Saskatchewonians only please. Just curious on what type of Sask sledders are here on HCS. I am a B. Quoting Deep Freeze's post from the trail permit topic:

"In Saskatchewan there are generally four distinct groups of snowmobilers (yes I know some people straddle some groups but that is why I say “generally”).

1) HONEST GROUP A: pays for plates, insurance and trail permits. This group rides groomed trails and are pissed off at other groomed trail riders who are not paying. They have gotten the government to collect money for their trails from all plated riders.

2) HONEST GROUP B: pays for plates and insurance. This group rides ungroomed trails, lakes, and mountains and is pissed off at Group A because they have now been dragged into, and are the financial focus of, a problem they didn’t create and were not involved in (by virtue of their riding area, style etc…).

3) DISHONEST GROUP C: doesn’t pay for anything (or everything they should) and rides wherever they feel like. They laugh at Group A for paying for trails and not enforcing the rules, they laugh at Group B because Group A’s new rules target this honest and innocent group who now pay for trails as well, and they will continue to laugh as long as they get away with it which will be forever as long as there is no enforcement.

4) HONEST GROUP D: doesn’t pay for anything (except maybe insurance) because they are exempt under the snowmobile act (trappers, commercial fishers, and riders who only ride on private land). This group is unaffected by any of this."

Good Idea,

I am in Group B.

I am between a & b. I pay for plates, insurance, and trail permits, yet I very rairly ride groomed trails. But I totally agree with the new system. EVERYONE should have to pay for trail permits!!! I don't care where you ride.

Do people without cars not pay taxes that go towards our roads???

You want to be in the sport...you have to pay a little here and there to make it better for everyone.

Plus if you can't afford $50-$90 for trail permits, you can't afford gas for your sled anyway!!!!

I dont ever buy a trail permit because i dont ride on them. Usually license sleds but not mine last year. Always ride ditches and fields so.

I'm the group A guy...Volunteer to mark trails for 2 clubs..Kelvington and Archerwill..A total of approx 350 miles for the 2.. Was tired of the Group C guys screwing us over..Sorry "B" guys...nothing is perfect...Just trying to maintain a trail system that was started, cuz I'm tired of seeing things in Sask go down hill, and the small towns, getting smaller...If it doesn't Snow soon, none of this matters anyway.......

I voted "None of the above". I buy my plates and insurance and a trail pass. I ride off trail as much as I ride on trail. I very much appreciate the work of the grooming clubs and am bothered by the people who do not buy trail permits and ride the trail system. I guess I might be a Type AB. I am generally supportive of the new system, but I do have some reservations and it will take some time to see how it actually does work. Will the funds be properly distributed and will it result in better and more trail systems? I completely respect the views presented by the guys who oppose the new system, they were presented very well and I have no arguement with those positons. I think we all understand, and agree, that the biggest problem and issue is enforcement and that will not change under the new system. The only upside is that lack of enforcement may be less of a penalty to the trail system and grooming clubs than it was before.

I don’t buy the “through taxes we pay for a lot of things we don’t use” argument for a minute. Taxes are paid by the majority of people and each person receives some sort of benefit from paying taxes. This is not a tax, it is a private fee paid by a MINORITY of honest sledders, while NOTHING is done to collect from the MAJORITY of sledders who created the problem to begin with. Because NOTHING is done this majority will grow and the system will not be self-supporting, and it will end up that without higher fees for the honest MINORITY the system will fail. Even the government balks at calling this a tax because other political parties would love to "make hay" out of an additional "snowmobile or recreation tax" on top of already overtaxed citizens. I paid tax to support snowmobiling when I paid PST on the sled, gear, etc... where did that money go? Oh yeah, the same general revenue fund that this "fee" cough...(tax) goes.

Also, we honest minority non-groomed trail riders ALREADY pay for the trails we do ride (chainsaws, gas, etc…). To put more money (any amount) into groomed trails, while groomed trail riders are not requested to put anything into ours, and while groomed trail riders target us and not the dishonest riders who outnumber both groups and cause their problems, is only bound to create hard feelings. You see, by not targeting the dishonest majority you just create a playoff between the honest minority and in the end nobody wins except the dishonest majority who get their way in every scenario without ever lifting a finger.

And yes I voted B.

B For me . There arnt any trails near me.But i do plan on trailering to some this year!

TOTALLy a B....

I understand what the B group is saying, but just by looking @ the majority of people voting "B", they have already made the right choice, cause if you continue to plate your sled you are now giving extra towards the trail system, which previously you did not!!!!

Now if only they would use the money wisely.LOL

^ :lol2:
dewalt, this poll is showing what type of sask sledders are on HCS, not what the majority is in the province (SSA has already told us it is C).

I would expect most Sask sledders on HCS to be honest and I would not expect very many people on here to admit to being a C as the prevailing attitude on this site would be to hang them from the nearest sled lift.

What the preliminary results are showing me is that the press release from SGI/SSA that said the majority (94%) of sledders support this move is exactly what I stated, a crock of horse pucky, and that the survey the statement was based on is being proven to be the biased, manipulated, invalid pile of garbage that it is. Another example of a small organized special interest lobby group overriding the unorganized majority and using phony stats to support their position.

As I have said b4, talk to me in 3 years when most of us B's have become C's and your fees are 5X what they are now for half the trails. The current postion of "charge the PO'd innocents and enforce nothing on the guilty because I don't care where the money comes from to fund my (relatively) small special interest trail group, as long as it comes." is unsustainable in the long term.

The money will (and if you can believe the gov't reps I have talked to, this has already started) stop coming! .

Hate to break it to ya bud, but the gov't lies and steals from us everyday. That is what they do. If anyone believes their stats and figures that is their problem.

The thing is, if people haden't screwed the system we wouldn't be in this predicament. The fact is though that people who have licsensed their sled in the past aren't going to stop because of $30 or $40. That is their way of thinking, and if it works it works, it wasn't working before anyway so nothing is lost.

I really don't care, I have always paid all dues, plates, insurance and trail passes but I rarely ride the trails so if they are gone, I will still ride, it will just be a damb shame for those who are trail riders, which is the biggest segment in our sport. :div20:

dewalt

Sad to say the stats and figures came from fellow snowmobilers and not the government so it is fellow snowmobilers who are lying for there own ends.

Also sad to say that according to this and any other survey, groomed trail riders are not the biggest segment of our sport in SK, rough trail riders are, this money does not go to the biggest segment in SK.

I live on a farm and play in the fields, Planning on a trip to Duck Mountain and B.C so I have to buy it now. I was/am D.

Well I don't know who gives you your stats, but I guaratee you that more miles are logged by trail riders in Saskatchewan by far then those of us that are field and ditch bangers!!!!

But what we are arguing about doesn't really matter, the sport has been getting screwed by people who don't put anything into it and expect all the benefits. It's really too bad.

The only reason rough trail riders would even be close is cause the groomers aren't getting the funding or the volunteers to groom the trails...therefore they are rough!!!

Miles logged doesn't indicate how many people are riding that style, 20 people can ride all day up north (north of PA is NORTH, not north of Southey) and only go 50 miles vs 10 riders riding all day and going 150 miles on groomed trails. There are far more snowmachines, riders, area, and a longer season in the north, than there are field riders and ditch bangers (also in the off trail group) and groomed trail riders (groomed trails only in less than 1/3 of province)!!! It is about # of people not miles, trail passes aren't sold by the mile.

SSA supplies stats! Aren't they the groomed trail gurus!?!

You are right about who is screwing the groomed trail riders, so why don't groomed trail riders have the balls to go after them instead of innocent uninvolved parties? Guess just like the ones groomed trail riders have a problem with, they themselves would prefer to take the easy way and attack an honest third party instead of facing the real problem, perhaps because the real problem outnumbers everyone else 2:1.

Well I'm not sure how far up north you are but, from PA to Estevan there are groomed trail systems!!!

Anyway, it really doesn't matter who is right or wrong, statistics are for losers.

I can't believe so many people with $5000 to $13000 sleds can't be honest enough to pay for less the $100 worth of fees no matter where they ride???

Like I said it don't matter to me, I'll be riding and paying wether there are trails or not!!!!

I agree, so when the riders who ARE riding groomed trails and who ARE NOT paying are TARGETED and made to pay, then maybe the rest of us honest folk won't have a problem with paying either. Paying isn't the problem, being the ONLY target for a problem we did not create and are not a part of IS!

"If ya' can't beat 'em, join 'em!" Well, it doesn't look like too many people (honest gromed trail riders or otherwise) are interested in beating those that don't pay! That's the real tragedy.

You don't make sense at all!

I think it is a crock. DEWALT because you pay for the trail permit and choose not to ride on the groomed trails is your choice. That makes you a sucker, the rest of us do care. It is not about the $$$ it is the ehtics of it. It is not the same as registering and insuring a car or truck. With car ot truck you are driving on MAINTAINED roadways paid for by tax payers. Where as Snowmobilers don't all have groomed trails that are MAINTAINED. P.A. is north and not north enough for me, and I guarantee you a large number of recreational snowmobilers are PA north and we are all getting screwed. Because the Government and a couple of lobbyist are too lazy to find a proper and fair way of dealing with this issue. Characteristic of the Government, when they have a problem or an issue they f@ck the little guys and the honest tax paying people. When do we say ENOUGH. But with people like DEWALT out there I doubt we will ever have the balls in Saskatchewan and CANADA to stick up for our selves.

For the record, I "due" Reg and Ins my sleds every year.

Oh and what is it you care about??? Your club? Your Sport? Future of the sport for younger riders?

NO!!!!! You care about yourself and that's it!!!!! That doesn't put you in a much better category then the people that don't pay anything!!!!! :div20:

ARE YOU FROM QUEBEC or a member of THE BLOC????

Yes it is!!!!! :div20:

Now here's a potential problem that was told up to me today by a very concerned Emma lake snowmobile club member. This just arose as there is now enough snow down there to get things rolling and this problem has cropped up, I never thought of it but it has the potential of becoming BIG. This is what I was told:

Plated riders who once only rode off trail are now being forced to pay for groomed trails. Some of the off trail riders have decided that because they now have to pay, they are now using the trails. They have cans, big lug tracks, etc.. which never used to bother anybody because they were off trail. Even riding in a normal fashion their machines are chewing up trails and annoying residents near the trails. They don't care because they say that they are being forced to pay and they plan to use, nobody can stop them. Their thought is if trails close, so what, it is no loss to them because they never rode the trails before anyway and they will continue to ride their old off trail areas. They are not intentionaly doing anything untoward, this is the way they have always ridden.

I know that groomed trail enthusiats will brand these guys as a--holes, but I believe the law of unintentional consequences may be rearing its head. These guys have had their money taken against their will, and they plan to use what they paid for. The thought was taking their money against their will would have no consequences because what could they do. Well it appears one rub is if you take someone who has no stake in the system either way, and force them be included in the system, the consequence of them doing on trail what they normally do off trail is of no concern to them. This will be called selfish, but remember: They didn't ask to be included by paying they were forced, and they are paying. Nothing they do is done with malice or against any laws. If something they do is breaking a law (local noise ordanance) who is going to charge them? People who have been intentionally breaking the law for years on the trails by not plating, buying permits, etc... have not been charged so why now complain about the few honest people who have been forced into the system when you haven't even gone after the ovewhelming large number of dishonest people that have been in the system for years? They are not disrespecting the trails any more than non paying users that haven't been targeted and the non paying users are putting NO money into the system to atone for their sins.

Not saying this is right or wrong but it appears some consequences were not considered, even by me.

Now, I get it....

Sir, below the avatar (The yellow diamond shape object to the left with the Bigfoot in the middle) you will see descriptors and under location it states "Northern Sask CANADA". That is in between Manitoba to the east and Alberta to the west. This is to indicate where I am from. If I could I would type this slower for you but it doesn't work that way. I apologize for your ignorance you don't know any better in more ways than one.

:zzz: :zzz: :doh: :doh:

Interesting, I hadden't thought of that either!!!

Thanks for the tip ROCKET BOY!!! So what's Quebec's take on this whole situation dildo?? :div20:

There lots of Trail riders who have Loud Sleds..Nothing new there..Some have paddle tracks to..So what? If they ride to long on a hard packed trails, they will soon smell there own problem... :div20:

GOOD POINT!!! :div20:

:div20:
The big tracks dont hurt the trails... Its when they stop in the middle and nail it to leave their hill of snow and a groove a mile long... but that can be done by anyone not respecting the trail system :div20:

BM

Yup BM, dewalt, and Rev those were my thoughts as well (except that big lug users are more likely to pull off-trail every now and then to cool the sliders, another concern this groomed trail rider had), but she seemed to make a big deal of it and I know that alot is posted about this type of thing (noise and rutted/bumpy trails) in the USA and ON/QC. She also seemed to think that big lugs tear up the base, even at even throttle, more than a 1 incher.

I'm not passing judgement, just passing on her conversation.

I think her biggest concern was more pressure on the groomed trails with only the same amount of money coming in for grooming and/or people who have no vested interest in the groomed trails and therefore show a lack of concern for groomed trails while using them.

I asked her how this was any different than the lack of concern/extra pressure that people who do not pay put on the system. Her only response was that ALL (meaning payers and non payers who don't show concern) of these people should be kicked off her trails. Well that's the heart of it isn't it, there is nobody and no initiative to do the kicking. And if it were done in the past the problem of non paying users wouldn't have gotten this far. How do you kick some one off who has paid and is following the law when you haven't kick off those who haven't paid and aren't following the law?

It seems like there is NO RIGHT answer for this!!!

I register and buy a pass when I ride on the trail system. Over the past few years, we would usually go on one or two trips a year to ride trails. My other riding is day trips, which are off the trail system. So for me, the new system is fine. I like the convenience of paying once with my plates and not having to think about it again. I would bet a lot of others, particularily in urban areas, would share my opinion.

As far as the $40 goes, that is a drop in the bucket. Not even a day's worth of gas. I pay for plenty of things that I may never use. This is nothing new, our social system is full of examples of this.

I figure life is short. Why should I get upset if I might not make it onto a trail this year, the money is going into a sport I enjoy. :div20:


.

The future of the sport is fine. It was here long before groomed trails and will be here long after the trails are gone. Maybe the rules will change, but we will always ride.
Seems to me that the trail riders only care about themselves when they are directing all the negative comments such as above towards the majority of group B people, who I am willing to bet are your grass roots people.

WELL SAID!!!! :div20:

I am a Group B rider for your info, only difference is I have always paid my trail permits even if I hardly ever ride a trail.

It's was my choice before, now they take it automatically when I plate my sled. I guess if the $40 breaks me then I guess I'm in the wrong sport. We get screwed everyday by gov't and local taxes for shit we never ever see again, so if it costs me $40 a year to put some money into the sport I love. So be it!~!!!!

Not saying the way they went about it is right, but the old system sucked so why not try something!!!

Who did the old system suck for?
Certainly not type "B" riders, but type "A" riders, who as of now in this poll are the minority, and this is a very small cross section of the riders in the province. I bet it is even a larger amount. I look at everyone I know who rides a snowmobile, and I would say it is about 1/3 trail riders, the rest are like me and really don't care for trails. Once again, it is not about the money but the principal of the thing.

I have already posted numerous times about it not being about the money (see the SnowGoer Canada thread for the latest).

I would rather that my money for snowmobiling go into trails in northern SK (north of the 54th) which just so happen to not be groomed (as in packed or signed, they are definately groomed as in trimmed, just not 8' wide. It is a forest everywhere up here, not fields with occasional bluffs, so cutting that wide for every trail is not only ecologically unsound, but would be way more $ than down south. There are no ditches to piggy back on either.) so we can not benefit from this program. I would also like ALL of my money to go to trails as it does now, not 1/3 to trails and 2/3 to administration (and heaven knows how much will stay in "general revenue" now that the gov't is involved, by your choice).

Groomed trail supporters need to decide:

What is the problem for you: Money OR Sledders who ride groomed trails and don’t pay OR fairness of the system.

If the amount of money needed to fund groomed trails is the problem then why didn't you pay more out of your own pocket for your fees (like we pay, without complaint, out of our pocket for the thousands of miles of trails up here) instead of digging into mine?

If collecting money from sledders who don't pay but use groomed trails is the problem then why didn't you address it by enforcing their payment or kicking them off your trails?

If fairness is the problem then why don't you get the laws enforced?

It seems like you want your groomed trails; want more people to pay for them but not use them (lady at Emma who is worried about more pressure with same money); don't want to pay more money yourselves for something you use (even though $40, $65, $90, $180 is a "drop in the bucket" compared to gas, oil, belts, and plugs); and you don't want a confrontation with a large dishonest group of users so you picked one with an smaller honest group of non-users. Too bad you refuse to put your hands in the pockets of dishonest people who use trails and don't pay. Instead you try and take out of my pocket money that already goes into trails (just not the ones you ride).

I guess my point is, why the big fight over $40. You can say it's principal or whatever but that's a load of crap.

I don't see you fighting or complaining when you put gas in your car or buy alcohol or smokes, way more then half of that money is TAX!!! Do you believe it goes to things that benifit you?? I THINK NOT!!!

But we-re gonna teach them a lesson over $40. I guess whatever floats your boat!!!

You're right why the big deal over $40...so why don't you all just pay $80 and that'll cover the rest of us that don't use your trails.

I have a choice to buy gas (deisel), alcohol, smokes,etc... and I get a product that I use back, miles on the truck on roads, a headache from alcohol, and a queasy stomach from smokes (although some pipe tobacco smells nic ...tangent).

I have no choice but to buy SK plates to be legal (even though it isn't enforced so lets call it morally legal). And with those plates I am now supposed to pay money to a system I don't use while nobody on that system pays for the one I do use. This is becasue nobody on that system has the coconuts to stand up for their system and charge those people who do use it and don't pay.

Enough of this talking in circles...the system is in place this year as a trial. We'll see how it comes out. If it comes out badly (not enough money for SSA) which is what I have predicted and the gov't reps are now telling me that is actually happening, what is groomed trail riders next move? Are you actually going to take action against non paying users or are you going to pay for the trails yourselves? I have gotten a kick out of this circle talking because nobody answers the real issue of enforcment. Why make laws and rules if you don't have the clankers to enforce them? Wouldn't that have solved the problem before it started? As it stands the SK Snowmobile Act isn't worth the paper it is printed on, it was a gov't excercise to appease groomed trail riders and make them think that action was being taken on their behalf. You got duped, deal with it! I and many like me get a charge out of urbanites (Toronto, Regina whatever) that make all these paper rules that look real good where there is a cop 5 minutes in any direction but forget that north of the 54th there is enforcement maybe every 200 miles. This turns out to be a moot point in this case because even where there is enforcement available they won't help you because they have better things to do than to defend a system that you won't.

On a personnal level I am not worried about any of this because I am legally plated and insured without the fee and will continue to be legally plated and insured without the fee as long the loopholes stay open. I've been sledding for 2 months now and our trails will never close as this is only a regional problem for the south east/south central belt. As greezemonkey points out all the trails will never close and as for bringing new people into the sport...people sled up here without a permit system, people sledded down there before the permit system...I think weather patterns are a bigger worry to this sport. If you truly think that groomed trails are the only salvation to the future of the sport (doubt it), and small town businesses maybe you should get the rules enforced!

Have a Merry Christmas everybody!

It seems like you have lots of bitterness built up toward trail riders!!!!

Oh well, I'm sure that they don't care what you or I think. Just like you don't care what they think. I guess I'll continue to do what I do, and you can continue to fight the system. As long as we're both happy and get to do the sport we both love who cares!!! :div20:

Merry Christmas to everyone as well!!!!

PS. Even if some of our laws are stupid...I'm still happy to be in SASKATCHEWAN!!!

There is very Little Law Enforcement in Rural Sask., and getting less all the time with cut backs..So that is the Big reason nothing got Enforced, or ever will. Maybe...what SGI should have done for this yr was when you buy your plates for the season...they should have had everyone sign a survey if this current system the way of the future...to get a better number on who is, or isnot infavor????? That way everyone who plates could voice there opinion???? Just a thought..In the mean time I guess Group "A" wins for this yr.....

Not bitter at all, and not fighting the system cause I'm not in the system. Just an interested observer and devil's advocate stick poker.

Just interested in a simple answers to a simple questions:
Why not attack the problem directly?
If and when this fails what is the next step, then attack the problem directly?

Inquiring minds want to know!

edit: hey Rev, that was what I suggested to SGI!!! Guess great minds think alike! An honest and open referendum in Canada, we could be a model! :lol2: :banana:

An honest open referendum.... LOL!!!!

Gov't would never let that happen. :div20:

Sure they would, only the choices would be yes and not no.

Anyway Merry Christmas to everyone.

GOOD POINT!!! :div20:

I wonder if this is what greezemonkey is eluding to when he says these are the first steps to attempting to ban snowmobiling in the province EXCEPT on groomed trails? (Good luck!)

I too would like to pass on a tip to our agriculture producers out there. Many of you folks have snowmobiles and they are used for things like checking fences, checking bins, your herds and other uses around the farm. If these checks are done on your private land, under the law you do not have to register your snowmobile at all. Just passing on the truth, THE WHOLE TRUTH.

For dewalt, Rev M&S and the rest. Earlier I brought up concerns of a club member about tracks, cans etc.. and the prevailing agreement was that these have been on SK trails for years and are not an issue, it is overblown.

Why then when I go to the SSA website are there initiatives and articles in the interest and announcement sections that are anti-aftermarket exhaust, off trail riding ("groomed trails or no trail riding") etc. Is this the slippery slope that some are talking about? This is what I meant about the potential to become BIG! Are you on your way to the US system down south?

EXACTLY, It is going to be on it's way, just watch. FWIW, I was approached again by a club to see if they could run trails across some of my land. I always maintained that anyone could ride, just no designated trail. I told them I will allow a designated trail across my land, but I want $500 / mile rent on the property, plus compensation for any damage a snowmobile may do to my property. All I got was alot of stammering. My way of thinking is starting to catch on with land owners. Urban people: Don't like it, I have land I am willing to sell just $50k a quarter. Remember you can leagally ride across my land anytime you want since it is not designated and I don't post.

If they Pay you to go across your land...then they have to pay for all the trails in the whole province that cross farm land!!! That's a good way to Kill the trail system...Way to GO!!!! What the Hell is a trail going to hurt your land?????

Why? It's only a few bucks compared to the price of a new machine, belts, oil, gas, etc. Isn't that what trail riders (group A) people are saying to the group B people? Funny thing is pretty well everyone I know who is a group B person is a land owner. Why should I even think about supporting an organization (SSA) that does not even support me, rather, they force me into paying for a segment of riders that does not even comprise of 1/4 of the snowmobiles out there. Then they are now starting to push their idea of what snowmobiling is on me. This is one guy who is not biting.

The system is already broke and trying to get more money for it..Now you want to drain more money from it? Typical people who think "Its All About Me"!!!! So our club that had 450 miles of trail---It would cost $225,000.00 to pay everyone...