Willing to bet it stays for good. What next? Starting to feel good I sold my fast sled and am opting out for a regular ride to go ice fishing.


http://www.greenbaypressgazette.com/apps/p...1/71113096/1978



mps

well next is the 55 at daytime of coarse!!

a**wholes, DNR = Darn Near Russian!

Hey now... without them I dont think snowmobiling or ATV nor any other outdoor sport would be around...
Oh and this 55 mph rule at night doesn't bother be one bit.. Never hit above 55 at night...

The 55mph limit at night is fine with me, but a daytime limit is another story.

I can see posted limits in high-traffic (congested) areas, but otherwise there is no need to limit the daytime speeds.

If the boy racers want to tear it up, take it to the track or their private land.

Ride the trails, and be responsible doing so-otherwise we all know what can happen-trail closures,more laws & law enforcement.

Many people have worked very hard to get trail systems to where they are today, only takes a few to ruin it!

The road our cabin is on has a 25mph vehicle speed limit sign and a 35 mph snowmobile speed limit sign. How messed up is that.

Got pulled over doing 68 at night on a road that was a trail. DNR said the speed limit is the same as the viehical speed limit witch was 40. Said it was like that on all roads a with a posted speed limit. Gave us a warning, how you ask he pulled us over. He was sitting in a drive way behine the snobanks with a radar gun, then pulled out sideways blocking the road. Anyway my 2 cents, my point of view is catch me if you can!

I am officially done with snowmobiling now, The 900 Switchback is going to be listed in the classified section for sale.

With the already abusive DNR out there, I will not tolerate being harrassed about traveling over 55 MPH at night, the fine schedule reaches $478.00 for a simple 20 MPH over citation. the rules for issuing a ticket to a snowmobiler are very relaxed compared to highway infractions with no way of winning in court. At least with a highway speding ticket the prosecutor must prove the radar was properly calibrated and the operator was properly trained, it ain't so with the DNR.

So, the sleds are going to be sold, this is ultimately the end of the sport that I used to enjoy.

No this isn't a hasty decision, I was very concerned about getting tagged last season. and I Can not ride comfortably with this feeling I might get nailed so it is no longer enjoyabe for me to ride. and why participate in a sport that always makes you concerned with needing to hand out near $500.00 for riding safely within your limits in an area that is safe to ride at that speed.

it's been nice,
PM me if your interested in the sled, it has been cared for very well and never beaten.

A 55 mph speed limit at night doesnt bother me. If any of you racer wannabes feel the need to push you limits, thats fine, but take it to the track. That way when you crash and burn you wont have to wait long for the ambulance to arrive and you wont endanger the lives of people who are out just trying to have a good time.

i would at least wait until you get a ticket

do want you want but i think that you would really regret that decision. the thread in the general forum about this sums it up pretty good. the guys that live in states that already have the limit are wondering what us wisconsinites are getting so worked up over?!?! i hate to see anyone give up on snowmobiling no matter how different our opinions are. i have lost a large chunk of my riding party to mother nature and i would hate to see losing anyone to the DNR! hang in there.

some responses are comical....

Nobody says you have to drive 55 at night, just be willing to accept the consequences if you get caught and held liable. No different than the free way.

personally I have a fairly fast sled, and its not very often I open it up at n ight time. Even on the lake there is too many variables which you can see.... but hey thats just me.

Sorry I think they have gone after the wrong problem, get the drunks off the trails and most sensible riders will ride in their limits when sober. And no DNR is out of control they should be a private company instead of state and they will make better choices because of money, but that won't happen
I can't believe you never hit 55 at night while on a lake or railroad bed??

not even a lake or a railroad bed !!! U be lucky to see me hit 75 on a rail road grade during the day... If I know the lake well enough I'll might top it out.. which is 92 mph... not a speed demon..

How about you be smart and put a radar detector on your sled like some of us have... You get a radar reading you turn around go back a 1/2 mile and go back through under 55 mph... Oh yeah this is a proven fact... if you have numbers on your sled they dont even talk to you... Happen with me and of my buddies and few guys from the dealer...

The DNR is using Instant-on, handheld, KA-Band radar units, If your detector goes off, your already nailed! end of story. they got your speed before you could even react.
And if not radar, they will say they did a "Visual Estimate". (even though an accurate visual estimate at night is impossible)
if they decided to use laser instead of radar, I might not quit the sport, you can jam laser speed detection equipment very effectively and legally. while intentional jamming of radar is a federal offense.

it just isn't worth it anymore, more laws are enacted every year going after everything but the main cause of deaths, Stupidity & alcohol! both seperately & together.

Didn't you just post a few paragraphs back that you never exceed 55? why would you use a radar detector then?

if you are going to give up snowmobiling for that law when you hardly go over 55 at night any way. the sport does not need you in it. it really is not that big of an issue. do you still own a car? there are speed limits on the roads.

Only when your going through the slush on Castle Rock thinking you might go through, hey Kevin??
Guess who?? shoot me a PM.

Thanks for pointing out he can't keep his story straight and he said you can't get over 75mph on a railroad bed trail. Oh well, enough repling to his messages for me.

I have been harrassed enough by the DNR, they won this battle! I quit, I do not want to play their games anymore!
they do not like snowmobiles, and I am quiting the sport because they have now made it almost totally unenjoyable for me to ride in this state.

Why is it unenjoyable?
Seeing private land torn up by people riding off-trail, seeing trash left laying around along the trails. People with overly loud sleds making me look bad because I am now grouped into their obnoxious behavior just by association. And I do not need to get tagged with an obnoxiously expensive ticket for safely crossing a lake over 55MPH at night while the drunks are allowed to go on their merry little drunken way with no problems from the DNR as long as they keep it under 55.

It's not like I need to have the throttle pinned WFO all the time when I ride, but if I want to do that across a lake, I can no longer do it without breaking a law and possibly getting ticketed. it just isn't worth it to me anymore. I have better places to spend $500.00 then to put it in the DNR's pockets so they can misappropriate it to some other useless cause that does not address the real issues.

you are not only letting the DNR win, you are letting the drunk trespassing a$$holes with the loud pipes win too!

good luck with your next hobby and i hope that you love it more than you did snowmobiling and can stick with it in rough times. goodbye.

another funny thing about this law is that most of the younger guys i talk to really don't care, it is the older guys that are freaking out?!?! i would have thought it would have been the other way around?!?! just something that i noticed.

Yeah I saw ya lurking on another thread...knew it was you. I think it was the polishing thread...

yeah that night sucked, It had me freaked for sure...but too many crazy run ins that winter.

Carol went and bought a new Apex.... its SWEET

If you dont need to have the throttle pinned all the time, whats the big deal? You can still ride as fast as you want during the day.
If you want to quit the sport, thats your call, but dont expect us to throw you a pity party.

I believe the majority of people involved in this sport enjoy snowmobiling because it affords a certain amount of personal freedom. I consider myself a generally courteous, law abiding rider, but this doesn't mean I'm in favor of the speed limit. The privilege to be able to LEGALLY enjoy the woods, fields and lakes in one's own way is what draws me to the sport.

Now, before you ASSUME this just means ripping up the trail and endangering others, IT DOES NOT.

It can also mean taking the family out for a slow Sunday drive. It means riding in a fashion that you enjoy the most that particular moment in time. I can only speak for myself, but I assume most would agree, that no one wants to slide through a corner and wipe out another rider, or harm anyone in any way. But, after all, isn't this just common sense? Sure, you can argue that not everyone out there uses common sense on the trails. So why then would you think these people would heed the law to begin with?

With that said, ask yourself these simple questions;

1) How many times have you been involved in an accident or "near miss" with an oncoming sled during the hours of darkness?

2) How many times during the day?

I think the answer is obvious.... at least for me it is. This is what makes me question the logic behind this law.

I don't often drive faster than 55 at night, but If I choose to, I do my level best to ensure I wont be endangering anyone but myself. This boils down to personal freedoms I mentioned earlier. I believe most "older" riders are upset with this law for just that reason. Each one of us has to asses risk and use our own judgement accordingly while out on the trail, no matter what time of day it is. The folks that have been doing this for decades and have survived are obviously doing something right, or they wouldn't be around to post threads on an internet forum.

In my opinion, the supporters of this issue don't understand or won't admit that this law is just a means for the DNR to raise revenue by giving field officers reasonable suspicion to pull over sledders in hopes of catching them driving while intoxicated. Which as we all would agree is the root cause of most snowmobiling fatalities.

The only reason the AWSCA supports this law is because it is the lesser of two evils. The DNR has backed them into a corner by threatening mandatory checkpoints, absolute sobriety and having snowmobiling violations attached to your driving record in addition to notifying your insurance company. Not only that, but this new law provides a "foot in the door" for the DNR for future unnecessary legislation. But that's another story all together.....

I wish I had a simple solution to the rising death rate. I don't. But I can't justify conceding to a law I feel has little to no realistic chance of solving the problems plaguing our sport.

All things being equal, I'd much rather trailer to Michigan to experience these personal freedoms just like I have since my first visit there in 1982, than to have to worry if there is a radar gun pointed at me while I'm traveling 65 mph across a lake in my home state. In the end who really loses? The folks who rely on tourism dollars in northern Wisconsin. Ultimately, I believe they will feel the pinch. And that is something, unfortunately, I don't think the DNR has given enough consideration.

---Soap Box Off--

this paragraph proves my point about the hippocracy of the people bitching about this law.

thank you.

Please explain.... I can't draw a parallel with that statement and hypocrisy.

P.S. I'm not bitching....just stating my OPINION.

you guys say that this law is only to give the dnr another reason to stop people to check for booze. you then say that you consider booze the root cause of the problem and think it needs to be addressed?? if you really feel this way why not give law enforcement the tools they need to start curbing the problem then!?!?! how in the heck is a dnr official going to pull someone over if they suspect them to be drinking. crossing the centerline?? crazy driving?? no license plate light?? tinted windows?? the point is there really is no good way to tell if a rider has been drinking, this gives them a tool to start fighting the issue at hand.

you guys also say that the DNr has not considered the business owners and that it will hurt them. you say this after you declare that you are no longer going to support them, but go the michigan instead?? what sense does that make?? ah well the dnr is fucking em over so i will too?!?!?!

you guys say things like this:
"I wish I had a simple solution to the rising death rate. I don't. But I can't justify conceding to a law I feel has little to no realistic chance of solving the problems plaguing our sport."

you admitted in the previous paragraph that this law is only targeted at solving the main problem?!?!

come on guys think about it! you are all talking out of both sides of your mouth. either there is a problem in the snowmobiling world or there isn';t. either the dnr should have the power to try to solve that problem or they shouldnt. you guys cannot get your cake and eat it too. you all claim that you want the problem solved but yet will not grant the big bad old dnr the power to do it?!?!

if all these stupid arguments about this law have proved anything it is that the DNR and government are needed in this sport. there are way too many opinions for us to patrol ourselves.

I'm not sure where to begin....

First off, personally, I don't feel this law will curb drunk driving by a very large margin. It may help some, but I doubt it will significantly decrease deaths. We need to enforce the drunk driving laws already in place instead of coming up with the "band aid" laws. I'm all in favor of giving the DNR tools to do their jobs, but not at the expense of driving tourism dollars out of the state.

How would you accomplish this? I'm open for suggestions, but I honestly feel this night time speed limit is not the answer. It will, however encourage law abiding snowmobilers who like to ride a bit faster at night to contemplate alternate riding destinations.


Second, as to the business owners, I never said I WANT them to suffer, but if it were to happen, perhaps the DNR will realize their restrictions are negatively impacting the economy while at the same time have done little to reduce fatalities. I guess I shouldn't assume the DNR would draw that conclusion though, but it seems obvious to me.

If you don't like the trails somewhere, you don't keep going back, do you? This is the same principal. Freedom of choice... voting with your wallet. Call it what you want. It's not a new concept by any means. Sometimes it's the only way to bring change. Perhaps then the DNR would revisit their decisions and come up with something better so we CAN have our cake and eat it too.

"this law is just a means for the DNR to raise revenue by giving field officers reasonable suspicion to pull over sledders in hopes of catching them driving while intoxicated."

you make no sense^^^^. now it is a band aid law. i thought that it was a law to do nothing more than catch intoxicated drivers? nice john kerry flip flop there.

as for the tourism dollars leaving the state, that has not happened so you have no basis for that argument. mother nature if anyone can be to blame for that, not the DNR. i have friends that own businesses up north and none of them seem worried about the 55 at night law?!?! that goes back to the "chicken little, the sky is falling" mentality that you people have. you all have the ability to see the future i guess?!? you say that business' will suffer, the death rate will be unchanged, and the sport will suffer. why not wait to see what happens first before making such rash predictions?




my last post on the subject:

if you feel that this law ruins your snowmobiling and are either going to sell your sled or not come to wisconsin, do it, please! we do not need sledders like you on the trails or in this state. the snowmobilers that understand what is going on in our sport will pick up the little bit of slack that will be left with your exit. the sport needs people that are willing to change, spend money, sacrifice, and accept the fact that our sport needs a facelift. if the slim chance of a speeding ticket is going to ruin your love for snowmobiling then in reality the sport and the state will both be better off without you.

have a safe snowmobiling season and i will refrain from posting about this subject until they propose the daytime limit. that oughta really get you old guys all worked up!

I agree 100%. If you want to practice your snocross skills, thats fine, but take it to the track where you wont endanger the lives of innocent people because of your stupidity.

According to the DNR statistics...The "ACCIDENT REDUCTION TEAM" went out on patrol on 3 differant occasions last season. They wrote a total of 150 "WARNING TICKETS". Also the STATE PATROL wrote a total of 2 tickets...neither of which were SPEED related.

Funding for the A.R.T. has yet to be determined...Last year it came out of the "CASINO GAMING TAX"...Currently the C.G.T. has a serious problem..."HO CHUNK" owes the state several million dollars in back taxes...Some say as much as $70+ million.

Also...Watch for new requirements regarding in state and out of state sled registrations. The fees might be associated with club membership. "NON CLUB" members will pay higher fees.

The "OUT OF STATE" trail pass could go as high as $35.00 next year.....

Could someone please explain to me why Octane feels that Just because people are against losing another personal freedom that they have enjoyed for over 20 years that, he thinks they are "Practicing Sno-Cross Skills" on the trail.

Jeezers Fecking krist Octane, How do you draw a parallel between those 2 things? Seriously.


And LuvtheMud seems to think that because you disagree with the DNR's 3rd attempt at the same law that did absolutely nothing to curb the amounts of drunks killing themselves, "The Sport Does Not need them" (Huh?)

Maybe the DNR's next attempt to stop drunken riders will be to enact a law that all riders must wear a purple thong wrapped around their helmet so they have reasonable case to stop them to check for sobriety. And a near $500.00 dollar fine of they don't. I think that would actually be more effective, it would not divide the people that participate in the sport.

If I have been driving recklessly and out of control as you describe by "over-driving my headlights" and being a "racer Wannabe" (another one of your favorite terms) don't you think that obvious carelessness and disregard for my and others safety would have caught up with me by now after riding for nearly 30 years. (shit I feel old now, I have been snowmobiling longer then Octane has been alive, but he knows more about the sport?)

I have done everything I can possible do to fight this law being passed each time it has became an issue that infringes on my (and others) personal freedoms. and I am in pure disbelief that the "Sheeple" that think the government can somehow legislate the stupidity of drinking & riding out of the sport by issuing speeding tickets.

I could give a rats ass if exceeding 55 at night was only for probable cause to make a sobriety check, it would not bother m one damn bit, it is the fines and possible loss of snowmobiling privileges that really tweaks me off.

It is revenue generation and the DNR's continued Nazi'ism that you people are supporting, Will you agree with every law they suggest no matter how stupid it is??
I just don't get, Nobody is forcing anyone else to drive over 55 by not having this law. and that is exactly how you people are acting. Are you guys going to paint your sleds black and have big red swastika emblems on the side, It would be fitting for Anti-Velocity Nazi's!

Your like a bunch of pro-life radicals! just becuase you choose to not do something or think it is wrong in your mind, you think nobody should have the right or the ability.

Theres an old saying: "Your right to swing your fist ends where my nose begins." Do you also fight speed limits on the roads because they interfere with your freedoms? Also, just because you have, as you say, been riding for longer than I have been alive, that most definetly doesnt mean that you know more than someone like me who is still young. I hope that someday I can be an old fart who knows everything like you seem to think you do.
Seriously, get over yourself.

What if the DNR said most deaths are caused by people under 30 therefore if you're 30 or under you can't ride. Would you be ok with that?

Of the 26 fatalities last season, the average age was 37years and 7 months. The youngest being 9 years old, and the oldest was 66 years old. 22 of the 26 were alcohol/speed related.

Interesting. Do you know what the other 4 were from?

Now that is the info I was looking for. That last line says it all! BAC level to high.

Here's the link for all the statistics statewide for the 06/07 season. Take some time and scroll thru it. The statistical breakdowns go as far as weather the victims sled had studs or not.
http://dnr.wi.gov/org/es/enforcement/docs/...06_07annual.pdf

Maybe if Octane and LuvThemud could explain to us why they truly believe that this nighttime speed limit will reduce the number of deaths.


I think I would like to start a thread with that topic,


Why Do you believe that this speed limit will reduce the annual death rates?????

it did absolutely nothing the first two attempts, We already have a law in place and enforced with fines that is named "Imprudent Speed" What makes you think that a second law that has been enacted will now help?

I am just curious why you truly believe in your heart that this speed limit will reduce the number of deaths.

it has been proven by the DNR's own data collected from these accident sites that traveling at a speed over 55 MPH WHILE SOBER at night is not what is killing people.

lets take Something that Skitool pointed out,, since there were no deaths involved with riders of a sled in excess of 800 CC's, maybe they should outlaw smaller sleds because that is what people are killing themselves on, right?? it makes just as much sense as a speed limit if your looking at the wrong data.


Please answer why you believe that this speed limit law will reduce the number of deaths annually. (besides people choosing ride in another state and people quitting the sport)

This is a great topic. I will be going over 55 at night. Up north it will be on the lakes and down in SE WI it will be all over. We have miles of wide open trails, to hard not to speed. I will pay 500 id I have to but ypu better believe I will be the biggest dick about it.

Why does the DNR feel we need more laws, when in reality all they would need to do is enforce the ones already in place.

Only answer is REVENUE.

As shown, the majority of the problem on our trails at night is mainly ALCOHOL in the operator's system. With alcohol, that impairs judgement and consequently usually involves riding at higher rates of speed and lack of quick reaction times.

If people would only stop the drinking & riding!! What's the big deal about needing a (alcoholic) drink while out enjoying the trails?

We don't need more laws to protect ourselves-I assume the risk of operating a snowmobile and it's possible consequences.

You nailed it but I don't think they'll understand. great post.

This is one of the most confusing threads I have ever seen

alright fine i will answer your question gettin2old, even though i really find it pointless to keep arguing. the law is here to stay and there is nothing that anyone is going to be able to do about it. even though i value what you say and your opinion about as much as the shovel load of dog shit that i just took to the curb i will give you what you want, an answer. you have said that you are done snowmobiling so i wonder why you are still here and why i am even replying to you? you can answer my question of "why are you still here" after you read my post.

oldcatman you are in the same boat. you made it clear in the general forum that you are going to go to the UP for your snowmobiling and recreation, and abandoning the business' and clubs in this state in the time when they need you the most. you too are a poor excuse of a wisconsin snowmobiler and i will sleep better at night knowing that i will not be sharing the beautiful wisconsin trails with you this year.

now to the answer that you old guys are waiting for:
i am looking at the data and cannot understand where you guys are coming from even more. if comparing data from last year to the 05/06 season it shows quite the change. less deaths in general and less % of deaths with alcohol as a factor. last year it was a below average death year! now put yer thinking hat on there old men and think about what those say. they show a REAL decline in deaths and a REAL decline in % of alcohol contributing deaths. i honestly feel that the speed limit law had something to do with that. you guys that are claiming to be done snowmobiling in wisconsin are helping me prove my point even more. less snowmobilers on the trails will equal less deaths, sober or not, it is a game of odds and percents. if this law chases away a few people that will only result in less probability of that rider getting into an accident. so in reality i do not have to answer the question of "Why Do you believe that this speed limit will reduce the annual death rates?" because the stats answer it for me. last year with the nightime speed limit law in place deaths dropped, bottomline, no ifs ands or buts about it. was it totally because of the law?? nobody will ever know, and in your next post when you claim that it was because of other factors, it will be hearsay. you have no way of disputing the facts that the DNR report shows.

a few other facts that are kind of interesting in the report are that there were 2 snowmobilers that died without a helmet. would you argue if the DNR introduced a helmet law?? that would definetly encroach on peoples freedom of driving with no helmet on, right?? many of the deaths were also involving people that did not complete the DNR safety course. were you fighting the DNR when they enacted the law that required the class?? that surely encroached on people's freedom to just go out and ride their sled? now they had to take a class, WTF? this is the talking out of both sides of your mouth that is so obvious. if the law works for you, it is ok! when it affects you in a way that you do not like, it is bad for the sport!?

when looking at the sober deaths it is clear that speed was a factor. again, that is a fact, not my opinion. it is also a fact that nightime is when most accidents occur. now putting both of those FACTS together, one cannot be shocked that we are having this argument. i await your next post filled with nonfactual information surrounded by whining and crying. i will try not to respond anymore, and really should not have too. anymore questions you have for me, please see the DNR report as it answers them for me.

oh yeah, and 5 speeding tickets last year. WOW wonder what they did with all that revenue that they brought in with those 5 speeding tickets!! big DNR conspiracy alright, ROFL!!

Man to be in your 20's and have all of the answers, thanks for clearing that up for me. And sorry but I will still be riding in your state but I know some people that will just contiue north, but hopefully we will get snow where I normally ride and I will just have to be careful. Because you are right it is here to stay, sad to say. You'll understand later in life don't worry us old guys know. We all said otherwise but that is the way it is.

So, maybe we can let this topic die since the DNR won't listen anyways and let's all have a great season. I mean we are all here for the same reason we love the sport!