Trail Masters Meeting passing Groomers and Signing

Who went to the signing class? I think it is time for trails Bureau to have a workshop of their own before next years trail masters meeting. Anyone agree? I went to the last class and I walked away in disbelieve that anyone was any the wiser. I wonder who is the TOP DOG on signing in the state?

The stories I am hearing on passing Groomers scare me more

I agree if a trail is (14-ft. for an 8-ft. groomer) or (16-ft. for a 10-ft groomer), or any sleds or groomer are in motion that you never give hand signals. That is only 33% of our trail system.

What about passing on the other 66% of our trail system? There are three possible cases to look at.
1. Sleds behind groomer only. Groomer keeps going till there is room to safely pull to the right and let sleds by. Operator signals he has stopped. The sled operator needs to know you are done moving and it is safe for him to move.
2. Sleds to front of groomer only. Groomer pulls to the right and stops. The sleds must pull out of the trail or turn around and go to a wider part of the trail.
3. Sleds front an rear of groomer I am going to think more on.

Interesting topic. I'm curious to hear some of the replies. You should spend some time in a groomer and see what kind of shit goes on when people encounter a groomer on the trail. Gotta remember to bring a video camera next time. :smilielol:


Me.....I'll wait in the woods if I have too for the groomer to go around.

What if the grommers were to have a red and green light on the front and rear .
Red, do not pass, green, OK to pass....

unfortunately in this day and age it's an issue, people sue because they are stupid. We went over this in the groomer class as well. It's def going to be hard to deal with sleds who just won't go by you but more than anything this is a rider training issue. They need to know that when the groomer pulls to the side they are not going to signal you by and when you approach a groomer on a trail head on the sled must turn around or move off the trail and the rider needs to stand outside the sled so the drag doesn't jump. We actually just had a loudhailer installed so we can inform people to do this but we have had discussion about not signalling anyone for anything.

i think this is a great topic to get going....i think a lot of people dont really know what to do when they meet up with a groomer and i think a lot of people panic some times and they end up doing the wrong thing which can get many people hurt...

I didn't go this year, but I went last year. We talked about red and green lights for passing. Two issues I had were:

1. Damn Strobe lights. Who can see anything with those things going. (I don't mean the Yellow roundy ones).

2. Liability. If I give the go ahead to pass me and somebody comes barrelling from the other side and they hit, who's fault is it? Maybe the laws are there to protect me, but I'm sure they would try really hard to screw me.

Sounds like getting waved through will be a thing of the past. If so let's hope that the clubs that practice "no waving through" will get the message out to their members weather (sorry we need snow) through the website or signage on the trail.
:fluffy:

The premise here is fairly simple.

It is not illegal to waive someone past a groomer.

If you do waive someone past your groomer and nothing happens then simply stated; no loss and no gain.

If you waive someone past your groomer and an accident results, you may be partially or totally liable for said accident.

And if the victim shows you acted recklessly or negligently in waiving them past, you will not be protected under New Hampshire state law and the insurance policy covering you while you are operating the groomer may or will not cover the damges incurred.

If a club installs green/red lights on its groomer with the intention of allowing the operator ease in signalling machines past the groomer, then the club assumes a tremendous amount of liability if the lights are used recklessly or negligently. Simple example, the operator hits the green light by mistake instead of the intended red. Instant negligence on the operator and inferred responsibility of the club depending on the light installation, training, equipment placement and so forth.

Actually, this is no different than if you were on the road in your automobile. If you signal a nother driver or pedestrian into the roadway you assume a portion of responsibility for that person(s) safe passage.

Because there is no easy answer while there a million variables (what ifs) and the liability exposure is tremendous, the State and the NHSA have done the only responsible thing they can do in this case...warn you to not signal sleds past your groomer.

Like I said in the opening, you can disregard this advice and do as you please. But when you do, you immediately duck out from under the umbrella of protection afforded you by the State and the NHSA insurance policy. You truly are alone on your own under those circumstances.

Its not the answer many want to hear, but unfortunately it is the reality of the society we now find ourselves in.

SHORTFUSED900

Thank you for that eloquent, yet frustrating explanation of the latest no-win situation we find ourselves riding into and behind. That will make leading people around the seventeen foot wide blade on our new Piston Bully much more interesting I'm sure.

I'm sure the drivers all want to assist people getting around them, but our society (by your explanation) wont allow them to do that without fear of possible, one in a million liability situations, impacting our respective clubs!

I feel much better now! :banghead: :frech32: :drunk: :lol2: :tease: :wut60:

pathfinder58 :fluffy:

I feel your angst Armand...

Example, current and right here in Dover. A young man driving a relative's car got in to a serious accident where he was reckless & negligent. A young girl was paralyzed. The third party insurance company settled up to the tune of $100,000 and was allowed to walk away from further exposure. Now the girl's attorney has focused his guns squarely on the driver and most likely will attempt to target the community as the road was under construction at the time. The umbrella has blown away and everyone is exposed!

But remember, you still would need to act negligently or recklessly to expose yourself to liability. The risk you are taking is depending on a judge and jury to determine what your true intent was.

Its a cold slap in the face to the many good folks that man our groomers across the State. But its a predicament we can't blame the NHSA or State for.

You say it best in every post you make Armand; We have met the enemy and they are us!

Who is they? What is the greater risk? How come no information was sent to clubs? How do I see this policy in writing?

The "they" were officials from both the Trails Bureau & NHSA staffers that were instructing at last weekend's Trailmasters event in north Conway.

What is the greater risk? Only you can decide.

There is no policy in writing because there is no policy. Everyone was advised that if they signalled from the groomer then they are assuming grave responsibility and liability. Remember, the NHSA and other State & club officials have been attempting to devise some kind of signalling system that may not incur liability on the part of the operator using same. They were unsuccesful.

What they gave was not an order or a policy. They simply advised everyone present that you should not signal sleds to pass your groomer and if you do so, you are doing it at your own extreme risk.

The solution? If you have an idea or suggestion on a signalling system that would exempt a groomer operator from liability when employing such a system, then I know of at least several hundred folks that are all ears!

thanks shortfused. i have to say that with it being explained to me i will never wave anyone past. screw taking an chances with how people are.


i know this is a little different, but yet the same, but i recall a few years back a state plow truck operator waving someone past, the car passed and then crashed. she then in turn sued the state and won because the driver said she was ok to pass.

Just an idea: How about a timed traffic type light. The groomer stops, auto traffic light is turned on, red light to oncoming sleds, green light to following sleds. After a certain amount of time an amber light and then it turns to red to following sleds. Green light goes on to oncoming sleds. Everyone passes safely and the groomer goes on its way. Just an idea???? It seems to work on the roads -- or not!!

This would still make the groomer operator liable.

I feel that most groomer operators already have more than enough to deal with in the cab. The responsibility should be on the snowmobiler to decide when it is safe to pass from behind or head on. If the trail is to tight to pass head on then you turn around and ride till you find a wider area and wait.

Snowmobilers should be responsible for their own actions. :frech32:

This sport is recreation it allows us to relax whats the hurry to pass the groomer.

The policy was just approved a couple of weeks ago and handed out to the County Directors at the last NHSA board meeting on November 21. It will be given to the clubs at their next County meeting. Hopefully I will not get any County Directors upset by posting it here but I think its good to get the word out:


Recommended Practice for Passing By a Groomer
Approved by NHSA Map and Trails Committee

1. For oncoming sleds: The sleds should pull off the trail and allow the groomer to pass by.

2. For sleds overtaking the groomer: The groomer operator should find a safe spot to pull over and stop. The sleds can then check to see if they can safely pass by the groomer.

Note: The operator will not signal for sleds to pass by. Reason: Each rider must take responsibility for passing by the groomer safely.


I have to agree with the comments made by Shortfused in his post above regarding the liability issues. It is truly sad that we cannot signal sleds by for fear of becoming involved in a lawsuit. But we need to do everything we can to protect our operators and the clubs.

:div20:

I cannot believe that Larry and Skip can agree on something! WOW! Just kidding with you guy's. Skip great posts on subject and thanks Larry for posting the procedures. Hopefully some people will retain some of this info and use their heads when coming across the groomer crews.