This is a plagerised and changed dyno result that I have.. high lighting some of the important pieces
I take no credit for this.. except the time I took to post and make minor changes...

1999 XCR800 tune up

The XCR 800 can make good HP with a little $$$
stock 450 jets were good for zero F, installed 420’s per the Mikuni slide rule. This baseline was ultra safe at .700+ BSFC. All tests shown were done with ignition switch in premium gas mode. XCR800 baseline pull@ 156.4 Stock XCR800, 420 mj to compensate for 55 degreeF air

With a riding style with 1/4 mile runs on 92 octane in mind fuel flow was reduced another @ 5% by dropping main jet size 5% to 390’s. This leaner high .60’s BSFC spec would be baseline for comparing upgrades.

RPM Trq HP BSFC fuel/hr
8200 100.2 156.4 0.759 116.4 0

XCR800#3 158.1 with mains reduced to 370's

RPM Trq HP BSFC fuel/hr
8100 102.5 158.1 0.692 107.2

Leaving the quiet stock muffler in place, a set of DynoPort (same as HTG) triple pipes were installed. the pipes netted a solid 10 HP gain, along with an extra 5 lb/ft torque. With these pipes, there is extra HP everywhere. with the stock muffler being used, no neighbors will be annoyed and no noise citations will be issued. XCR8005 168.0 install DynoPort triple pipes 370 mains

RPM Trq HP BSFC fuel/hr
8100 108.9 168.1 0.662 109.1

Next was a low-buck XCR800 cylinder shim kit 2 base gaskets and an aluminum spacer that provided a .024” increase in cylinder height. and the addition of some billet heads squish was reduced from stock .055” to .040’ and now uncorrected compression ratio was increased from [measured volume installed was 28.5cc vs 25.5cc stock] 11.5-1 to 12-5-1. as well as fins on the coolant side of the domes to help heat transfer. This produced about 5 HP and 3 lb/ft torque. XCR8007 172.5 370 main cylinder shims and custom 12.5-1 heads

RPM Trq HP BSFC fuel/hr
8100 111.8 172.4 0.651 109.8
8200 110.5 172.5 0.639 107.9
8300 107.5 169.9 0.659 109.5

The addition of a DynoPort muffler that fits exactly like the stock muffler, though lighter and a bit louder 92dB at peak HP vs 84 dB stock. Note that with the DynoPort can, fuel flow lb/hr increased so airflow is higher than stock. Higher airflow combined with higher HP is a win-win for engines, since it decreases the likelihood of detonation. A couple more HP, another lb/ft. lighter weight, just a few more dB.
XCR8008 174.7

RPM Trq HP BSFC fuel/hr
8100 112.4 173.4 0.685 116.1
8200 111.9 174.7 0.664 113.4
8300 109.6 173.2 0.662 112.1

Vforce2 reed cages added As you can see fuel flow jumped again implying higher airflow CFM. As a result we picked up an incredible 5 HP and 3 lb/ft torque! Sometimes aftermarket reeds help, sometimes they don’t but this is one application that surely justifies the expense.
XCR8009 180.2 Vforce 2 reeds 370 mains Dynoport 12:1 heads shim kit

8000 115.2 175.5 0.626 107.5
8100 114.7 176.9 0.638 110.4
8200 113.5 177.2 0.662 114.8
8300 114.1 180.2 0.665 117.2
8400 108.5 173.6 0.689 116.9

Things I have noted:

Additional fins on the heads for heat transfer
a freer flowing can "reduce detonation" But too Loud for trail riden IMPO
I run a 1.5" hole in the bottom of my stock xcr can..
this was recomended back in 2000 - 2001 by HTG

even with pipes in to stock can 8100 rpm is the #

but jumps slightly to 8300 with the addition of vforce II's and free flowing "Louder can"

8100 it is Roger! NOT 8500 as many including Dyno Port have stated. And, remember, in the field with cold air hitting the pipes, the rpm will tend to be lower than seen on dyno until pipes get really hot.

My own field testing confirms all of this data except the hp gain using the Dyno Port pipes. I saw no performance improvement PERIOD with a stock ported engine and V-Force reeds. This was in field testing on ice against a similar sled with stock pipes.

Furthermore, NOBODY's pipes (THAT I KNOW OF) work any better than stock on a stock engine. Some even lose performance.

Rich Daly of Dyno Port stated to me that most pipe manufacturers were exaggerating their gains by a lot. 21 hp, Hot Seat! 18 hp SLP! 9 hp Dyno Port!

A nephew of Carl Galloway in St. Johns Mi told me he tested every other pipe on Carl's dyno and they all lost hp. He finally made added hp with HTG pipes after extensive porting.

I now own a Dyno Mite dyno. I'll test my own basically stock 800 soon. Then turboed.

PSI never made a set of pipes for this engine for a good reason.

Phil

Phil, I agree! I have also never seen JUST pipes add performance on a stock XCR. Now, add a set of HTG or Dynoport pipes along with some GOOD cylinder and crankcase porting, head work, V-force and some airbox mods and you can make 182-183 honest hp all day long at 8300 rpm. :banana:

That being said I can also say I have NEVER seen a HTG 180 kit come close to 180hp. I know this article is from spam and I usually trust Jim 100% but I have a tough time buying this one. I had two friends that put theirs on the dyno with the 180 kit and they were in the 165hp range. They then had them ported and done right and pulled 182-183hp.

well I guess I am answering some of my own questions.. I state quite often about VFII being only marginal if any gains on a stock motor maybe slight throttle responce.. so the same would go for aftermarket pipes on a stock motor... Stock Motor = NON Ported.. thats a stock motor in my mind..
Head VForce reeds and pipes wont make a damn bit of difference unless porting goes along with the complete package.

Not quite my experience Roger. V-Force reeds DEFINITELY added 2-4 sleds lengths to my stock piped, stock ported, reclutched, rejetted, geared down to 23/41 800 XCR in a drag race against a similar sled. Made an unequivocal improvement. Took me from losing to beating that sled. And it occured primarily in the midrange.

Doug Flannery also told me that the HTG shim kit didn't work well because it raises all ports including the transfers which are already too high. He actually lowers the transfers on a full race application. The wrecked sled I bought the spare 800 XCR engine from originally had the shim kit in it. The BIL used to beat it with his stock engined sled. It was a slug.

SLP heads also didn't add a thing either. BIL bought mine in hopes of beating my sled. Didn't work. When Flannery ported his engine, he moded the heads for better safety on pump gas.

Phil

I had a set of Hot Seat trail head that Doug uses quite frequently and I sold them not to long ago. I had intentions of putting them on and according to doug, would be a waste of time.

"...both sets of heads(stock and Hot Seat) are very close to the same volume (28cc bench volume). The stock heads have a tighter and wider squish in the making them more prone to detonation, especially when you increase the cylinder pressure with porting. We dont use the HSP heads to make power we use them for reliability. SLP heads would make a little more power than stock but reliability would be questionable at sea level..."

Funny.....it seems the more I hear about all of these "bolt-on go fast goodies" not working, the more I feel like leaving things stock.

Primarily one of the reasons I sold my Hot Seat heads....unless I was willing to spend a shit load more money on porting cylinders and stuff, there was no use keeping them.

Phil, did you do anything else when you added the V-force? Clutching? Not doubting they add a LITTLE to the power on a stock sled but no way 2-4 sled lengths in acceleration.

I'm with you 100%, we add all this crap to our sleds and we only go a few sleds faster then if you just optimized the clutching on a stock engine.

Talked to my buddy today who had a xcr800, forgot the year, fast as heck, ran great, totally stock, AND NEVER IDLED HIGH. Loved it, just a little heavy for his riding style.

Most of this talk is about putting a tripple in a edge chasis, so you need different pipes, most likely most people run the 02 air box, for the added kick we port and put reeds in it, so the headaches begine.

Heres a story, my buddy runs a poo 800 twin with a slp single and stock can, Every thing else is stock on the engine.

I did the slp perf package for about $2000, My sleds a whole 3 sleds faster then his, woopee f'n do. My tripple of coarse is a lot faster but then again its got 3 holes.

Another thing, a xcr800 implated into a edge chasis, with porting and pipes heads bla bla bla,,, will probably be just as fast as a stock xcr chasis, edge skid vs. extra 10. Make the edge chasis a 136 and you might get beat by a stock xcr chasis.

I know the next new sled I buy will remain stock except for suspension, seat , handi bar mods. No manufacture makes a sled that fits my 6'5'' frame.

The only time engine mods show up is on a drag race, you can do all you want, have all the hp, come out the woods behind me, all that hp is not going to get you around me unless I make a mistake or the field is a 1/2 mile long.

But in the long run its nice to know your the fastest sled in your pack, Its---- Do you want the go the extra to do it or not. All this time remember,,,what % of the time are you drag racing or cruising.

Another way I look at it.

50% of the stuff we buy to make our sleds faster does nothing at all.
40% works half as good as claimed.
10% really works.

I did no other changes. And, believe me it was impressive. The other sled already had them and was faster thru the mid range. The reason he was is that he was previously using a Hot Seat clutch kit and I was beating him with my stock reed engine. So, he asked me to help him set his clutch up with 55-7 heel Clicker weights like mine. We left my sled alone and just dialed his in to run 8100 rpm. It became several sleds faster than mine in the midrange. He was happy that he was finally beating me. So, I just added the V-Force reeds and beat him as badly as he had beaten me.

We've been going back and forth every season. He had his engine ported by Flannery using moded SLP heads. So I went to a 50 degree Super Torquer variable radius helix and Super Torquer conversion kit and Cat secondary. This was still faster than his ported sled with Dyno Port pipes and stock secondary with R-12 helix. So, he put his 110 lb grandson on it and he was now faster on top end. Then, I switched to a Paragon secondary. Now I was faster against his grandson.

I believe in getting as much as you can from the stock setup with carefully selected accessories. I sold my Paragon to a guy who just had to have one immediately and went back to my Cat setup, but the BIL was a little faster. So, I bought it back and am ready for him again this year. Friction reduction, rotating weight reduction, plenty of traction and good clutching is more important than hp. BIL even switched to extrvert track drivers. I stayed stock. He didn't gain a thing.

BIL originally used to run 450 mains. Now he's at 420s and wants to go lower, because I'm at 400s, but is afraid to because he's had some burndown problems due to a leaky waterpump. He also tried higher rpm and I beat him badly. 81-8200 is where he runs now even with Porting and pipes. This is exactly what Rogers dyno test data indicates.

I've beaten numerous Flannery and HTG set up sleds with mine just because mine is tuned finer. I look forward to the big XCR meet this Jan/Feb in MI at LPL to see how well setup everyone really is. If dyno hp was all that mattered, we wouldn't need racing to see who wins. I've beaten sleds with 217 dyno tested hp, so dyno hp doesn't impress me until they beat me.

I'd be willing to bet that porting with stock pipes is just as fast as with aftermarket ones.

Phil

Phil,

Just wondering but are most of your sleds setup for drag racing or trail riding. A lot of drag racing/ clutching / carb setups don't work real well for trail running.

I know you know what your doing, but alot of the clutch's / mods / jetting and all, seem a little scary for trail and 5 mile long wot runs.

Adding just reeds and pulling that many sleds makes me wonder though. Reeds increase the midrange hp slightly I agree, but thats at 5000-7000 rpm. When you race someone a engine is sitting at 8000+ rpm.

I have taken sleds and got them running pretty close to each other in a drag race, put stock reeds in one sled, and didn't change the outcome at all. This was on a twin 800.


Don't take offence to my statement, but 90 % of us are trail riders, and are tring to optimize trail running/ durability.

This Has been on my mind ALL Day

so with the bottom of the jugs and case opened up nicely. mild port work and pipes at 9200 can I expect to see closer to 200?

rileys is supposed to be right around 210. 9800 rpm. race ported on 114 fuel. in a 450 lb sled ready to run!!!

as far as improvements in speed. I dont think it is worth it. I am doing this to my sled for the bling and local advertisement.
on the race track I was getting 113, got 115 once in 1000' . with the pipes and porting I might get a 118. not bad for a pump gas trail sled. but only gaining 3 mph is a lot of work. for pure trail riding I would stay stock.

I also did the motor changes because the pipes lost a good amount of wieght. I added the 144 track and am doing more off trail riding. so lighter wieght in waist deep snow is starting to become important.

next will be the powder coating kit to do the motor and other small parts!!!

I've been reading your posts for a few years now. I bet you can't resist

Absolutely no offense taken Al.

I realize that many have different opinions and experience. I'm just honestly sharing my own experiences for others to try if they want. I don't believe in hoarding information so I can be the fastest. In fact, I'd like to see all 800 XCRs run like mine so we aren't embarrased by lesser sleds.

I too am a trail rider first. But, I don't race much on the trail like many do. Instead, I save that for the hard packed road or ice. So, in that regard, I don't try to be the fastest from corner to corner. That's why at my age I am in just as good a shape as a 40 year old. I look like 40 years old to many. I try to not be too hard on the body. I guess I try to get as much out of myself as my sled, but without abusing myself or the sled.

With that being said, I am a detail minded tuner much like some others and yourself. I've proven to myself that you can excell by paying attention to details. I earned a living doing just that at Chrysler for 36 years.

Because of my help, my BIL is the man to beat in his local area in Canada. Yet, he always is one or two steps behind me because I never quit improving my own sled.

I'm well aware that V-Force reeds don't always show a performance gain. It depends a lot on the tuner and on the basic design of the engine.

So, let's continue to share knowledge and learn from each other in an amicable fashion.

Phil

Would you say that if you spent your time fine tuning the flannery and htg sleds they would come out on top of your sled? Or are you saying that that the engine mods do nothing over a fine tuned stocker?

Well I didn't say anything about selling my edge/ tripple, whats the biggest jugs you can bolt on that bottom end? :banana:

When you get into mod sleds you almost need two sleds, the season is just to short. You need a sled that will just plain old run and make you happy, gas it oil it grease it.

I learned this when I did my pos 1155 project, if it wasn't for a backup sled,,, well you get my point.

The xcr800 tripple is proven and you really don't need a back up sled, as long as you remember its issue of the center jug, and a little high idle.

Some of these new sleds are getting 17 mpg+, thats great, just think about that riding up north in canada when the closest thing that resembles fuel is some moose pissing in the snow.

:beerchug: Wish I could have one with you.

Wish we all didn't live so far apart, love to hook up with many of you, and tune together, and share ideas on a face to face basis.,
Of coarse then play in the snow and see who wins.

I don't consider myself a expert tuner in the first place, I just use some common sense. Now if you want a creature comfort sled that puts the handle bars in the right spot, seat in the right spot, making the rear and front end, spring / shock combo work for you. Thats where i love spending my time.

One of the best mods to my edge was taking the 04prox floor board out side foot grabby things and putting them on my edge. Then made a template out of cardboard , cut .090 aluminum, tig welded it in, and now have wide floor boards.
Really got to learn how to post pics.

Phil, I agree with you that tuning is KEY! My buddy had a bone stock 2000 XCR8 and I had it dialed in. We also ran 192 1.175"(if I remember correctly) studs in it so it hooked up hard. I embarassed more modified triples on that sled than I can count. I'll never forget a guy egging him to race with an XCR8 with Hot Seat heads, pipes, porting, Vforce, airbox mods, the works. Thing was a TURD, made noise and didn't go. My buddy waxed him by about 8 sleds!

Now, that being said, a properly tuned Flannery XCR8 would smoke his sled. Another friend had one and I helped dial that in using the stocker for comparison. When we got done dialing in the Flannery sled the stocker would run dead even with it un til about 40mph then the Flannery sled would walk away. I would say from 40 to 90 mph it would put 6-7 sleds on the stocker. Very impressive.

There are a lot of guys out there that spend a TON of money on aftermarket mods and just throw the "recommended" clutch set-up in and call it good. All the power in the world won't make it faster if it's notgetting to the ground! Clutching, clutching, clutching.

I had the same experience as NVR8NF when it comes to my Flannery ported xcr. I raced a guy last year that claimed his xcr was 185hp but i think he said he had the stock pipes. Mine was Flannery ported, htg pipes and such. We lined up and we were side by side until about 50-60 mph. Then i checked out and put about 6-7 sleds on him in about 1000 ft. He was slightly upset. His buddy had an 05 mach that belonged to one of the worlds fastest grass draggers previously that had nitrous, and without the juice i smoked him pretty bad. When he was on the juice, he beat me by about 1 sled length in 1000'. That mach had unbelievable midrange on the sauce. I don't know how much juice he was given it cause he was upset too and didn't want to talk much after, but by the way he was bragging it up before we raced, i assume it was a good size shot. Don't want to start a pissin match, but i've beat alot of stock xcr 800s' with my 800 twin in 1000'. I've never been impressed with a stock one yet. I never ran mine stock. I wouldn't either. When and where is this get together you guys mention?

This 1

http://www.hardcoresledder.com/forums/inde...=169323&hl=

:div20: :div20: :div20: :div20: :div20:
I'd rather spend $ on efficiency improvements anytime.

Phil

Can you be more specific on "its issue of the centre jug" ?

I've never heard anything about problems with cylinders/piston burn down on an XCR? Water pump failure causing antifreeze burn up a cylinder.....maybe......but

Port it, pipe it, reeds, and load the primary with wieght and the center will be the first to detonate.

Do a quick search or just page throug untill you find the Topic on xcr cracked piston and read away.