Here is what I found (just going to do a copy/paste):


George| Gaylord |
October 20, 2006
FYI - For all those that complained about the job Woder Construction was doing with the grooming of the Gaylord area trails not to worry anymore. Woder will not be grooming this grooming season 2006/2007. The Gaylord Grooming Council has found another small business to take over running the groomers. Someone in Gaylord that owns a business and that also was a volunteer driver when Alpine did the grooming stepped up and will be the lead driver. There is a meeting Oct 23rd at the Best Western at which time the 2006/2007 grooming operation will be discussed.

Guess we will found out when the snow flies if it was the place doing the grooming or if it was traffic/snow conditions that caused the bumps.

That sounds like they hire groomers??

:beerchug:

My guess is both. I know Cadillac Winter Warriors groomed the 2nd most miles in the state last year. But, Saturday at 4pm was like a mogul field on the trails.

High trafffic makes it dificult to keep them in good condition on a weekend....

They do not "hire" groomers. It is a bit of an involved process. If you go to the Novi show go see Jerry at the Sled Shed display he will explain it to ya a whole lot better than I can attempting to type it all. I doubt Woder made any money if they did they would still be doing it.

FYI - JVTC groomer almost 3 times more miles than anyone in the lower part of the state. And the 3rd most miles in the whole state. two in the UP did more than them

The key to grooming is too groom at night when the temps are the coldest and there is minimal traffic, this way the trail is allowed to setup, grooming during the day on a busy weekend is a waste of fuel and time.

The other problem in MI is the season opens Dec. 1 ready or not, MI should follow Ontario and Quebecs lead and open the trails, when the trail is ready with a solid 8" to 12" base.

Sounds like they were fired due to complaints? And if they are 'making money', then they are a hired company... no?? Definitely not volunteers!

:beerchug:

Being I have a cabin on the South end of town and the North end of the lake, I'll put my two cents in. It wasnt the trail conditions last year, we had great snow like Later January, It was that they were not out enough. Even after a weekend, it took them untill almost mid week for them to get them groomed, and my cabin sits near the main trail going to waters/fredric right where the lake access connects to the trail. I think I only ever saw 2 groomer units too, A green tractor with chains on the tires, and the new blue one that sits behind the sled shed. Everytime I seemed to pass, the blue one would just be sitting there. I mean when the trails got bad on Friday night, the groomer might have went past my cabin once the whole weekend. My opinion is that they dont have enough groomers nor enough drivers for how many snowmobiles that come up to that area. They just cant keep up. Well at least that is what it seemed like. It just sucked cause last year was the best year for snowfall that I have seen in at least 3 years and you couldnt ride the trails. Me and my buddies stuck mostly to the powerlines and ditchbangin. They need to do something up there. There is a good trail system, but it just needs to be groomed more. Like when I went up to the UP in Seney I saw groomers all over the place.

Agreed, but with all the knuckleheads out there that are so frickin' impatient, they'd ruin the base before it can be flattened out or hardened up. Clubs have to be ready to hit the trails as soon as it is thick enough because of the morons.

Hey wheres your cabin at? I'm at the north end of the lake also so we must be close, I'm right on the corner of stonewood and gigler :div20:

Montecarlo33,

AMEN! I ride this area a lot and I hear what you are saying. At least the grooming operations are being handed off. I wonder if the MSA is aware of this issue? Hopefully they are. Maybe the will start addressing this before they decide to increase permit fees!

I was literally BLASTED when I posted a topic, questioning the notion of a trail permit increase for next season. This post and your above comments is "exactly" what I noticed from last season.

I hope the new club does a better job with grooming operations. One time on a Friday does not cut it for a full weekend. Hopefully the change will save some shocks, and possibly some lives!

you re right !!!!! :div20: grooming during daylight is just throwing your money by the window !!!! at night there s almost no traffic (at least here ) .i use the cold night to fix the trail right .i like when the temperature is between - 15 and - 25 celsius , it become hard packed faster and the trail last longer !!!!! i only groom during daylight after the end of a snowstorm .


groomer !!!!

Awesome Pics....... :fluffy:

I wont argue with what you are saying,but, we dont have enough grooming equipment to groom only at night.The simple fact is that if I only ran the JD that I coordinate ,at night, then the Blue bear would only get done 4 times aweek, and the Alba connector 3 times a week, as opposed to each trail every 24 hrs.Gaylord had other issues,and I personally feel that as long as they are contracting it (grooming) out , they will always have issues. JUST MY OWN OPPINION, but as a grooming council, i dont think you have the neccessary control over it when you contract out. Then there is always the money thing too. I dont see how they can be fiancially successful when they are paying someone else to do it.

in fact money is the biggest factor!!!! last winter i groomed 400 hrs for 7 000.00$ of fuel only + the br guys spent about 10 000.00$.the money coming from the trail passes go to pay the fuel only.we are a small club and they can t afford to pay us a decent salary ,only a few bucks.i groom about 70 miles of trail and my average run last winter was 16-17 hrs per night ,twice a week .





groomer !!!!

If I only groomed twice a week, we would lose the grant for the trail. The LP of Mi is NOT Qubec my friend ! On a GOOD year, we might have 18" of base to work with by feb.,but little to 6" thru dec, and maybe a foot during jan., and on an average w/e , 2300 sleds over the trail. We are paid by the mile,all our labor is volunteer.I dont know how it works in Canada.I am responsible for two trail sections. One is 34 miles, and is groomed daily,its a very technical trail,lots of hills,tight turns and very little open space.It is done as a loop,it has connectors in 3 places that join in to it,so it gets single groomed each time. We go clockwise one day,the next groom is counterclockwise, and so forth.Aveage time is 10 hrs. The other is a connector that is done up 17 miles and then back 17 miles,so it gets double groomed once a day,average time is 7 hrs on that one. So the machine does 68 miles of trail a day,average running time of 17 hrs.Obviously, some of that has to be daylight ! I wish I had all that snow in your pics. Keep it up and I might move !

Hell, I can't believe that they would ruin that fantastic powder!!! LOL :banghead: :beerchug: :beerchug:

Dam, those trail and busting trail pics Groomer posted...doesnt that give you the biggest hard-on! Man would I LOVE to be there sometime... :div20:

Big Bore,

I have a cabin on Buck road right off Michigan Ave(off old 27)/Twin Oaks Rd(the road right off michigan ave, after you cross over the tracks). Its right across the street from Don's Marina and that new "Country western/Hick" Bar, that use to be Tri county meats. Is your area closer to West Ostego lake drive? Let me know we can always use ridin buddies.. :beerchug:

Fire chicken,

Thanks for the Amen...lol. Yeah stupid people tearing them up before we get a good base is the other problem. I think down in the LP they should inforce the "If there isnt a good base, the trails are closed" kinda what Cananda does. But last year we had a good base last year finally, but like I said not enough grooming. I mean we are all expected to pay the fee for the trail permits. You ride in the Gaylord area, the trails are usally shit. You get over to the East Jordan area and they are well groomed. WTF?? :banghead:

I mean it just really pisses me off when I cant ride, nor do I want to that much when the trails are junk like that, I take 27 into town, and see the groomer just sitting there looking pretty behind the sled shed. Thats where the money is, sittin there. I know they are all volenteers, and they work real hard so that we can ride. But I am sure there is someone willing. Shit I would do it on the weekends. How can the trails look so good every where else, and you see groomers out and about every where else I ride? Gaylord is where I ride 98% of the time and I barley ever see them. I duno maybe this year will be better. Something has to change, expecally if Gaylord wants those $$$ back in their pocket. If you groom it....They will come!!



Trbomax,

I have saw you more out your way westward before. I dont think I have ever saw you in Gaylord or going by my Cabin off 27 near West Ostego lake drive. The john deer I was talking about was another one, with regular tires on it and chaines on the tires. It wasnt yours. I am not trying to upset anyone, expecally people to Volenteer. Expecally 17 hrs!! I am manly talking about the brand new groomer that gaylord got that I always see sitting around. I mean if we are getting that many sleds in our area (2300 sleds) then something needs to happen with us stepping up on more groomers. I know its a hole lot more complicated then all that, but something needs to change if they expect those 2300 sleds to want to come back. ya know?

wow !!!!! we don t have that much traffic here !!!! what you have in a w-e ,take a month here !!! the peak of the tourist season is in february .pic with the cable bridge ,first run last winter on dec 27 .some places there was 3 ' of snow !!!


what i do when there s too much snow in the curves(berm too high ) just throw that snow out of the curve!!!!so ,the next run the ''groove '' will be less deep !!!


groomer !!!!! :beerchug: :beer2:



ps:sorry!!! i did nt want to '' hijack'' this thread ,looks like theres not much groomer operators on hcs !!!!

Now I know why Quebec is such a desired destination except for returning to find your truck & trailer missing, like Rob.

Hey, my cabin is less than 1/2 mile from ya, if you go past dons marina the next road on the left is cypress, take that to where it ends, turn right and i'm right on the corner, got some arctic cat signs on my garage, stop in some time or were always out playing on the lake. :div20:

Montecarlo33,Im not upset with anyone! I was just talking to Groomer about the difference in conditions -here and there.

Groomer, have you ever logged on to "groomer Talk" ? its a site for groomers.

Also,as i said before,the groomers in the gaylord system are not volenteers. They are contracted by the Tourisim people to do the actual grooming. The Trail maintanence IS done by volenteers though.So,the GROOMERS are PAID,the MAINTANENCE PEOPLE are not. I think that this alone might limit the ammount of running time on the equipment ,due to $ ? Jerry,if your on here, correct me if I'm wrong please ?

ya !!! thats the sad part of it !!!! i live 400 miles east of mtl and very seldom i hear about stolen sleds in my area !!!




trbomax , i am registred to '' groomer talk '' but don t go there too often !!!!




groomer !!!

It would help if people learned to ride. Keep the snowcross shit at the track. No reason for holeshots in the middle of every straightaway. No real reason to "pour the . to it" out of every corner. How about leaving some some trail for others to ride?





Bingo! If people would just hold their wad and wait for a base, grooming would be easier and the trails would have a chance to set up. But, too many see white ground and just got to fuck up what little is there!

Man, those trials looks SWEET!! like an ice rink!

Can't wait to ride Canada trails again! Seeing our permits are raising next year and the year after, I imagine more Michigan riders will be heading to the border as it won't cost much more to just ride over there for the seasonal permit. Plus... you are sure to have nice trails. Even with an increase in Michigan, there is no gaurantee the trails will get better.

However, I feel snowmobiling revenue will be "down" this season. Based on the economy here, and people I've talked too.... most arent too interested in riding now, solely based on lack of money. There will be a lot of Michiganders who simply cannot afford to ride every weekend. It's a very expensive sport if you trailer and have to get a hotel every weekend. Maybe this weekends sno-show attendance will see if this is reality or fiction. If that's the case... maybe less riders will = better trails in Michigan??? Will wait to see I guess.

Plus... up in the Muskoka, Perry Sound area... I've always been treated with the utmost respect from the locals. Very Nice people!

In the UP... there have been numerous times the locals weren't too happy we were in their bar, establishment...etc. Not the bar owner, rather "Norm" and his buddies at the end of the bar.... looking for a fight.

Agreed, Evil! Too many inconsiderate asswipes out there that think the trail is all theirs and to hell with everyone else. They will never go away and never get that they are screwing it up for others because they just don't care.


Trail Nazi's, Racer Wannabes, Assholes>>>>> :bigfinger::santa_finger:

where is JVTC at? lower part of state? where? best grooming i didn't see it.......my 2c......the first thing they should do is right about now....go down the trails.....ALL OF EM....with a grater and smooth out atv ruts......hardly any do that.....then when grooming begins it will be so much easier to keep flat......they try to do good but have the old mentality. soon as they change there approach it will get better

Thanks for the pictures, they got we all worked up and now I won't be worth a $hit the rest of the day.

I don't about Gaylord yast year but we decided to spend one of our Sunday - Wednesday trips there, what a waste of time and money, Sunday night the trails were shot, we figured that going in, Monday AM went out, trails still not grommed. Tuesday AM still no grommers, Tuesday PM seen the first one just leaving the town area. We said never again to that area and decided another two hours drive was well worth it.

ZLZEBUB-- JVTC is Jordan Valley Trail Counsle. We did get our own dirt grader this year. this is our first one. Turbomax had it out last weekend trying to fix what the oil people and atv's have done. but too much rain last week. he will get the trails graded before the season starts ( WE HOPE). as of right now things are looking good on there trails for the start up :banana: :fluffy:

Here's a couple more groomer pics from last season on Castle Rock Road in Saint Ignace

Woo hoo, getting fired up for da new season! :div20:

That's what I was thinking, too!
Pssh, try buying and maintaining a cottage! Im looking forward to "no bills unless I'm riding" this year... I can stay in a posh hotel and save a ton! :div20:
:div20: except the assholes part... I might fit that category... :smilielol:

:beerchug:

How do you likes Mark's drag? He's building a setup like yours for us to use on the Blue Bear this season.Any pro's or con's ?

Yes, but aren't you comparing 3 - 4 months expenses to 12 months for the cabin.

The first (older) drag works really well. The newer one has a few problems. It is designed a little different than the first one. The snow doesn't pan out real smooth sometimes, but we are trying to adjust the blades to compensate, with some limited success. Might have to cut the blades out and move them if we can't get it the way it should be. The drags are well built. :div20:

the one he is build ing for us is like the one that was parked in front of the visitor center 3 weeks ago,not the one parked parallel to the street. 24 ' long. Which one is that ?

oh man...they are gonna be sweet if ya do that :div20:

Thats always a plus. Hopefully that makes for better riding, well at least westward. Turbomax, dont be a stranger, ya know you can just keep going all the way though Gaylord. I am sure us Gaylord riders would not mind one bit.. :banana:

Oh yeah, so this weekend there was a few inches, and there was some riders all ready on the trail on old 27 in front of my cabin riding allready. Man, its people like that, that ruin it. I was waiting for a State Boy to roll by and see it. But no luck. Figures I do a rolling stop a few weekends ago in a little ass neigborhood where their should have been a yeild sign and not a stop sign and I get harrasted every which way, cause if you got tinted windows obviously you are packin heat.. :frech32: Sorry just blowing off some steam..lol

Not sure which drag was on the street, I didn't look that close the last time I was UP there. The longer drag is giving us the problems. Late last season Groomer Keith adjusted the blades and got it working a bit better, but the ribbon still wasn't ideal sometimes. The problem drag is shown in my pic above. It was working okay at that time, but there was a deep base on that trail, and it was pretty flat before grooming.

Is the drag they are building for you going to have wings on it?

That answers my question. We are getting one like the one that you weighted the pan with concrete,but w/o the wings,and 10'wide.

FYI, when the wings were up on the problem drag, the problem with the ribbon went away.
So you should be good to go... :div20:

All this groomer talk on the Gaylord board is making my jelous. Damn... :banghead: Where the hell is the Gaylord groomers at?? :burp: :linemup:

Hey a new update off the Gaylord Area Snowmobile message board:

*****************
Don - alpinetrails@charter.net| Gaylord, MI |
November 06, 2006
I had a very nice conversation with Paul Beachnau, who is still the Tourism Director, and yes, the Gaylord Area Snowmobile Trails Council will be using a different group to operated the groomers. I will leave it to Paul, and/or the Trails Council to make the names public, but Paul seems very enthusiastic and confident about the decision.

The last two seasons have certainly been a learning experience for everyone, and as we go into a new season, I hope that everyone can put the past where it belongs and join me in wishing Paul and the Trails Council the best.

*****************

:frech32: :frech32:

You all need to understand,we can grade everything ,but if the weather stays warm, and the hunters and quads are all out on it after (no bashing here) we have done it for nothing.We cant grade after Dec 1, and it is politically incorrect to grade during gun season. A freeze up as close to gradeing as possible is very important.Heavy rain and wheeled vehicle traffic will put it back to square 1.

yes i feel for ya there.......but i hunt with a gun and i would not mind if a grader came by. hell it might scare somethin my way. wonder if ya could get like a permit from DNR to grade em at the end of the season or is there too many nuts with guns and not safe. but i've seen how the hunters treat the trail.....wow......gas on and thats it....till the frame bottoms in the ruts....you guys are doin a great job and at least we are hashin out some new ideas that might work :div20: the grooming would be/last about 10 times easier/longer if this could be done.....thus saving even the hunters money.....or if ya could just convince em it would save em money......most are probably business owners and such anyways....thanx for everything and keep plugin TRBOMAX :div20:

How much is an ORV sticker? This is for trail use. Hopefully if our permits go to $40/$50 a year... I say the 4 wheeler croud... ORV permits, should go up too!

This way... everyone pays to tear up the trail and fix it again. IN fact... The ORV's do much more damage then sleds... but the tree huggers are completely FOCUSSED on us!

WTF?

Teed,
the big (newer) drag was teh one on the street.

Turbomax, if you want to discuss drags, I would welcome the conversation, when I have time.

And being politically, correct - to hell with the hunters, if it needs to be graded, do it as late as possible, and just get it done. They can deal with a grader being in the woods for a few hours. Unless you are on private lands, they can't open their mouths.

And Chicken,
the tree huggersd go after snowmobiles because we are more organized, and most importantly, we have more money. If the ORVs had the $$, you can bet that they would be targeted too.

-Neil

We are presently negotiating with the DNR to grade the ORV trail during the summer,3 times. This money would come from ORV funds, and we would be doing it as a contractor. The Fall gradeing on the Blue bear is typically done by the DNR, but I cant say where the funding comes from. I will ask tomorrow. The gradeing that we do on the Alba connector comes from snowmobile funds, BUT, this trail is not a dual use,no ORV's are permitted in the off season.We COULD grade during gun season, and likely will because it has been so wet this fall,but it does present a conflict of interest(IMO).

Any new news on the grooming in G-town?

Great thread. Thanks to all of the groomer operators. I've spent many hours in the tractor and love every minute of it.

For those of you who complain about bumpy trails and poor conditions, PLEASE feel free to contact ANY club and volunteer. If you have time to bitch, you have time to help us out ALL year long. The snowmobile season is year round when dealing with trail maintence. I'm sure you can help clear brush, pick up trash, use a post hole digger, drive a pickup truck with someone clearing overhead branches, cut with a chain saw, put up signs, take down signs, fix fences, fix bridges, drive tractor with dirt drag, drive tractor with snow drag, drive tractor with front blade up, drive tractor with front blade down, groom to fast, groom to slow, groom when it's to warm, groom when it's to cold, (do I need to continue?)

GROOMER, great pictures! I'll share some of my grooming pictures soon!