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Hi, help a newb with his 600 xc clutching!

10K views 128 replies 14 participants last post by  Hussler 
#1 ·
I'm as green as they get with snowmobiles.

I'm a dedicated jeep fanatic/idiot and am looking into finally making something go FAST. :grinning:

I've been creepin' on your forum here for a while and understand the basic functions of the clutches, but am lost on deciding what to get for my rig.

I understand the primary spring changes when the primary clutch engages, but why would you want to do that? The thing spins the track off the line as it is.

Also curious about the weights. Why get heavier weights when you can just get a stiffer spring?

I think I understand the helix, its like the pattern for how the secondary climbs the belt? Example: a helix with a low angle would climb slower?

More or less I want to figure out what I should get ON MY OWN (but I wouldn't mind excessive flaming if you just tell me what to get :w00t:)


P.s. Here's the bitch, 01 polaris xc sp EDGE 600, with a 40 tooth driven gear

 
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#51 ·
When I look at your setup compared to the 600s I have setup the driven seems a little aggressive, the 48-36 helix which I assume is a full progressive is going to be very aggresive in the midrange and the purple spring is pretty soft, If I remember right that spring upshifts quickerthan a silver blue poo spring due to being softer torsionally. I know the rating is a 50-75 which is close to a silver blue but it didnt seem to act that way, compare the wire dia Its smaller if its the spring I am thinking of
I would try a helix that does not carry the angle that long, I think you are in the ballpark on the angles it just carries the angle to far. An r8 or r12 would be a step in the right direction. Then I would try a stiffer spring like a silver blue or epi orange but the pruple might work with less helix when it comes to secondary springs they dont always act the way you think they will, trail and error.
 
#56 ·
the purple spring is pretty soft, If I remember right that spring upshifts quickerthan a silver blue poo spring due to being softer torsionally. I know the rating is a 50-75 which is close to a silver blue but it didnt seem to act that way, compare the wire dia Its smaller if its the spring I am thinking of
The purple is without a doubt stiffer than the stock one, I could feel the difference in my hands. It also had more coils and was more difficult to assemble because of the torsional forces

I would try a helix that does not carry the angle that long, I think you are in the ballpark on the angles it just carries the angle to far. An r8 or r12 would be a step in the right direction. Then I would try a stiffer spring like a silver blue or epi orange but the pruple might work with less helix when it comes to secondary springs they dont always act the way you think they will, trail and error.
But the thing is, it was PERFECT before I put the weights in.

Im contemplating dropping a tooth on the upper drive gear, should allow the increased upshifting forces from the drive p-85 to take full advantage? Man weights are a pain :mad:
 
#53 ·
Ditch the POS EPI soft aluminum crap helix.Does the inner part of the hub have 'chatter' marks????Put the stock r-8 back in without any other changes.No ratrod the almond blue isn't going to fix this.If going from hole 1 to 5 made no change I think the helix is cocking and not shifting properly.
 
#55 ·
Well you just installed the shittiest brand of helix ever built.I've had lotsa experience with epi crap and it is just that crap.It may perform better for now but in time you'll notice major performance loss and you will find the helix to be the cause.What primary spring are you running???Try a almond or team green 140-330 or team red 140-320.
Steve
 
#59 ·
Why did you buy a primary spring with LESS finish force than the stock 120-310 spring you have already????????It will give LESS peak rpm!!!!!!The 145 will raise engagement and 300 finish LOWER peak rpm.Why the heck are you trying that spring????If you want to get this thing set up right you have to make changes to give you the desired result.Your going to lose prolly another 100 rpm on top.You should be looking for a primary spring with the same start force and about 20-30lbs more finishing force,like the springs I mentioned.I'll bet you I could get a 600 identical to yours set-up with the stock R-8 to run circles around that epi. 48/36.I guess you can get the idea about how I feel for EPI helixes.I've run Dalton(best built ever),HSP,SPX, Polaris,Formax,and more and EPI are the only ones that gave me trouble.If you don't want to pull the weights out again I would say put it back to stock and enjoy it because if you want to get into clutching you may be taking weights in and out many time in a day.
Steve
 
#64 ·
Higher starting rate will give you about 300 rpm higher engagement and lower finish will give more belt grip which will drag down rpms. If you like the helix and secondary set up, go back to the 58's, take a $20 hit on selling the 60's and ride it. Lot's of guys out there clutching a 600 that will take them.
 
#66 ·
with the primary spring, the starting rate # (I.E 165) the higher the number, the higher the engagement RPM is right? what about the ending rate #? (I.E 310) does the higher/larger the number mean the lower the WOT RPM's or higher WOT RPM's? with a larger/higher ending rate #, will the sled backshift slower or faster than a lower # ending rate #?

I am trying to learn a few things about clutching, I am just a little fuzzy on this.

What setup did you end up sticking with?
 
#69 · (Edited)
Hussler, your very first statement in this thread was, "I'm as green as they get with snowmobiles"
Now, I'm not criticising,and maybe I'm wrong, but it seems like you asked for help, yet you argue with guys that are giving you good tried and true info? Maybe I'm missing something?

Simple fact, the 600ves has been around for years. The basic well known clutching upgrade using all Polaris readily available parts has been 60-62 gram weights, a 150-310 primary spring, Poo R8 50-34 helix and Poo silver/blue 50-75 secondary spring. It's a proven setup time and again, with great gains over the oem setup. Nobody that has been around one will argue that. Can it be bettered? Yes, Marginally and only with trial and error on each individual sled/rider bassis.
 
#74 ·
No I never suggested heavier weights than anyone else.A good 600ves should pull at least 60 grams heck my 98 600 spins 60 with an almond/gold silver blue#2 in,,,,,,,you guessed it an R-8.Ves has nearly 10 more hp so figure it out.I've clutched sleds for all weights of people not just me.What helix did you have in before the POS epi paperweight????Next ??? who ever told you to put a full progressive 48/36 in your 600???
 
#75 ·
More than 2 suggested the R8. Aside from that, that 600 will pull more topend with a 34 finish angle than a 36 or higher finish angle. It will also ease the topend load on the crank shaft in VERY long run
 
#82 ·
So steve, what is your official, unabridged recommendation for 156 pound me on my 600? :D (and anybody else that wants to include theirs!!!)

Primary spring: almond gold?
Secondary : silver blue?
Helix: R-8?
Weights: 60?
I allready stated mine, tune from there. If the weights are too heavy they can be lightened. If you start with 60's and need more weight, you buy another set heavier.
 
#83 ·
Almond blue with 60's and an r-8 with silver/blue #2 belt/sheave clearance set to .010" to .015" alignment spot on with torque stop just touching block.Thats what I would recommend for you.Me I would test and test until I found exactly how much wieght it would pull,may pul 62's IF everything else such as jetting track tension chain tension track alignment ect is all spot on.The set up above as said is tried and true and only marginal gains in certain areas could be gained but its that small margin some of us shoot for.Thats why I have 10-15 sets of weights from 3-4 different companies 10-12 primary springs on hand,8-10 secondary springs and a dozen helixes.
Steve
 
#89 ·
If it'll pull 62's you'll be faster,,,,thats if.May be too much for anything off trail if your motor isn't strong.Quit over analizing everything and just try the set-up I gave you .It should be the cheapest for you.
 
#90 ·
Well a little development,

Took off my secondary to find that I never actually changed it to the fifth hole! It was still in the 3rd! Haha, so I went about changing it to the fifth and lo and behold, my rpm is now at exactley 8k :D

Definitely seems less peppy/less responsive with the 60's in it though, can anybody explain that?
 
#94 ·
Probably won't shift out in #5.What is a48/36"x" Ratrod?????If this is gonna turn into kindergarden clutching I'm outta here and Hussler you and Ratrod can dream up something
Steve
 
#99 ·
The more weight the motor can pull on a upshift and maintain peak rpm, the more power,pull,acceleration you will get.

I think the only think HSR and maybe a few others and I are not in total agreement on is the actual weight you should start with. HSR says 60's, I say 62. I think everyone would agree with me though, that you can ligthen the 62's if they are too heavy, you can't {realistically} heavy up the 60's if you need more.
 
#101 ·
Thanks! Thats what ive been wanting to hear for about 3 pages but I didnt know how to phrase the question lol. I already bought and installed the 60's and id REALLY like to stick with them since I had to pay a premium for them (new polaris brand set)

Do you think they will agree with the R-8 helix all right? Will I be able to compensate with secondary spring torsion to make up for it?
 
#100 ·
Actually I've said it should pull 62's a few times IF its set-up chassis,jetting wise.My 98 xc6 spins 60's no problem.Lighten the weight crap Dave it'd take 5 pages of typing before this kid would grind anything!!!!!He did't even have the ambition to remove the 60's he installed.I'm done answering his questions until he installs what was recommended.
Steve
 
#107 · (Edited)
So if you have lighter weights, the track has less chance of losing traction because lighter weights would let the belt slip more under load? AKA, the belt would slip before the track does? Which then it would make sense that the heavier the weight, the more power that could get to the track, as you stated before.

Hope thats right

EDIT: I looked up the almond/gold spring, 150-290, I bought a red epi (145-300). Why do you suggest a spring with a lower finishing weight then steves recommendation of the almond/blue? (150-310)

See STEVE this is why I'm not bending over and doing everything you say, there are obvious preference differences and im trying to figure out whats best for me. You dont learn by being told what to do, you learn by asking questions :D
 
#108 ·
So if you have lighter weights, the track has less chance of losing traction because lighter weights would let the belt slip more under load? AKA, the belt would slip before the track does? Which then it would make sense that the heavier the weight, the more power that could get to the track, as you stated before.

Hope thats right
Well not really ...as i mentioned if you have addressed the traction issues on the track by installing enough studs so traction shouldn't be an issue given the motors output. Belt slip is more directly related to the way the secondary is set up provided you have not gone too far astray with the primary clutch setup. You have to understand there is no magic one clutch setup that does it all...its much a compromise. Slightly different component combo's can achieve similar result....just don't try to over think it till you get out and do lots of testing a step at a time and note the results.
Consider obtaining aaens clutch tuning handbook...its good reading.
 
#110 ·
OK one more thing that needs to be said that has not been already is how to properly test the sled. from what you are describing you want a fast trail sled, not a drag specific sled and not a ditch banger where you dont care about drag racing either, from what I am getting you want a balance between the two. When you make a change two things will be considered, how responsive it is and how quick it is in a drag race. the best way I have found to test throttle response is to ride the sled at a given speed and pick a spot on the trail or pick a bump and hit the throttle right before the spot you picked out and se how quickly the sled starts to accelerate, like you are timing your throttle burps to jump over mougals, this makes it a little easier to notice small differences in a setup. when you are testing how quick it is you NEED to test against a different sled or a timer. when clutching my 02 600 xc NVR8NUF got me away from going by the rpms and just compare by results, which sound pretty basic but had I been clutching for 7900-8000 I would have lost a solid couple sled lenths because I never would have found out that my sled likes 8050-8150 (on a digitron) even on a cold pipe right off the line which I never would have thought
 
#111 ·
when you are testing how quick it is you NEED to test against a different sled or a timer.
Just beat my friends 08 skidoo rotax 600 tonight :thumbsup:, so we are heading in the right direction

but had I been clutching for 7900-8000 I would have lost a solid couple sled lenths because I never would have found out that my sled likes 8050-8150 (on a digitron)
My sleds still running a little low (7950 on the tach) gonna change some stuff around to get her back up there.

She is definitely more responsive on the trail, but only over 30mph
 
#112 ·
Most 600 VES's run good at around 7950.
My 05 600 is 1 mph faster in the 1000', when its running at 7900...compared to 8000rpm's(61 gram weights compared to 60's).
Going from 8200 to 8000rpm's(58's to 60's), it gained 2.5-3mph in the 1000'.
My 02 600 also gained 3mph in the 1000 and 1320'...when i went from 58's to 60's.
 
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