I stopped at our local DNR service station today (Woodruff) to get a spare deer tag, and get my turkey permit deal.

While I was there, I asked an enforcement warden about the new speeding laws, and the fines involved for getting ticketed.

he had no idea what the forfeitures are, could not get an answer from madison on this topic while I was there either, And I also asked what type of formal training was peformed so the wardens could properly operate their new $1,200.00 radar guns. he told me that no training was performed or required to operate these units! (hmmm, can we say clueless?)


So, nobody knows what the fines are, no warden is properly trained to operate these radar guns, He also could not tell me the new sound limits, or the testing procedure. (BTW, this was a supervisor too)


So, it looks like we make laws, but do not have a clue how to properly enforce them without innocent people getting ticketed.

In a typical speeding trial, the officers formal training on the radar/lidar unit he used is paramount!
I wonder how the courts are going to handle the DNR fiasco? (I meant a real court, not Boss-Hoggs' court up here in Vilas county)

And these are part-15 guns! 9 as opposed to part-90 fcc licensed units) no license needed to operate them, but prone to mistakes and not usually allowable as evidence in court.

Any law enforcement or legal background people in here?

I am sure we would all like to discuss this with views from both sides.

Im sure that when this goes to court they will have pencil whipped all the trainning needed. and the warden will have had proper trainning on how to justify the ticket when its time for court

Was it Craplin that you talked to? How's his hair these days, does he still have bedhead 24/7? He's clueless all the time.

G2O, maybe I can answer some ?'s about the radar/lasers, I have 12 years LE experience and been assigned to traffic unit for past 6 years. Granted I'm in Colorado and I don't know what if any, case law there is in Wisconsin, but i may be able to answer general ?'s.

I bet he was just pleased as punch to see you come in and start wasting his time asking a bunch of idiotic questions. Obey the speed and other laws as they are written and you wont have to worry about how the officer is trained or what fine you will get if you get caught.

:div20:

No, Not "Craplin", I won't even talk to that clown!! He has his head so far up his ass all the time that is why he looks like that!!


Joerocket, Obviously you have never been wrongly issued a speeding ticket from a radar error. yes it does happen more than you think.

Lildamion,
The several instances of wisconsin case law that could be referenced in a situation like that, all come down to proper "Formal" training, and proper calibration procedures. and reversals have happened regularly due to the officer not being formally trained and the evidebce being disallowed. But we need to deide if it is worth it to hire legal counsel and spend that type of coin to win this.

Are you familiar with the Talon-2 handheld, instant on, KA-Band gun? (35.5 MHZ)
I know they are weak compared to a FCC part-90 unit, and the manufacturer had admitted to acquisition problems with .dust, he recommended oncoming shots only.
Do you know if this unit emits an audible doppler tone? if not, how would an officer determine what direction the target speed is coming from? is it on the display somehow??

I am also curious to know the angle of the antennea on this unit to determine beam width at certain distances.

The problem I see happening with people getting ticketed wrongfully, is that the operator will not be able to determine which target caused the speed reading on the display. For instance a 1/4 mile distance and the radar beam is over 400 feet wide (guessing until I know the antennae angle) the warden could see a snowmobile on the lake, think he is getting that sleds speed, and actually get a reading from a different snowmobile off to the side of the one he thinks he is clocking.

This is my problem with them not having any formal training, Not getting ticketed for speeding, But getting ticketed for speeding when you weren't speeding!!

Any help is appreciated.

Thanx,

Lildamion,
The several instances of wisconsin case law that could be referenced in a situation like that, all come down to proper "Formal" training, and proper calibration procedures. and reversals have happened regularly due to the officer not being formally trained and the evidebce being disallowed. But we need to deide if it is worth it to hire legal counsel and spend that type of coin to win this.

Are you familiar with the Talon-2 handheld, instant on, KA-Band gun? (35.5 MHZ)
I know they are weak compared to a FCC part-90 unit, and the manufacturer had admitted to acquisition problems with .dust, he recommended oncoming shots only.
Do you know if this unit emits an audible doppler tone? if not, how would an officer determine what direction the target speed is coming from? is it on the display somehow??

I am also curious to know the angle of the antennea on this unit to determine beam width at certain distances.

The problem I see happening with people getting ticketed wrongfully, is that the operator will not be able to determine which target caused the speed reading on the display. For instance a 1/4 mile distance and the radar beam is over 400 feet wide (guessing until I know the antennae angle) the warden could see a snowmobile on the lake, think he is getting that sleds speed, and actually get a reading from a different snowmobile off to the side of the one he thinks he is clocking.

This is my problem with them not having any formal training, Not getting ticketed for speeding, But getting ticketed for speeding when you weren't speeding!!

Any help is appreciated.

Thanx,
[/quote]

As far as formal training, I guess it depends how the courts interpret "formal training" Case law in CO states formal training is recommended but not mandatory, it also goes on to say "formal training" can be as little as sitting with an officer who is well versed in the use and operation of radar. As a radar instructor I feel it's important to go beyond that.

I have never used a talon-2 radar nor am i familiar with it, but if it's manufactured after 1995 I would imagine it does emit an audible tone as i have not been aware of any radar manufatures that don't have that technology. Assuming it does have an audible tone, that doesn't necessarily tell you what direction the target is traveling. The change in tone only lets us know there is more than one signal being reflected back to the unit...could be opening or closing the distance between the radar and target. On all of the radar units i have used in the past 6 years, there is a directional arrow on the display that indicates what direction the signal/target came from, again not being familiar the Talon I cannot attest to that. Another aspect to think about is many modern radars can also "turn off" a direction so to speak and I can tell the radar to only pick up signals traveling towards me or away from me, when this mode is used it completely turns off the direction you don't want to read and doesn't put anything in the display.

Going back to formal training...we use visual estimates on the target vehicle, then confirm them with the radar, ONLY after a visual estimate has been obtained. When i teach a radar class i require each student to show proficiency in estimating a target's speed and to be accurate +/-5 mph...if they are off by more than 5 mph I advocate not issuing a speeding ticket...my only exception to this is speeds in the range of 90mph or higher as we are not accustomed to seeing such high speeds, besides when something is traveling 90mph+ it doesn't take a brain surgeon to realize it's haulin' balls and most likely the vehicle the radar is picking up. The use of visual estimates is called "tracking history" and if it's used properly you should be able to go into court with certainty as to which vehicle you were picking up on radar.

You also mentioned the possibility of a warden picking up a different sled off to the side of the main point of the beam...possible yes, but if tracking history is performed properly it would be unlikely. You have to keep in mind the anything off to the side or more than 11 degrees from the beam center point will have a tangent/co-sine. The larger the co-sine, or further the vehicle is from the center of the beam, the lower the speed will read so the benefit of the doubt goes the operator on a target vehicle as his speed on the display is decreased significantly compared to his true speed.

I hope some of this makes sense, if not let me know, it's difficult to explain without showing some of my visual teaching aids

You teach people to judge speeds of cars and trucks not sleds, its a diffrent ball game.

I agree with you completely, it is different...Like G2O said you're dealing with snow dust and potentially falling snow,fog and what not, all of which would significantly decrease the effective range of a radar beam. I'm just trying to answer some basics on how a radar unit operates which doesn't change at all.

and one other issue that concerns me, Is the visual estimate, I know it can be a very accurate tool for properly "Trained" officers. (keyword: TRAINED) but only during the daytime. and we do not have a daytime limit, just night! making an accurate visual estimate at night is a whole different ballgame. Many studies have been performed by the NMA to prove it is not possible.( I have even heard officers state that they made a visual estimate at night, by use of their rear view mirror! No way in hell could it be accurate through a mirror with an approaching vehicle)

And these wardens have received no training whatsoever on these radar guns. basically they were just handed to the wardens and told to "have at it". they will believe anything the radar screen displays and wrongly ticket innocent people. That is my biggest concern right now. As long as Nielsen is not the judge, it should be an easy win in court. So anyone ticketed and gets Nielsen, get a substitution ASAP.
One more question LILDAMION,

many officers state that their radar never makes mistakes, Truthfully what percentage of erroneous reading do you commonly see, and what are the causes of these erroneous readings?

And my offer still stands to help anyone ticketed for speeding, Just keep your mouth shut at the time of the stop. what you admit to is stronger evidence than the radar gun!!

Just for info. Most ALL Sheriffs deputys and all officers from citys and villages should have their certification in radar. Only the new officers may not have the training.
I have no idea if any of the wardens are certified in radar or not.

I have never used the talon 2 but I do know it does have a tone signal. mike

Erronious readings are mostly with moving radar. Stationary radar is alot easier to use, and alot less that can be attacked by a violatior. If the officer is trained and has a tracking record in stationary mode, Not much to fight.

G2O, the most common errors I have seen are batching and shadowing, which can only occur if the radar is operated in the moving mode...I can't ever recall seeing any errors while I've operated a stationary radar in my 12 years.

I see shadowing once in a while using moving radar and it occurs when you're following a vehicle in moving mode and a target vehicle driving towards you. Rarely, but on occasion the beam reflected back to the radar will indicate the patrol car speed is less than you are actually driving. The radar will measure the change in velocity and add it to the target speed. This is why it is important for radars being operated in the moving mode to be verified on the patrol car speedometer before any enforcement action is taken.

I'm leaning with law651 stationary radar is pretty tough to beat these days. And if you do get a properly trained officer virtually all speed enforcement is pretty solid as evidence. I average about 1400-1500 tickets yearly and have on average 25 per year take them to court. I have never lost in court and our municipal judge is actually very liberal and pretty much anti-cop. His full time job is a DUI defense attorney and surprisingly enough even he has ruled in my favor over the years.

Thank you to both of our known law enforcement members (LilDamion & law651) for sharing your knowledge.

it looks like our only hope for beating a wrongfully issued speed citation is by working on the lack of training and not being properly qualified to operate the speed detection equipment.

now what would be real sweet is to have some "little birdy" (to remain nameless) PM me with a link to the operators manual of this gun.

I just got a real bad feeling about this, I know some DNR wardens (Kroeplin)around this area that are really too stupid to operate a radar gun properly.

They will also be using this gun directly off the sleds electrical system. I can anticiapte some accuracy issues being caused by a poorly regulated power source too.

So Law & Damion:
how many times have you guys aimed the radar antennea at the defroster vent to get a speed reading off the fan?
be truthful please

The older Kustom hr-12's would read off the fan...11 miles per hour on low and 17 miles per hour on high, the radars we use now won't pick up that interference.




edit typo

would the radar guns pick up the roost of the snowmobile? say for instance you take off hard and roost your buddy but only top out at say 50 mph. the roost would be flying a lot faster then that i would think??

maybe i am crazy, but there is just to much outside influence in snowmobiling for them to radar us.

especially a jerk hole like craplin!!!

good question,

from what I have learned about this radar gun and the snowdust generated from a sled getting a speed reading of a sled going away from the radar is next to impossible due to the weak power levels of this gun. (direct from the sales rep. at Kustom)

But you also bring up some other valid points. Especially with these only being used at night. I bet the operator will not be able to absolutely prove (without lying) that it was you and only you that generated that reading if other sleds are in the vicinity. How about cars or trucks in the background? Just because a sled is the closest to the radar it does not mean it reflects back the strongest signal! this all depends on the judge though, and with Nielsen presiding nobody has got a chance.

I have listened in on a case where an officer was using his radar by train tracks, and was mistaking the speed reading from the train for cars, and ticketing the cars. he was intent on watching the cars, and failed to see the train in the backround. remember, we are not dealing with rocket scientist's out there. And we all know kroeplins unlimited ignorance. This is like giving a loaded handgun to a monkey!!

All valid points to keep in mind in case you get ticketed and end up in court.

the particles in a "roost" would not be sufficient enough to reflect a radar signal back to the unit. the roost would only reduce the range of the radar...I see the same thing in foggy or misty weather, also on the mist a car kicks up off of a wet road, all that does is reduce the range

what exactly do you mean by reduce range???

i would think that the "roost" would be a moving solid object. not like fog which is just water particles in the air.

if you have ever been ROOSTED you know what i mean by solid object!!!

will this radar gun pick up track spin

I am not quite sure what you mean by that question. Could you add a bit more detail to clarify?

A sled is much larger than snow dust or track spin. The radar picks up on the strongest signal. Generally the larger object. A sled is also much more reflective. So no it wont pick up track spin or roost.
Reducing range "the radar will not pick up a object as far as during a clear crisp night."

Just like Lildamin said, THe old HR12 would pick up my fan on the car. But my Stalker Dual DSR does not. When I lock in a speed the radar even tells me what car it is I'm lockin in.

For sled patrol this year I will be using a pro laserIII. Easier to use, Long battery life, and laser has good range ,and I can pick out the exact moving object I want to get the reading from. Also very hard to beat in court, as long as your certified to use it. Mike

Law651

Can you honestly say you wont be speeding this year????

I don't ride hardly ever at night. Thats when I have to work. I mostly ride in Michigan's Up. SO I probably will not get a chance to speed at night in WI. I know that its hard to stay at 55 at night on a railroad grade. But thats the law this year. Hopefully it will change back in the future. I don't think speed is the only factorin the deaths. I do feel alcohol is a big part though. Mike

I plan on using the Mph limit more for OWI detection stops, and give mostly warnings for the speed. Unless of course you really deserve the speeding ticket.



At the rate were getting snow. No one will have to worry. We need some snow first. I'm doing the snow dance everynight before I go to bed. The wife thinks I'm nuts!!! Actually if it doesn't snow soon I think I will go nuts. The stress of a new sled sitting on the trailer and no snow!!!

oh how i wish Wisconsin would have chosen laser over radar!!

law651, give the Wisconsin enforcement team a call, and tell them they need to use laser technology instead of radar!! please please please!! tell them that it is so superior!!

if Wisconsin did choose laser, there is no way I would ever get ticketed!!

for about $400.00 , we could install an antilaser 8.0 and jam those guns right up to point blank range, and do it legally!!!
they would not Know what hit em!!

Actually those laser jammers work like crap. Just a device to take money from hard working people. I actually had someone ask if they could get out and smash it after I got them for speeding. They thought they were foolproof and were going 105 mph in a 55. I lasered them at over 2000ft and the jammer never new what hit them. Needless to say I told them to take it back where they bought it and see if they could get their money back. The just bought it before they headed up north for the weekend.

Most radar and laser jammers don't work like advertised. The only tool the works some of the time is a good old radar detector..

And $400 to try and get out of a $150 speeding ticket. (I'm not sure on the exact amount of the ticket yet but it should be around the 150-160 mark.")

keep on believeing what you say, it does not bother me in the least. Cuz I know better.

it also depends on what brand you are using too. if you are talking abour RMR brand, I agree they do not work. but the top-end active systems work just fine.

ok -- could you please try and answer this then.

here is the situation:

you are on a bridge -- using radar -- watching sleds etc...

i come out from an eating establisment along with 20 of my closest drag racing friends

there is 2+ feet of fresh snow on the ground.

i start my sled up an move over towards my buddies and hit the gas.


my sled starts to "trench" and not move, but throws "tons" of snow onto my buddy

meanwhile you are using the radar gun---

here is the question:

no one else is moving and my sled obviously isn't going anywhere fast

WOULD THE RADAR PICK UP THE TONS OF ROOST I THREW ONTO MY BUDDY?

--------------------------------

i personally think that it would , and i think that it might be our way out!!!!

just tell the dnr " it was the snow flying out of my sled, that was going that fast, not me!!!!!"

You forget the most importaint part of using radar. Observation, Even if you got a reading from the snow. You can obviously see the sleds are not moving.

how can you observe when 20 sleds take off at the same time???

plus you didn't answer my question--- would it pick up the roost?


god i feel like a lawyer!!!!!

YOU CAN"T HANDLE THE TRUTH!!!!

I guess its possible if nothing else is moving. And why cant you see 20 sleds moving? If thats your defense in court. You can plan on paying the ticket.

I also see your from out of state. (I usually will not make out of staters post) But if you get the wrong officer or DNR Warden. You can be arrested on the spot and made to pay the ticket amount or see a judge before you will be let go. Not a good Idea for out of staters to be speeding, When theirs a chance at getting caught. Not worth wrecking a weekend.. Even if you win the case later, it dosen't give you back your weekend you lost.

this is typical wisconsin dnr response--- are you guys all like craplin??

why don't you answer the question?? will it read the roost?

i think that you are affraid to answer because i found a way out of the ticket

I have no experience with track spin roost but I really don't think it would give a reading on the radar...I could be wrong

then would you be willing to do a test for us on this subject then???

i really would like to know-- now that it has become heated, it seems like people loose sight of the facts.

i would appreciate if somone could do it.

I would be happy to do tha test. If we ever get snow. Mike

I'd love to, cuz now I'm curious...only problem is I never have a radar near a snowmobile...Denver has no snow

I'll still hold strong to snow roost not being picked up on a radar...it isn't solid enough of a mass, the sled creating the roost will be moving continously...how long is the roost in the air...3-5 seconds??? and it's gone, the sled will still be moving during and after the roost...it's gonna only pick up the sled

you could be right- by all means --you are the ones with the experience. but from my experience of getting roosted by my buddies--- there is a ton-- i mean a ton of snow there. kinda like you taking a reading of the snow coming out of a snowblower--- do you think it would read that???

Hey law...are you city county or dnr?



i don't know the answer to that, but if it did pick it up, I would only think the snowblower would have a better chance of being read because the snow coming out of it is a constant flow...a roost i don't think would last long enough to pick up a reading...I know what you mean by a roost feeling pretty solid though...several of my buddies are pretty good at nailing the rest of us

Defenitely some valid points made between the 3 of you.

And this all comes down to observations made by the operator again, and they have no formal training.

I wish I could have some "play-time" with this talon-2 unit, I would love to find it's weakness, and then that weakness could be exploited in court if any of us get ticketed.

I see Kroeplin almost on a daily basis, (And flip him off everyday too) but that guys is so ignorant & combative about everything, nobody can discuss issues with him in a constructive manner.

I'll see if I can spend some time with another warden with this gun to see what we are up against.

What we know to be fact so far;
Snow dust severly reduces target acquisition, so this limits them to oncoming shots only.
This gun cannot be used in moving mode, Stationary mode only on the models the state purchased.
if snow dust does block the target, Maybe it could also cause an erroneous reading (To be determined)
The calibration of ALL Police radar is cheecked by vibrating tuning forks (sleds vibrate too, and might cause a false reading) this can be tested while the sled is parked and running.

And without the operator having proper training, they will not be able to determine readings that could be false. and should ensure a court win for those wrongfully cited.

I have been trying to get as much info as I can on this talon-2 gun, But we need to remember the city & county patrols might be using other models & frequencies for enforcement.

if it is wide open, keep your eyes open and expect enforcement. if you are out in the boonies far from larger cities and events, you might be ok.

and most importnt of all, kroeplin is an ignorant, uneducated ass! and he thinks he makes the laws!! We need to make him go away. Enforcement is one thing, But harrassment is his mode of operation!!!!

G20, don't sweat CRAPlin. If he continues to pull his BS, sooner or later he will come upon some of us that won't tolerate it. It's likely ONLY A MATTER OF TIME before he gets his @$$ handed to him (OR WORSE). :frech32: That may NOT solve anything... but it sounds like he has it coming. :div20: Is he the guy in the St. Germain/Sayner area? If not, where does he usually patrol? I personally would like to meet this guy...

i have come across him many times in minocqua area - and also lake tomahawk. and i believe that g2o see him every day. that guy sucks!!!!

I'm going to have to meet this Kroplin guy.. I want to see if he is like all you say. Should be interesting conversation. I'll have to bring up all the fans he has, and ask him if some of these storys are true... Mike

do a google search; keywords Kroeplin, and "Lakeland times". the local paper has been reporting his criminal activity for years, and they recently won a court decision to have his disciplinary record released so they can publish what disciplinary action was used on him for his latest felony.

This guys is a total ass-hole. he is very combative towards everyone, writes citations to law abiding citizens, and basically utilizes a harassment campaign against every private citizen he encounters.
and the guy is stupid, I mean real stupid!! if you were to look up the word stupid in the dictionary, I bet his picture would be there for the definition!!

last season they were marking headlights of sleds at a local tavern (thirsty Whale) and selectively stopping only those sledders when they tried to leave the lake.

Also his nephew did a piss-poor job on a boathouse repair, and when the owner of the boathouse complained about the shoddy work, kroeplin cited the boathouse owner for having a non-compliant building. it is not even is job description to do this, he did this as retribution!! nice guy huh?

I couldn't find the drug planting case against him that settled out of court for $90,000 of our tax money to settle it. but isn't that nice too.

the guy is a menace and an idiot! and this ass-hat is a poor choice to represent the great State of Wisconsin.
he needs to go away!! if you see the name kroeplin, expect trouble!! if he is alone I would almost suggest evasion tactics until another officer is present for your own protection against him and his unlawful strong-arm tactics.

his phone number and e-mail address is readily available with a search engine. I will not post it here for obvious reasons.


I'll toss some links on here for you to learn about this clown.
Copy & paste these if they do not link automatically

here ya go;
http://www.editorandpublisher.com/eandp/ne...t_id=1003252543

http://www.lacrossetribune.com/articles/20...nrnewspaper.txt

:beerchug: :div20: Just play by the rules and you have nothing to worry about G2O. We all know you are going to do what you want and to hell with the rules.

just wondering how much lee way your going to give. Evereyone knows speedometers are way off. Especially thoughts yami riders

So I know this may be different in Wisconsin, but how often do the radar guns need to be calibrated? And if they are not, is the evidence void in CO?

Of course not, they make the rules as they go.

Believe it or not, Wisconsin does not have any laws directly relating to radar calibration by an approved labratory. Most states use a 6-month or 1-year plan to have every unit validated. Wisconsin has nothing to protect citizens against obvious speed traps either. Many other states have specific "Anti speed trap laws"
Some judges will not allow radar evidence if the radar has not been tested within a 1-year period, but no law states that this must be done.

but, there is some relevant case-law that states the radar unit must be checked by use of an external testing method directly before and immeditely after a citation is issued. Tuning forks are the accepted method. the internal systems check does not qualify. But then again, Wisconsin has no set limits on checking the tuning forks for proper frequency. and I have seen some that were all beat up, and not tested for 3-years and the judge allowed that!!

I think if we just keep our mouths shut at the time of ticketing and Do not remind them to check calibration, and wait to fight this in court, we might have a better chance of winning. Just ask for the calibration records in court, and ask what formal training the officer had on this model of gun. also try to ask in a subponea that the gun that was used be in court during the trial.

As soon as I get some time with this gun I'll know alot more about it and post my findings.

here is a link to the manufacturers webpage; http://www.kustomsignals.com/product_body2...gename=handheld

Just a quick question and a few comments. The 55mph law is that for all trails after dark including the lake? We go up to the cable area so wanna make sure we dont break any laws while we are there. Second as far as the radar guns go.... We have to have to have ours calibrated once a year and the i use the tuning forks at the start of every shift for our Python radars in our cars but no one has ever come to calibrate the handheld. I never use the handheld just for that reason cause i would loose that one in court. Fisrt thing they ask and want to see in Iowa is the certification for the radars every year. Alot of it is going to be the operator as previously stated. The operator is going to have to learn how to visually determine the speed and which sled then confirm it with the radar. Im not sure on the roost question but i know our radars pick up alot of false readings....anything from the defrost running to a parked vehicle bouncing it back to the unit. I will say in the past 4 years of working in law enforcement i have never lost a court case for speeding citations. One last question.....how strictly are they going to enforce the speed, 9 your fine and 10 ur mine???? :beerchug:

From the way it sounds having my badge in my billfold prolly wouldnt help with Kroeplin....prolly give a bigger citation to me

Hey Gettin do you get the Wisconsin sled mag? Someone else thinks just like us on the stupid law! But, like I said before we can't change the DNR, they think are God, and we should make it a private company then they would make laws that make sense, this one sucks, i would stop any deaths in my book, the BAC is too high but they don't want to hurt the bars business, bad move but nothing will change IMO. But, I would be happy if it did.