Hello- Just trying to get an answer as to why on 99% of the Blue Trail Signs showing a town, gas stop or Lodge, there is NO KM distance posted? I just got my current issue of OSM and on page 51 there is a picture of exactly what I am asking about. We have 16 Blue signs showing all kinds of towns, businesses and at the lower righhand side is the familiar KM with NO distances to that town or business. It surely would help,especially at intersections if the underlined KM would have a distance posted to let riders know exactly how far away they may from a place.I have asked both the OSM and the OFSC and am awaiting an answer.I have asked a few various club members whom I met on the trails and none of them could explain this. Anyone?? I know here in the States, when our club places a sign pointing to a gas stop or motel on the trail, there is always a distance posted also. Thanks in advance to anyone who can explain this.

This is my beef too! How hard is it, do it all the time in Quebec.

This was a small topic at the AGM this year...

The reasoning is simply that the club has not put it on there, I would assume because of trails changing
each year, therefore km's are always changing. I suggested that we use reflective number stickers for the
distance as I have seen this done in a couple of clubs in Ontario.... This issue is one of many that are being looked at over the next couple of years, all in a hope to make Ontario's trails more uniformed and similar right acrossed the province...

I guess we will just have to be patient and see if it happens.

:beerchug:

I also agree,seen so many town signs over the last few years with no kms marked on it.It's even worse at
a major intersection with at least a dozen or so towns and atleast that many sledders stopped deciding which
town is closest to get fuel.

Signs here in Sudbury have the KMs

Check out page 51 of OSM mag just sent out.

Because Distance is only relative to how badly you are lost !

Speaking for my Club, we replaced our old out dated signs a couple years ago with the new "blue" ones. I think everyone had full intensions of checking the mileage and putting the distances on the signs. Unfortunatly we never seemed to get around to it. I have all the detail on GPS now and it could be easily done.

I think it's something that some people just never get around to, and come sign instalation time it's a lot easier to put up a blank sign than to remember which sign goes where.

like someone else said this type of thing has become an OFSC priority, I'm sure you will be seeing changes in the near future.

I can see some volunteer activities here ........

A sign for a gas station, or a town with no mileage is next to useless to anyone but the locals, that know the area and don't need the signs anyway. Seeing a sign for a gas station with no mileage when I am passing through an area with 100 miles on my sled tells me nothing. Should I turn and go back to the last station I saw or is it just up the trail 2km. I would think to promote out of area sledders it would be good if they could tell where they are. Here is a sample of the signs in my area here in Nova Scotia, very tourist friendly.

Guys:

There is no question it would be nice to have. But as mentioned there is a limited amount of volunteer manpower.

I would like to draw your attention to the maps issued by the major club associations. Those maps issued by the MSR, PSSD etc HAVE the mileage on them. They print a number along side each trail section. It only takes a minute to look at it and add up the distance from where you are to the town you are head to.

Personally, I use these religiously when planning a ride to a location I have not been before - obviously leaving some room for error.

The Mileage on the MSR map can be seen here - http://www.msrsnowtrails.com/docs/trailmap_04-05.pdf

Same with where I ride.

Red Rocket- I don't know how many years you have been riding or how many miles you ride each season but I have been riding since 1969 and over the last 5 Seasons usually ride between 3200 miles and 4500 miles PER Season, 99% of them on OFSC Trails. I have belonged to snowmobile clubs since the early 70's when there, unlike today, mandated signs and other regulatory mandates. Our club had less than 15 members and we all volunteered especially when it came to trail signage.Our riding areas locally depend on the business of the sledders each season to make ends meet and without any signs, directions or distances, these businesses would not have survived as no one would even know they existed. As for lack of volunteers, if someone has the job of maintaining and erecting these signs, how big of a job is it to put up a few numbers designating the distance to a point? Which over in Ontario means alot to riders who have never been in that area before .Because of the vast amount of trail miles and extreme weather at times, we also use the paper maps to decide where and when we are going but at times, say during a storm or when lost and need gas, these signs become VERY IMPORTANT. Especially when there are riders who may have kids or ladies with them. We do mostly long distance saddlebag rides and at times we would have really appreciated some KM distances to decide whether to press on or get off the trails. I am not usually a complainer but when I see something like this that could improve all's riding experience I just had to ask. I also have gotten a few PMs telling me that they too are in agreement.

Pete: First - RELAX!!

I agree it would be great to have accurate distances on all signs. It is presently on many already.

However - I simply do not see it as a top priority of a volunteer organization with very limited manpower and a looooong list of things they need to accomplish - most of which are MUCH more important than having a # on a sign.

I understand it would make things easier - but - please see above.

Also - I think it is ridiculous for riders to "expect" or demand these types of things. Personally - I would NEVER allow a # on a damn sign to be the factor on determining if I will run out of gas or not. I plan that well in advance, carry every map that I might possibly end up on, and use a handlebar mounted map pouch so the map is visible without even coming to a complete stop!

To me - this issue is simply not important enough to complain about or to tell already overworked volunteers they are not doing enough.

the entire issue about the "Businesses Relying on Sledders" is an entirely different topic. Personally I think the lack of direct support that the local clubs actually recieve from those businesses is shameful.

My "experience" is not the issue here. But if it matters to you. I started my riding on a 1972 Polaris Colt 175. I was 6! I got my sled license when I was 12 (actually - I wanted it SO BAD I lied about my age and got it when I was 11!!). I have been riding just about every weekend in the winter for the past 21 years. To give you an example of how much and how long I have loved this sport - when I was 15 I spent $4000 of my own hard earned money (basically 15 years of savings) on a 1985 Yamaha Phazer. The next year when I was 16 I sold that and spent $6,284.53 of my own $$ on a brand new 1988 Yamaha Exciter - bought if from Royal City Cycle in Guelph - which was owned by the guy who now owns Royal Distributing - before his dealership closed. We have a cottage in Muskoka and to sum it up I have been "hardcore" since birth basically! In the early 1970s my father was a Boa Ski dealer out of our garage. Still ride with my 69 year old father as one of my riding partners. We usually log 2500-3000 miles.

But hey - that is me and we are all entitled to our opinions.

Next time you are trying to decide to press on or get off the trail - look at the map and add up the numbers - it is simple really!

In regards to business relying on the traffic being guided to their outlet, perhaps they may want to volunteer to post these signs as it would directly benefit them.We are looking for volunteers clik the link below to sign up or pm me and I wll gladly put you to work.

not trying to start a pissing match but,if these signs are mounted at the same main intersections or turns
or whatever year after year,which i'm sure most are,then there is no reason for the mileage to be missing.someone from that club surely must have a reasonable guestimate on kms to next destination

Thanks all for the replies Guys.Guess we aren't all wrong!! BTW- maybe if these signs were posted with distances, we all could throw the GPS away! Have a good riding season and I will post when and if I hear from the OFSC. By the way also-I in NO way intended to infer that these great volunteers from all the clubs are not appreciated because in all my previous posts I would be the first to tell them Thank You!. I too belong to 2 Snowmobile Clubs here and just recently joined one in Northern Ontario. :beerchug:

Pete, I agree with you that milage markers (even if they are just rough estimates) should be on all the trail signs. :div20: I mean how the hell do you know how far it is to town to get gas, etc, if you don't have a local trail map of the area. If you are doing a big trip it is possible that you may not have all the maps you require and thus all the information.

I agree with Pete, It should be done on each sign.

Both of you make good points, I generally leave the map reading up to my riding partners, cause i'm lazy, but Red is also right, the maps have the mileage on them, if you can't add them or read #'s, then what differnce would it make on the sign.

The sign is convenient, yes, but should it be mandatory, who cares.

Look at it this way, it keeps the idiot .............. who don't know how to read a map and are probably reckless from tearing up you trail system.

That was close to bashing Vince.

:no_bashing:

Especially for people who never, ever, ride with a map... :drunk: :div20:

and do you know how much that cost $$$$$$ and time and effort

+ you have idiots who shoot signs up or people who do not like the trails system paint the signs which adds significant cost to our operations

Click to view attachmentClick to view attachment
I know our trails around Sudbury are constantly changing and have re routes yet we try to have the KMs on destination signs




why would you say that other than to

It is just the Illinoisees that cramp our trails :wut60:

We have about 2-3 of these per club in Sudbury(8clubs) at the point you enter a certain clubs trails

Hey I can do that I'm an American :smilielol: The reason I'm sharing my ON info with you is because your Canadian :div20: :beerchug:

Hell, I'm just glad when there is any signs at all at an intersection.

I forget where I was this one time but we pulled to an intersection, signage said fuel 5kms off trail or 40 kms to next town. I watched my odometer and it was closer to 60, got to town on fumes. The guy at the station said "oh yeah, that was before they rerouted the trail. Since then I take the #'s with a grain of salt.

its pretty easy to think it should be done when your not the one doing it, isnt it? if its that important to you, get out there and give them a hand... carry a trail map and all these problems are solved. besides, what better way to volunteer than to ride a trail and figure out the distance, then go back and mark it.

Agree with both of em...............would be nice to see it on at least intersection signs but I do also understand how volunteer time gets eaten up doing other things.

Just a clarification it's "Illini" :beerchug:

I would think that in most cases a grommer would have or know the approx. millage from point to point, It may take a few years but I'm sure each sign could have the millage.
I personally carry a map and plan my route but there are MANY tourists to the area that it would help considerably.

By the way POLARIS98, Thanks for vollenteering your time to help with trail system. :fluffy: Your the best :div20:

the FIGHTING ILLINI :wut60:

You all make some interesting points for trail mileage signs. However, there are some things to consider. For example, I don't think that the OFSC will put up money for these signs. I know that hasn't been proposed here yet, perhaps I'm moving ahead of the subject. These markers/signs would have to be made up as you go along the trails, either grooming, or brushing etc. in order to achieve some kind of accuracy. Also, in most cases, these signs/markers would not be re-usable in the event that trails are moved. Signs would have to be put up or taken down as business owners decide whether to stay open or close during each and every season. You can only put so much information on a sign - piece of wood, metal, etc..

My suggestion to help with this improvement of trail information is going to be to put that very same information on our website daily ++ trail report against each and every trail. Approximate mileage, services and times of operation will be given. In the event that a business would open or close during the season, or close on a certain date as spring draws near, that information will be updated on the advice of the busness establishments. Once again, as in our trail reports, current information is going to be available.

Could you not put temporary millage stickers on the sign itself? The stick on type like the ones they sell at hardware stores for house # ect.

True but I believe the OFSc has certain colors they want

But I do understand what you mean Jamie :div20:

as for business and there distance that should be up to the business to donate $$$ to the club for the $$$ they recieve

I know up here not many businesses support the clubs financially yet are more than willing to have a trail to there establishment and reap the awards

Support the businesses that support your clubs and the OFSC :div20:

Yes "YOU" could, so pm me and we can get out there or better yet click on the link below and I will contact you.

I believe I am correct in saying that all groomed OFSC trails are GPS'ed. From that information distances from known points or intersections can be determined with great accuarcy. Having a distance on a sign cost no more than not having it on, it is in the price of the sign. Perhaps it could be put on trails that are not in risk of being lost to landowner disputes etc. Myself when touring it is nice to slow down look at the sign and cruise on, that way you don't have to stop take your helmet and gloves off and dig out a map.

Yes, I guess that you could. However, as far as I know, the OFSC isn't required to put out mileage information with regards to "services" located on the trails. They post information on the trails that only pertains to the snowmobile traffic act and anything government required. You would also require a pole or something to hang the sign onto, plus the detailing of the sign information (mileage, service, etc.) There would be costs incurred.

Thus, this cost would more than likely have to be born by the clubs themselves. I don't know what the costs would amount to. My guess, is that the cost would not be that much if you keep it simple. But if you put up the billboard type signs which would give a lot more detail about names of establishments for gas, food and lodging, then perhaps the vendors of these services should put up the money, have the signs made up and the clubs would install them on the trails in the appropriate locations.

There's a bit more to it than meets the eye - at first glance.

Just for information, I keep our site updated on a daily basis - Sunset Trail Riders, Kenora, Ontario with regards to the trail reports/conditions and any other postings via the forum boards. Our site is current as things change on a daily basis. That way, if an establishment for example, shuts down, changes it's hours because of low traffic volume, etc. the website will advertise those changes as they come to me. Regarding trail reports, that is always current. If a trail is only partially groomed because of mechanical problems, the site advertises those conditions. Current information is a must as we see it.

Some of the clubs around southern Ontario do charge for signs on the trail for businesses. I thought this was province wide. The number I got from a gas station was $200 per season to put his own sign along the trail.

Yes we charge for business signs

they need to support the trails that feed them

......and so they should!!!!!!!!ass,grass or gas-nobody rides for free.

You would be incorrect with that statement.

There are many kms of trail that have yet to be GPS'd, it's something they are working on but no where's close to being ALL done.

We just ordered new blue destination signs to replace our losses from last year. We don't list distance because when they go missing we can replace from minimal spare stock. They will have fuel, food etc but no km's.

Sign theft is a huge problem that costs us way to much money.

Other reason is re-routes. Due to crops and landowner changes the distance can often vary year to year. We're trying to maximize the limited funds we have and work as smart as posible to keep the trails going.

We're working on intersection map posts that will also show proximity to destinations. The intersections are numbered and will corelate to the generic map. I just have to get busy and get them finished up.

Any designs of intersection map boards would be appreciated.

Even though I hate the Sudbury area for riding, I will try to do my part.

I Filled out the volunteer portion but recived this message.

"Cannot run the FrontPage Server Extensions on this page: "http://www.driftbusters.ca/volunteer.htm"

While volunteering what will I need? 4 wheeler ect?

One thing that riders being either local or visitors have to remember, is that the OFSC is only mandated at present to abide by the snowmobile laws, with regards to trail signage. The OFSC cannot be the "be all end all" for the riding public. That is where your local clubs come into play.

In our case, we are trying to educate all of our local riders and visitors to pay attention to the website with regards to trail information. Routes/rides are usually planned somewhat ahead of time. Looking at the trail or trails that one wants to ride is read from the website. If there is information posted on mileages, food, gas, etc. it only takes a moment to update a map manually or to make a small note and put in your pocket. In the event that one has a printer, cut and paste or print the trail report. But, that all depends on the efficiency of the local clubs and their availability of a club trail report.

The OFSC is trying to improve their trail reporting but it isn't always as current as a well updated club website.