HCS Snowmobile Forums > Mapping trails for Ontario with GPS

vooodooo

Jan 15 2007, 02:48 PM

I finally remembered to check this out and what do you know, I was right.
The page is gone at DMTI, I found this in google cache.

These are the people who make the GPS Maps for Magellan and Garmin, maybe more.
Remember the old OFSC trail maps? The good ones, before the new PDF garbage there is now?
These people made them, in likely the same or similar format as the .img files the gps units use now.
I'd assume the mapping would be just a matter of a few clicks and bada boom bada bing, you'd have topo maps,. with the OFSC trail sytem built in as a background.
Why do we not have access to the map that the OFSC obviously paid for?
How sweet would that be?

QUOTE

Press Releases 2003

FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE

Ontario Federation of Snowmobile Clubs and DMTI Spatial™ launch Web-based Tourism Map Service To Help Snowmobiler's Find Their Way
February 05, 2003

Markham, ON February 5, 2003 - DMTI Spatial™, Canada's leading mapping solutions provider, is pleased to announce the launch of a map-based tourism Web site for The Ontario Federation of Snowmobile Clubs (OFSC). This site introduces snowmobilers to a dynamic mapping Internet application that integrates intuitive search and navigation functionality with accurate and comprehensive map and trail data.

DMTI Spatial has digitized over 46,000 kilometres of OFSC snowmobile trails in Ontario. DMTI will host this Web map service for OFSC and will integrate its trail data with CanMap® Streetfiles, Enhanced Points of Interest, water and topographic base map data. ESRI Canada and Sun Microsystems of Canada Inc. have collaborated with DMTI Spatial on this project. The service leverages the power of the Sun ES420R model server and ESRI's ArcIMS 4.0 and ArcSDE 8.2 software.

"Snowmobile tourism is a very important industry for the Province of Ontario. With over 168 million kilometers driven by our snowmobilers each year, we wanted to make it easier for our members to access information about trails and travel destinations. The Web, with its ease of access and functionality, was the ideal technology for this type of service. The map application built and hosted by DMTI Spatial will be an excellent resource for our members," said Ian Pizey, Vice President, OFSC.

"DMTI Spatial is known for brokering business solutions that require best-of-breed technologies. For this particular project we called upon Sun Microsystems of Canada and ESRI Canada to assist with the development of a first class Web mapping service for the OSFC. With over $1 billion worth of economic activity generated by OFSC trails, Ontario tourism and local communities will benefit from this impressive Web map application," said John Fisher, President and CEO, DMTI Spatial.

For over 36 years, the OFSC has been the voice of organized snowmobiling in Ontario. It is recognized internationally as a leader when it comes to being environmentally responsible and for its comprehensive network of groomed trails and affordable membership.

Enjoy this mapping service experience for yourself through OFSC's web site at http://trailmaps.ofsc.on.ca

-30-

About DMTI Spatial:
DMTI Spatial are the mapping technology and address management experts. Our best of breed solutions enable clients to harness the power of geography to better understand their customers, optimize resources, realize opportunities and maximize profitability. DMTI Spatial is the creator of: CanMap®, a nation-wide, precision-built street map and routing database; GeoPinpoint™, an innovative suite of geocoding and address management software; and a comprehensive portfolio of points of interest data, census and postal geography, topographic maps and elevation data. To find out more, www.dmtispatial.com or call toll free: 1-877-906-6674.

About Ontario Federation of Snowmobile Clubs:
The Ontario Federation of Snowmobile Clubs was founded in 1967 as a non-profit organization to act on a provincial level for its member clubs. The OFSC is composed of the 260 local snowmobile clubs and their associations. These member clubs and the associations are operated by their dedicated volunteer members. For more information, visit: http://www.ofsc.on.ca/ or call: 705-739-7669

For further information please contact:

Don DeGenova
Vice-President, Business Development and Strategic Alliances
DMTI Spatial
ddegenova@dmtispatial.com
Toll Free: 1-877-477-3684 x2011

Ian Pizey
Vice President
Ontario Federation of Snowmobile Clubs
info@ofsc.on.ca
Tel: 705-739-7669
Fax: 705-739-5005

87gtNOS

Jan 15 2007, 02:59 PM

I am calling friend at DMTI right now.....

ok..I left a message....I'll see if he can get his hands on the stuff!!

IndySKS

Jan 15 2007, 05:13 PM

Well for my point of view:

Not all OFSC trails are mapped on GPS, the Districts have some GPS units to map the trails but not everything is done yet. I know my area has only about 15% done, I can't speak for other area's. We received the units 2 years ago at the end of the season just as the trails closed. We mapped everything we could in the time allowed. Last year was a wash as most trails never got open long enough to get any mapping done, and this year .....well it just needs to snow. We have crews ready to go and the funds to do it just get us some snow.

Will you ever see a GPS trail map provided by the OFSC that covers all of the Province....not likely.
For a number of reasons: Trails are not like roads...roads once built never move and will always be in the same place and can be plotted on a map. Trails on the other hand move from year to year, in the south for crop reasons and landowners revoking permission or adding trails. In the north trails get moved due to logging...beaver Dams wash out....and so on. So if a map was produced this year it could have some major flaws and people could use that data for many years and travel on private property where they are not wanted or follow a trail that no longer exists or leads them to a danger such as a washed out bridge. To put this into perspective ask your self why each District prints new maps every year ? Cause trails change !

I for one would never use data collected by someone else as my only guide and put my life on the line following it on some remote trail in Northern ontario. I have download a number of tracks other people have made but would only used them as a vague reference.

I think there would also be a liability issue with private landowners, we are guests on their land. Producing a GPS map for people to use their land could and will create an issue. I now are few landowners have already said if you produce a GPS map of a trail on my land ...your gone.

I believe the map you are looking for on the OFSC site was discontinued due to the high cost of maintaining it

But really do you really need a GPS map of the trails or do you just want to play with your toy ?

vooodooo

Jan 15 2007, 05:28 PM

QUOTE(IndySKS @ Jan 15 2007, 06:13 PM)

Well for my point of view:

Not all OFSC trails are mapped on GPS, the Districts have some GPS units to map the trails but not everything is done yet. I know my area has only about 15% done, I can't speak for other area's. We received the units 2 years ago at the end of the season just as the trails closed. We mapped everything we could in the time allowed. Last year was a wash as most trails never got open long enough to get any mapping done, and this year .....well it just needs to snow. We have crews ready to go and the funds to do it just get us some snow.

Will you ever see a GPS trail map provided by the OFSC that covers all of the Province....not likely.
For a number of reasons: Trails are not like roads...roads once built never move and will always be in the same place and can be plotted on a map. Trails on the other hand move from year to year, in the south for crop reasons and landowners revoking permission or adding trails. In the north trails get moved due to logging...beaver Dams wash out....and so on. So if a map was produced this year it could have some major flaws and people could use that data for many years and travel on private property where they are not wanted or follow a trail that no longer exists or leads them to a danger such as a washed out bridge. To put this into perspective ask your self why each District prints new maps every year ? Cause trails change !

I for one would never use data collected by someone else as my only guide and put my life on the line following it on some remote trail in Northern ontario. I have download a number of tracks other people have made but would only used them as a vague reference.

I think there would also be a liability issue with private landowners, we are guests on their land. Producing a GPS map for people to use their land could and will create an issue. I now are few landowners have already said if you produce a GPS map of a trail on my land ...your gone.

I believe the map you are looking for on the OFSC site was discontinued due to the high cost of maintaining it

But really do you really need a GPS map of the trails or do you just want to play with your toy ?

I don't think we are on the same page.
A few years ago the maps were done by DMTI, the GPS people, through thier mapping charts and software.
Sattelite based stuf..
The maps showed everything in detail down to a couple of feet.
I used to use the OFSC site to show people where my cottage was.
This stuff was deadly accurate, as acurate as the maps that I have on my GPS now for roads, only with sled trails.
I'd trust the DMTI map longbefore I trusted some toothless gas attendant on how to get from point a to point b.
There is nothing worse than sitting at a poorly marked trail split and not knowing which way is your way, let alone if you are where you think you are.
Even if the trails are out of date, with the aid of current, paper maps, the DMTI map would be an absolute godsend.

If you didn't see the maps, it's probably pretty hard to understand.

TVBrian

Jan 15 2007, 05:31 PM

Thats the one INDY is talking about...... It used to be on the OFSC page. (Under tour planner)

It was costing them huge $$$ to maintain, so it got axed. And they went to the now PDF map section.

vooodooo

Jan 15 2007, 05:37 PM

QUOTE(TVBrian @ Jan 15 2007, 06:31 PM)

Thats the one INDY is talking about...... It used to be on the OFSC page. (Under tour planner)

It was costing them huge $$$ to maintain, so it got axed. And they went to the now PDF map section.

Ok, so don't maintain it.
Leave it as is.
It still would be a great tool, alongside the paper map from the district.
Four years out of date or not.

Does anyone here use the PDF map from the OFSC now?
The PDF's are actually IMO, worse than nothing.

IndySKS

Jan 15 2007, 05:42 PM

QUOTE(vooodooo @ Jan 15 2007, 06:28 PM)

I don't think we are on the same page.
A few years ago the maps were done by DMTI, the GPS people, through thier mapping charts and software.
Sattelite based stuf..
The maps showed everything in detail down to a couple of feet.
I used to use the OFSC site to show people where my cottage was.
This stuff was deadly accurate, as acurate as the maps that I have on my GPS now for roads, only with sled trails.
I'd trust the DMTI map longbefore I trusted some toothless gas attendant on how to get from point a to point b.
There is nothing worse than sitting at a poorly marked trail split and not knowing which way is your way, let alone if you are where you think you are.
Even if the trails are out of date, with the aid of current, paper maps, the DMTI map would be an absolute godsend.

If you didn't see the maps, it's probably pretty hard to understand.

Well my bad.... I miss read you post sorry It's been a long day

But yes that DMTI Map was the one that was discontinued due to the extreme cost of maintaining it. I agree it was a great map but maybe too good for the organization to afford.

TVBrian

Jan 15 2007, 05:43 PM

QUOTE(vooodooo @ Jan 15 2007, 06:37 PM)

Ok, so don't maintain it.
Leave it as is.
It still would be a great tool, alongside the paper map from the district.
Four years out of date or not.

Does anyone here use the PDF map from the OFSC now?
The PDF's are actually IMO, worse than nothing.

By maintain, I mean keep the web bandwidth & hosting to have it viewable online.

Fivecoolcats

Jan 15 2007, 05:45 PM

The PDF is terrible....

The main boundary map doesn't line up with the detailed PDF for each district...

Try and find the Carden trail system...it doesn't exist....you click the two boardering districts and neither one show the Carden System. This IMO is a terrible oversight on behalf of the OFSC. I tried to find a "webmaster" link to complain...ooops thats not there either... Come on folks ...the flagship for Ontario Winter Tourism at $180 per member and we can't even find a good tool to explore our well funded trail system... I say BOOOOO

I would say it to their faces but the "Contact Us" link takes you to a bunch of useless links.... how about the OFSC board of directors or something..... DOH.... its 2007 a four year old could generate a better website..

vooodooo

Jan 15 2007, 06:01 PM

QUOTE(TVBrian @ Jan 15 2007, 06:43 PM)

By maintain, I mean keep the web bandwidth & hosting to have it viewable online.

I can see that as an issue if they used a huge basemap.
If I use my existing basemap and add the trails only, we're down to a couple hundred K. Max.
Less than one of those PDF abortions.
They could find someone to park a complete file somwhere available for download for cheap.

mkeeping

Jan 15 2007, 07:07 PM

What a strange situation. You would think that maintenance would not be that difficult. Couldn't you put a GPS in a groomer?

As far as considering a GPS a toy; that is a gross understatement of how valuable these devices are. I am a sailor and prefer to use a GPS whenever going out of site of land. I can navigate without it but it sure makes life easier when the fog roles in. A GPS on snowmobile would come in just as handy during a snowstorm. Could make the difference between getting home and spending the night going in circles until you run out of fuel.

I realize that the maps will get out of date if not maintained but the maps that are currently distributed are far more inaccurate and barely useable as a navigation aid. They are more like mall maps than anything that could be used for navigation.

Lets face it, you are not using a GPS as a replacement for common sense. No one ever puts there life in the hands of map regardless of how it is created. GPS data does not replace a paper map, it augments it.

revrnd1

Jan 15 2007, 07:50 PM

Hasn't the club north of Kirkfield (Carden) disappeared?

While manning a booth @ the T.O. show I was talking w/ 1 of the other folks about GPS tracks for mapping. The other chap told me about a land owner that has told the club that if the trail on his property ever shows up on GPS he's revoking the permission. As the converstaion w/ him & a couple of others continued, I gathered that the landowner is 1 of those folks who wears a tinfoil hat & figures the CIA is trying to poison him.

revrnd1

Jan 15 2007, 07:55 PM

QUOTE(mkeeping @ Jan 15 2007, 08:07 PM)

Couldn't you put a GPS in a groomer?

I was talkiing to the guys @ the STP booth & that's how they plot their trails. Just switch the GPS from groomer to groomer to cover the area.

Daranello

Jan 15 2007, 11:53 PM

What about this map.?

http://www.sudburytrailplan.on.ca/map/index.html

Fivecoolcats

Jan 16 2007, 06:28 AM

QUOTE(revrnd1 @ Jan 15 2007, 08:50 PM)

While manning a booth @ the T.O. show I was talking w/ 1 of the other folks about GPS tracks for mapping. The other chap told me about a land owner that has told the club that if the trail on his property ever shows up on GPS he's revoking the permission. As the converstaion w/ him & a couple of others continued, I gathered that the landowner is 1 of those folks who wears a tinfoil hat & figures the CIA is trying to poison him.

Too funny....his land is already on a map....its called "every one ever f'ing created" or google earth..... or google maps...... Take off the tinfoil helmet buddy...

Perhaps its time a few of us spoke up at our club meetings and asked it be brought forward.

I think a general base map that you could d'load onto your own GPS as a starting point is a great idea. From there users could add delete and create their own custom maps....with lodging meals gas that they prefer....

Every year OFSC could update the map and provide it at the beginning of the next season...

I think it became a money issue becasue OFSC appears to have paid a GPS'ing company to provide the map to its users.... if they created their own and had it as a d'loadable file it wouldn't take up any more space thatn a big warm fuzzy picture of Don Cherry!!!

polaris1234

Jan 16 2007, 09:03 PM

Ok, question for you guys. Would you be willing to pay for a transparent downloadable trail map for your Garmin GPS? How much? I know Quebec has done this and it has its pros and cons. I think the landowner issue is the biggest thing stoppping this from being a reality. Some landowners simply don't want this information public and many clubs don't want it in the hands of ATVers in the summer when they are lost. Signage is taken down is some areas on purpose to try and keep ATV's from finding and destroying the sled trails. It does certainly have its advantages for snowmobiliers. GPS is an impressive thing.

Fivecoolcats

Jan 17 2007, 06:00 AM

QUOTE(polaris1234 @ Jan 16 2007, 10:03 PM)

Ok, question for you guys. Would you be willing to pay for a transparent downloadable trail map for your Garmin GPS? How much? I know Quebec has done this and it has its pros and cons. I think the landowner issue is the biggest thing stoppping this from being a reality. Some landowners simply don't want this information public and many clubs don't want it in the hands of ATVers in the summer when they are lost. Signage is taken down is some areas on purpose to try and keep ATV's from finding and destroying the sled trails. It does certainly have its advantages for snowmobiliers. GPS is an impressive thing.

I wouldn't be willing to pay for it.. Slap a GPS on a groomer and let 'er go. I can get these maps from another snowmobile related website with a STRONG GPS forum anyways. You would just think that OFSC would have the foresight and willingness to provide a tool that would attract users and members to what I feel is the Flagship for Ontario Winter Tourism...Especially in a time that apperas to be a turning point for organized snowmobiling. I don't want to see this ship sink and you would think that they would be doing everything possible to keep her floating. Perhaps its time for changing of the guards in the OFSC and get some outta the box thinkers in there.. ( I can't beleive I just said that.... toooooo many group hug meetings at work I guess!!!)

I still don't understand the landowner issue. Its not like these are secret Stone Mason trails. and I am pretty sure all the cattle fences and gates get closed anyways... (I'm not really asking you guys I am sure we are all on the same team.) But what is the difference if the trail is displayed on a paper map, or a digital map. Its that old school thinking... people don't understand it so they are afraid of it.

Just my $0.02