According to WCAX, VAST is reporting only 5,000 members at this time. They usually have 30,000 members. GUYS, if you havent bought your TMA yet, please do so to help support your club and VAST. We both need the money. If you want to see trails maintained next year, and if you dont want to see TMA prices go up, then BUY IT NOW!! STOP BEING SO CHEAP!!

GaderX

i dont want to be an ass but have you looked outside lately and noticedtrails arent open and barely even snow covered? whats the point of dropping the 80 bucks to not even ride? clubs cant be using money if they arent doing anything can they? im sorry but i guess i have given up hope on this winter already and i guess im cheap too, my fault.

I bought mine today, hoping that this storm would've done a lot more than it did. Oh well, still took it out for a spin tonight.

Got mine back in early December along with my NH reg's. Heck who knows with only that many sold the early bird drawing chances are that much better....

Seriously though, I am not made of money but I felt I need to do my part financially to keep the clubs and VAST going through lean times for when it does snow.

I bought my two back in December, and even sent more to my local club to help out with the groomer payments. Think of it this way If theres no snow they can not get paid for grooming but they still have to make payments on the groomer!!!! You could see alot of clubs having problems if something dosen't change.

Don't you realize that there are a lot of fixed costs like insurance, groomer payments, salaries, etc. that VAST must pay whether they groom or not.

Just imagine what would happen if VAST closed their doors!!! There would be no trail system in the state since about 80% of the trails are on private property and VAST and the clubs have to get permission every year to use those trails. There would also be little to no grooming because most of the newer groomers would be repossessed.

You have to realize that, by buying a TMA and joining a club, you're supporting a very large, complex and expensive system that must operate without interruption or else there will be nothing but crappy trails on a little bit of state and federal land.

I'd hate to think of a Vermont without VAST. That's just plain scary.

This is a great thread and I am glad the subject was brought up. It seems that most of us agree that all of those who ride in Vermont and plan on riding in Vermont in the upcoming years need to show their support for VAST this season and purchase a TMA. It has been mentioned earlier and I will stress it again that our groomer operators still need to make payments on their groomers and your local club still needs to make payments on trail maintenance machinery, club house, insurance, maintenance building, as well as other incidental expenses. Poor TMA sales will have a direct and negative impact on any potential trail re-routes, new trail construction, and bridge projects next summer and fall. It would be a shame if we lost VAST because of sledders who were unwiling to step up to the plate and purchase a TMA this year. If we lose VAST we lose the sport of snowmobiling in the state of Vermont.

Well, I buy mine early every year. But it could be a little wakeup call for the VAST folks if they don't get close to the base of 31,500 they do the budget for. I think you guys don't realize the waste that goes on in this organization. I have seen stuff that would make your stomach turn. Nice BBQs at the VAST office with wine on a Friday afternoon and more. I don't want the organization to fold, but I do want them to take a close look at how they treat their landowners and volunteers. You realize the VAST Exec director makes in the area of $75K and gets a free truck, snowmobile, and expenses? Your TMA pays for that. I volunteer and I don't get the perks. Hell, most of the volunteers pay for their own chainsaws, oil, tools, etc. VAST needs to trim its budget, and two bad years in a row might make them do it.

CLUBS ALWAYS HAVE PAYMENTS AND STILL HAVE TO DO TRAIL WORK REGARDLESS OF SNOW OR NOT.

I want that job!!!!

i know money needs to be paid out, but like it was said,sometimes you got to trim the fat at the top.VAST has repeatedly refused to do a day pass or even a weekly pass.I think as the sport gets more expensive in all areas,people just decide not to buy a pass in vt.whereas getting the money from these day or weekly passes i think, will add up in times like these.It is better than nothing.

Just pay up you cheap sob's. the expenses are there whether the snow is or not. My club, as I'm sure most do has big overhead, VAST pays them some when they can't groom but if you want those nice trails when there is snow you better pay when there isn't. Don't piss and moan next year is the groomers aren't out because there isn't enouigh funds for them. As for VAST percs, true or not where would we be without then. If I'm paying for a bottle of whine then so be it they are the lobbyists that get our trails and help us keep them, hell they are the reason we even have trails in VT. Pay up dudes or we may have nothing. JMO :beer chug:

That's fine with me. It's a tough job that gets tougher every year and he's handling it well. Is there fat to be trimmed as in almost every company and organiziation? Probably, but that's not the point here. It's about people asking "what have you done for me lately?" and "what are you doing for me right now?". This is a dangerous way to think if you really love the sport and want to see a sustained and well maintained trail system in Vermont for years to come.

Besides, if you are talking about the VAST GMC 2500 HD... it is not Bryant Watsons, everyone uses it and it is not allowed to go home. They must keep it at the VAST office.

You must be living in a cloud to think that Clubs don't have expenses if it doesn't snow. You need to attend meetings and get involved in the bridge building, trail debrushing, culvert replacements, reroutes and the other improvements that you obviously don't have a clue about. This work happens regardless of the snow ammounts, and VAST pays for a lot of these projects through the Trail Construction Grants program. The next time you get on your sled, take a minute to look around at the work that was accomplished before the grooming started, and I promise you'll change your tune. Without TMA sales you won't have to worry about the lack of grooming, because the repairs won't get done in order to have the trails opened for grooming.

So what people are getting at here is they will hesitate if it looks like it will be a dry year. Like I said, I buy one TMA and I get one volunteer TMA. I buy them when the treasurer gets them. That said, I can't fault someone that waits. It's not the greatest model. That's why insurance companies make you pay for snowmobile insurance for the whole year either way. People would be uninsuring them when there is no snow. Can you blame them? If I told you that you buy a car, insure it, register it, and then you are not allowed to drive it? People are waiting to buy ski passes, etc. It's about money. 98% of VAST are people who are paying to ride. The volunteers buy their TMAs either way. Just saying that people given the choice will save the money.

I buy my TMA's in early December as a "thank you" to my local clubs for maintaining the trails...
I feel it's the least I can do since I have never been out maintining the trails... (Different story, don't get me started)

I think part of the problem with the TMA's not getting purchased is technology is advancing and is actually hurting TMA purchases...

What I am getting at is... How many folks who live out of state are now able to monitor trail conditions, pretty much by the minute over the internet with webcams and message boards, have just not come North to Vermont because they know there is just no snow? ? ?

Don't get me wrong, I love this shit, VAST just needs to find a way to get folks signed up early, before people can decide there isn't gonna be any snow.... How about next year, they offer TMA's at the same rate as this year until December 15th... Then they tack forty dollars on for those who wait... Do they allow mail/internet purchases so those who are out of state can get their TMA's before the vacation here? That model works well in Canada...

i agree.

No doubt bought my tma saturday!!rode the loop. 32 miles carbides never hit dirt!! saw six moose.

Thats a good way to do it. If it meant saving money, I'd sign up early.

No work to do...my club still spent $7,000 on trail repairs this year alone. Plus we have to maintain the groomer, bought fuel and paid for insurance. Trust me, we would love to go broke buying fuel this winter.

If you don't but a TMA to support VAST, keep your mouth shut next year when we run out of grooming money and IT IS GOING TO SNOW NEXT YEAR!!!!!!!

I agree with the others on supporting VAST. Think of it as a very small investment toward the future of snowmobiling in Vermont. My club is working on a 2 year trail reroute project and if it is not complete for next season, that section of trail will be shut down, so without VAST there to reimburse the expenses, it probably wouldn't get finished. Even if you don't end of buying the TMA, you could send in some other amount to go into the fund.

Coming from a flatlander fromt CT, we normally only buy our passes once we are in VT. By looking at the number of views on this site there are a lot of people are very interested in making sure VAST stays solvent, where should we send the $ if we don't end up visiting your beautiful state? Is there a general fund?

I will take it upon myself to check with VAST to see if they have something setup for this.

Got mine!

This is the official press release by VAST today.

Busted storm another bad omen for snowmobilers

January 16, 2007

By WILSON RING The Associated Press

MONTPELIER — Monday's snowstorm that fizzled into a mess of sleet and freezing rain pushed Vermont's snowmobile industry one step closer to being a complete washout.

Almost a month after the state's 4,600-mile snowmobile system usually opens for the season, only one 30-mile stretch of trail — between Jay and Richford — was open, said Bryant Watson, executive director of the Vermont Association of Snow Travelers.

"I have been a snowmobiler since 1965. This is by far the worst season I can remember," Watson said. "To have this be the way that it is throughout the entire state is pretty much unseen."

Watson said snowmobile trails needed a compacted base of about six inches of snow before they could be opened. The best case is for there to be a series of six-inch to eight-inch snowstorms that drop a total of 18 to 24 inches at minimum.

To break even for the year, VAST needs to sell about 30,000 trail passes. As of last week, the organization had sold 4,855, Watson said.

There's a similar story in New Hampshire.

"The first quarter of the snowmobile season was a huge loss," said Craig Mayo, president of the New Hampshire Snowmobile Association.

On an average year, snowmobiling pumps about $550 million into the Vermont economy. Tens of thousands of snowmobilers spend money at convenience stores along the trails, restaurants, hotels and motels and for the equipment itself.

This winter is lining up to be the third consecutive tough season for the snowmobile industry. Watson has said it could push about half of the state's snowmobile dealers out of business.

While the weather forecast for the rest of the week calls for colder weather, there are no significant storms predicted through the end of the month. "It doesn't look like there is anything in the cards," Watson said.

The colder weather will help, though, if snow follows. Watson said that in much of the state the ground has been so wet it would take several feet of snow before it could be compacted enough to open the trails. Once the ground freezes, it would be ready for the snow.

But even if abundant snow falls during the second half of the winter it might be too late.

"There comes a point when snowmobilers will just say 'to hell with it,'" Watson said. "We're coming very close to that point right now."

Mayo agreed.

"We've got a lot of catching up to do; I don't think we will catch up. Even if we do get snow, some people will say the heck with it. They won't even make the effort."

Vermont's snowmobile trail system usually closes for the season some time in April.

Oh I almost forgot, I bought my 2 TMA's in December.

Good idea, I would buy mine early every year-- as would many others I know. I'll be getting mine this Friday, hopefully to ride this weekend. No reason for waiting-- knew I would be getting one, but just haven't been able to ride so haven't been motivated to go down and get one--

I couldn't agree more. Every Vermonteer / land owner I talk to hasn't registered. Right now there's no freaken way, but if we get dumped on then its a differant story.

As for myself I have enough cash to set up 3 sleds every year. There's no way I'm gonna stay at home when we do get snow.

bstuart, were you able to find out if VAST does have something set up for general donations? I should of probably checked prior to mentioning it but a guy I know mentioned this is what he would do if he does not get the TMA.

Maybe since VAST is having such a bad year maybe when (and even if) the trails open the state will keep the no good for absolute shit nothing Game Wardens off the trials who are bothering people for doing absolutely nothing. Hey, there's a thought. I don't feel to bad about this, I bought my pass early this year, same as my NH pass and Canada. I gave enough money to the state last year, bought a new truck, and sled, I bend over hard for VT last year. Like the kid said before take a look outside man, nobody is gonna register at this point!!! It's nobody's fault here, not everybody in the state is like some of us, who went right out a registered early. We all have our own bills to pay too here, if it were like $50 bucks to register you would have your 30,000 members, you shouldn't openly take it out on people who didn't register becasue the clubs have to pay bills, they sure didn't have many last year or this year so far. Maybe the president should take a pay cut of his 75 G's since I am sure he has not been very busy the few years. it hasen't snowed!!! Accept it, unless there is a miricle storm, this winter is done, we should get refunds for the TMA's or the state should do the RIGHT thing and make this years passes good for next year, HEY, there;s another thought. Now next year @ this time again there will be no snow again and there will only be 2,500 members becasue half of the 5,000 members this year will be too pissed off from this past year to shell out $85 bucks again. My suggestion would be to not stir the pot too much this year becasuse i will put money on next year being even worse. This is a weather pattern that is on it's 3rd year, it's not gonna swing around a be like 5-6 years ago and us getting dumped on...Just my opinion. In the end I wish we would get a few good storms to get off the ground, but it don't look good.

I emailed VAST and have not heard back

renegade 800, nobody is holding a gun to anybody's head. We are just letting people know there is more to running a state wide trial system then just grooming. Even though the trails can only be used 4 months (if extremely lucky) it is a year round task to get them ready for the start of the following season. You may know this but if not, the VAST organization is a private non profit organization with no ties to the government of Vermont, as far as I know. It really pisses me off when someone shuts down a trail because of high land taxes or some related state government issue that VAST has no control over and they think it is going to twist the governments arm to do something. All it does is hurt the little guy and business that rely on snowmobiling and the loss of revenue to the state which in the long run could potentially push taxes higher due to the loss of revenue.

I think I can say this for most everyone that we are all fustrated and edgy with the past couple of winters and this one so far.

I agree there..

If you want to donate. you can give it directly to a local club. We have gotten a bunch of donations this year from people who aren't going to buy a TMA.

A couple things. First VAST is separate from the state as someone pointed out. It does get some of its funding through the state (portion of registrations & portion of gas taxes), but the taxes someone paid on a purchased truck have nothing to do w/ keeping VAST afloat.

In terms of the local clubs versus VAST there is a greater concern for VAST. Most of the local clubs expenses would be grooming and trail work, both of which are reimbursable by VAST. If a club doesn't groom the expenses are not as significant (insurance, maintenance, etc.). However, VAST is still contractually obligated to pay the minimum grooming contract to each club/operator (even if they don't groom a single mile due to conditions). That bill totals about $1 million annually, whether there is snow or not. Payment of the minimum contract to the club ensures the clubs have funds to pay the groomer insurance, etc. Additionally, VAST has budgeted in the area of $200,000 - $300,000 annually for trail projects. That money is spent well before the trails officially open. So, as you can see the greater risk of going into the hole seems to be at the VAST level.

In terms of VAST expenses, yes there is probably room for cutting some. But even if that were done it might make a difference of $1 or $2 per TMA (in an average year). And if you think the Executive Director is severely overpaid, I'd suggest looking at salaries of people who are responsible for a $5 million+ corporation. Bryant is paid well and gets some benefits, but he puts in some long hours and has a lot of pressure on him. If anyone thinks the VAST President is over paid, think again. That is a volunteer position like all of the other officers/Board of Directors. The only thing they get is reimbursement of their expenses (and they spend a lot of time going to/from/at the VAST office).

Bottom line, support the sport by getting your TMA. If you want to support your local club as well, that's great.

For $69 I can ride Maine as fast as I want and don't have to have insurance..
Very cheap and the trails are muchooo better without the hassel from wardens...

COPO, you might be able to get the Maine's trail pass cheaper but when you add in gas to get there, wear on vehicle to trailer, food and lodging (multiply that by the number of trips made up there), I seriously doubt you are saving money compared to walking out the front door, hopping on the sled and riding the local trail system. The only advantage this year is Northern Maine has snow enough to ride so far. I believe I have heard of people getting speeding tickets on Maine trails for riding to fast.

Whats really nice is when a landowner lets the trail run a mile or more of their land and year after year every spring, club volunteers and or the landowner pick up 25-50 beer,soda and water bottles in April after snow is gone. Thats what closes trails down.

Yeah I screwed up on the State part of my agrument. But the guy who started this has a lot of telling people to stop being so cheap, I am sure that comment is gonna get a lot new memebers. My point I am trying to make is, there's no snow guys, VAST is not gonna recover from this winter, think of some ways to get more members for next year like drop the price on TMA's, I don't know.

I just believe there is some room for for cutting some $ IMO. Trust me, I know what clubs go through I just moved to VT from NH and I still help my friends in the club in NH and I donate to VT, I volunteer my time, equipment to both. But the VAST officers seem to be enjoying the good life with their salary, vehicles, beni's, and expences. When do they re-elect, i could use 75 grand a year and incentives. Unfortunetly it looks to be a bad year and some changes might happen @ the expense of the members, I just think calling people cheap is the wrong way to go about it especially when i was a non-resident for the past 5 years paying the $100 + for a TMA, christ I just payed $220 for a pass in QC, I know it's Canada but there needs to be some re-evaluating in VT for pricing. If your gonna take the gamble in rising prices to cover your losess you better hope we get dumped on next year or this is just gonna get even worse, noboby will be joining.

the problem is if they go way below what is needed to break even for the year, you, me and everyone else may be making that loss up next year when we buy TMAs next season. If someone knows they are not going to buy the TMA this year, any donation amount to them will hopefully put off or decrease any large increase next year.

I think they had a good idea with the early bird TMA buy drawing and hopefully they will do it again next year. If they want me to buy the TMA early, I would like some sort of accentive to do it.

I'd like to see a TMA sales incentive like the ski areas. Make it worth it to purchase early. Then you know it's a true savings, not just a chance to save. I was against the raffle. I didn't think it would work, and unfortunately, I was right. I had suggested a slight decrease for early purchase and then a rate increase for late buyers. That would show in the pocketbook and that's where it counts. Go to the Director meetings. You do have a voice in the decisions made by the Administrators and the Board of Directors. Go to the Club meetings and volunteer. We need to raise funds within the Clubs and not depend solely on subsidies from VAST. PLEASE DON'T CRITICIZE THE WORKERS. BECOME ONE!!!

i think that is a great idea... i know a few people that would sign up early if they could save $15 on the TMA. this should be looked into for the future...

They tried that this year for the first time with the chance to win a snowmobile. Hopefully they will elaborate on that next year.

Now that there is 4 inches of snow on the ground in Island pond, everyone and there brother will be out, lets see how they rebound this weekend with the prospect of SNOW!!!!!

I have a house in Maine so I can ride out of my backdoor. Even adding in the gas and food ect.. it is still cheaper to ride in Maine. TMA is twice as expensive as Maine PLUS insurance to go with it. Too rich for my blood. I rode VT. for a few years back in the lat 90's and had a good time, but that is when the TMA was $50. and no insurance.. pulled into my parking in chester VT. to go home and got harrased by the fish pigs for doing nothing wrong. NO THANKS!!

The trails in Maine are FAR bigger and faster than anything VT. has to offer. VT main trails are what Maines small feeder trails are. and in all the years I have been going up there have yet to run into a warden. Guess you just gotta know where to ride and when.

All I have to say is Vt's trails are marked WAY better and there is many more easily accessible services and the trails do not get as boring and other sledders and service people are nice(in Maine it seems nobody cares!). As far as insurance goes you are crazy not to have it even if it is not required. If you hit me how are you going to pay for $100,000.00 medical plus property? $50.00-$100.00 is cheap! Take one day off sledding to pay for ot!

I can see both sides of the coin here. I must admit that we have not purchased our TMA's yet, but maybe the VAST people should call Polaris, Ski-Doo, Arctic Cat and Yamaha to see how much they are prepared to offer to all the state organizations that support them . We all (or most of us) have limited funds to spend. When we find our selves low on money we have to not buy a new sled, new car or truck, new boat, etc. We still have to entertain our family, so that money has to come from somewhere. I know it hurts, but I have to make a decision that my money is better spent elsewhere. It makes me sad to look at our sleds sitting on that trailer every day when I go to work, knowing that they may not get ridden once this year. I still have payments to make. I registered them, registered my trailer, insured both sleds and trailer, etc, etc. So, do like everyone else does, and find other ways to find the money, or cut back on expenses.

I agree!! The best incentive for most of us (besides good trails) is saving $$. Just not sure without crunching some numbers whether or not VAST could "afford" to do this though.

Some people need to remember that VAST is not just about trails and grooming. Snowmobiling is now such a highly charged "POLITICAL FOOTBALL" that to keep trails open ALLOT of work VAST now does/is doing involves LOCAL, STATE, NATIONAL, and even INTERNATIONAL organizations and issues. We all need to support this - REGARDLESS OF SNOW/NO SNOW.

I get really PO'ed when I am out on the VAST trail system and see unregistered sleds, sleds w/o TMA's or BOTH. Many, I know just figure that they will never get caught but that doesn't alter the fact that they are WRONG to do this and HAVE NO RIGHT TO BE ON OUR TRAILS. IMHO, unless and until VAST has a better plan to deal with freeloaders, it will continue to be a major hole in their resource stream. (I was on the 'Pipeline' in the NEK 3yrs ago and stopped counting at 20 unregistered sleds!!)


PS. If all sleds in the trailers I saw on I91 Sat + Sun (Jan 20, 21) bought TMA's, it should help. If they didn't, shame on them!!!!

Don't mean to piss anyone off but like someone else said: "No VAST = NO SNOWMOBILING IN VT"
WE ALL NEED TO SUPPORT VAST!!