail damage done by both tour groups and yahoos needs to be simplified a bit. Yes, both parties do some element of damage, but to think that a tour group of ten poking along at a paltry 15 mph poses a threat to the safety of all of us is mistaken. The yahoos flying around corners (staying LEFT) and jumping blind spots on the power lines are the real danger. Let's face it, our sport needs to clean up its image in many ways. The more idiots that are on the trails will ultimately close down the trails for the rest of us. I would imagine that a landowner would rather have 100 sleds operate across his land in a friendly and courteous manner than one yahoo using his land.