1996 XCR 600 SP with 07 IQ440R engine - HCS Snowmobile Forums

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View Poll Results: Does it sound like a dead end or fun project with a -07 IQ440 engine in a -96 xcr600?
Dead end stupid project !!! 6 85.71%
Sounds fun and keep it up. 1 14.29%
Voters: 7. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 04-05-2012, 04:51 PM   #1 (permalink)
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Default 1996 XCR 600 SP with 07 IQ440R engine

I have no idea where to put this post.

But anywas.
My current setup is:

-Upper gear 19T
-Lower gear is 40 or 41T
-extended to 345 length with standard drive shaft w/ 4 drive wheels or what they are called :P
-Drive clutch has almond spring with S-49 weight if I remember right.
-Driven clutch (stock xcr600) has some old straight helix, unmodified with constant angle, guessing it came from a xlt 600 or something 52 degrees angle?, with black/red spring at in the hardest/tightest hole.
-original carbs with 290 main jets (those in center, guessing main jets) I think the needles are in middle position.
-airbox has nothing inside.
-I also have the ignition box with A-G (think it's at G)
-Running premixed 95 octane pump fuel. (25 litres and 0,9 litres of oil. appr. 3,5-4%)

Here it is:
-When at sea level it is REALLY fast up to around 100km/h appr. 62 miles/h
one piston has a black top the other seems new with light brownish color.

-When running hills it is 50/50 if I has rpm/power to get up, sometimes I jump the tops, sometimes I have to turn it around the hard way from half-way up

-at higher altitudes I rarely gets more then 8000rpm, most of the time I have to run it straight a quarter mile before it has the power back, from here I need to be REALLY careful not dropping speed/throttle.

The following has been tried:
-I have tried swapping driven clutch spring to silver/blue, low and high tension hole (it got better at low rpm but couldn't get over 6000rpm)
-tried blue spring in drive clutch, lowered rpm from 4500rpm to 4000rpm drive clutch engagement.
-turned the air screw several times between 1 turn out to 2,5 turns out. (found 1,5 turns worked best, 1 pull when cold and it's alive)
-idle screw is 4 whole turns out. (idles at 1100-1400rpm depending on outside temp)
-checked throttle cables and checked the slides opening so the are the same when throttle is released.

Now I'm really desperate, it seems I cannot get this crap working.
When it works it's really fun, but it suddenly turns on me like the bank.

My ideas:
-getting carbs synced at a dealer with know-how and the right tools.
-change main jets to bigger 300 or 310 and drop needles a notch or two ?
-swap the driven clutch to a newer like the one in 2001 800LE (tried one and it was different and better than the one I have now, but still had the hill climbing problems)
-heavier weights in drive clutch?

I'm really out of other ideas.....but open to suggestions.

P.S. sorry for some bad english :p

Last edited by hawkn; 04-05-2012 at 05:06 PM.
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Old 04-06-2012, 03:38 PM   #2 (permalink)
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Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 6,204
Current Sled(s): 2006 600 RMK, 2000 XCR 800
Previous Sled(s): 1996 440 XCRSP
Location: Lloydminster, AB Canada
Favorite Riding Area: Northern Saskatchewan
12-13 Mileage: not enough
11-12 Mileage: not enough
10-11 Mileage: not enough
Age: 40
Riding Since: 1994
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First you will need to gear lower as that sled is a lot of weight for the 440 to pull. Gear 19/43. Then look up what stock clutching was for that engine and simply run that. Lastly, find a jetting chart for that engine, and follow it. If you are running open filters, you will need to jet leaner than factory specs.
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Old 04-06-2012, 04:13 PM   #3 (permalink)
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Thanks
I'll check if I have 43T laying around and replace the 41T I have in it now, will also swap the weights in primary clutch from 49 to 52(I have those but not 51 weights) it came with 10-62 weights when I bought the engine wich gave me very low rpm.
Will also swap the spring in my secondary clutch. (the biggest issue I have with the old crap is the sec. clutch, old style)

The carbs I'll let pros with the right tools do this work, I have 4 gauges with hoses and niples and all, but not the knowhow to use them :p
I saw that one spark plug was good and the other was getting a bit lean mix when at around 400m above sealevel, wich makes me think it's a sync issue with carbs and clutch setup.
I'll update when I figure this out

And another thing I'm curious about:
The different weights I have, has different angles, is this important ?
Have 10-62 and 10-54 lying around wich has another angle than the ones mounted.

Ohh. and another thing..
When running premixed 95 octane with 27/1 mixture, what position should I choose on the timing box ? (A to G)

And again, thanks for the reply

Last edited by hawkn; 04-06-2012 at 04:20 PM.
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Old 04-06-2012, 06:33 PM   #4 (permalink)
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IMO, heavier weights will probably make it worse.

Main problem is 440 race engines are kinda finicky, goes good when everythings right, a turd when not. Pod filters are also harder to jet for , sucking hot underhood air.
You may also need to run one side a little richer (staggered jetting)

Weigth profile is important, and changing them will affect belt clearance in primary.

Helix is probably a 34 or 36 degree. I find it kinda strange that it only would do 6000rpm with the stiffer silver/blue spring
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'11 Assault Switchback
05 Classic Touring 600 - in need of a track and some skid parts
02 XC800 - slightly stock, 136" - 15000 miles, still on original crank (knock on wood) - ready for retirement
00 XCR800 - Pro-X rear skid w/lowered front arm, otherwise stock. My trail rocket
99 XC700SP - 12000 miles - needs work
97 XLT SKS 2up got it for free - 13000 miles and still runs good
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Old 04-06-2012, 08:08 PM   #5 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ivar View Post
IMO, heavier weights will probably make it worse.

Main problem is 440 race engines are kinda finicky, goes good when everythings right, a turd when not. Pod filters are also harder to jet for , sucking hot underhood air.
You may also need to run one side a little richer (staggered jetting)

Weigth profile is important, and changing them will affect belt clearance in primary.

Helix is probably a 34 or 36 degree. I find it kinda strange that it only would do 6000rpm with the stiffer silver/blue spring
rgr that, will stick to the s49 weights then
Ok, I've read alot today that several people is saying:
-Put ignition box to G and forget it exist. Check!
-use 49 gram weights like s49's. Check!
-light blue drive clutch spring. Not sure, but it's not dark blue :P
-cc distance between clutches is set so xxxxxxx75 belt fits perfectly. (goes for XCR600/800)
-variator side syl is richer than flywheel side due to more heat on that cyl.(yes that has been confirmed by checking the spark plugs)

Next to be done:
-When I get myself and the sled home, I'm going to try the silver/blue spring in sec. clutch again, last time I tried it was with blue primary spring.
-Clean both clutches really good, primary seems to be a little stuck until 4700rpm and then coming almost 1 inch like in a fraction of a second.
-Will check what high/low gears I actually have mounted, think I have 19/41, but could be 18/41 - if not will change to 18/41, 19/42-43 or 18/42-43 (well, this will not be done until everything else has been checked and fixed)
-Hmmm... will also get some exhaust paste and add it to the system due to exhaust in wrong places
-And...hmmm...will also see if I can borrow/get free of charge a sec clutch/helix from my neighbour wich has several old sleds lying around whole or in parts , BUT increased or decreased angle ? I also have the original XCR600 helix, will try this as well.
-Yes, I've reserved a backpack with all tools needed to swap all parts in both clutches in 10 minutes, but I forgot it at home this holiday
-will also try softer springs in primary clutch because with the almond spring it revs to 4500-5000 rpm and then get a kenguru launch, then drop to 4000-4500rpm.


And just to annoy you people more, yes, I'm good at building/rebuilding/customizing more or less everything, just not sleds

Last edited by hawkn; 04-06-2012 at 08:13 PM.
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Old 04-07-2012, 07:10 AM   #6 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hawkn View Post
-variator side
....
And just to annoy you people more, yes, I'm good at building/rebuilding/customizing more or less everything, just not sleds
Variator? thats what we call it over here in Norway/Sweden.

And yeah, We've noticed that you're not new to wrenches, just sleds

And no, we're not annoyed - just trying to point out that you have made the learning curve a whole lot steeper than needs to be by starting out on such a frankensled

Quote:
-Clean both clutches really good, primary seems to be a little stuck until 4700rpm and then coming almost 1 inch like in a fraction of a second.
probably the movable sheave bushing thats sticking, can be from a torn bushing, rust on the center post or expanded center post. Clutch need disassembly to fix those

This is also cause of the "kenguru jump"

In the secondary, more angle will make it upshift more = load the motor harder. In this Polaris button secondary, its common to use helixes with a higher starting angle if working with a torquey motor, this to match the shift to the torque curve. Steeper helix also needs a stiffer secondary spring to maintain belt grip and provide backshift.

See if you can find a copy of Olav Aaen's Clutch tuning handbook, it explains all you need to now on clutches.
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'11 Assault Switchback
05 Classic Touring 600 - in need of a track and some skid parts
02 XC800 - slightly stock, 136" - 15000 miles, still on original crank (knock on wood) - ready for retirement
00 XCR800 - Pro-X rear skid w/lowered front arm, otherwise stock. My trail rocket
99 XC700SP - 12000 miles - needs work
97 XLT SKS 2up got it for free - 13000 miles and still runs good
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Old 04-07-2012, 08:30 AM   #7 (permalink)
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Hehe, like the name Frankensled

And yes, I might have taken my mouth full, when I said it would be easy getting the engine working properly in the old sled

Going home today from my vacation.
Will try the other pri./sec. springs I have at home and see how it helps

Will also see if I can get another helix, might even try the xcr600 helix I have.

If I put a harder spring in the secondary clutch, it will help with a steeper helix up to a point where the engine is short of power ?

Did not however find the book you mentioned.
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Old 04-07-2012, 09:15 AM   #8 (permalink)
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it can be hard to find at times , printed in small batches. But usually available on amazon.com http://www.amazon.com/Olav-Aaens-clutch-tuning-handbook/dp/B0006R954Y/ref=sr_1_sc_3?ie=UTF8&qid=1333800639&sr=8-3-spell
Yeah a stiffer spring will help somewhat, but secondary and primary has to be in some kind of balance to work properly.
In short, Primary is rpm sensing, tries to upshift as rpms rises. Secondary is torque sensing. If torque from motor is more than load from track, it allows to upshift. If load from track is bigger, it tries to backshift. Very simple - and complex at the same time

Where are you located BTW?
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'11 Assault Switchback
05 Classic Touring 600 - in need of a track and some skid parts
02 XC800 - slightly stock, 136" - 15000 miles, still on original crank (knock on wood) - ready for retirement
00 XCR800 - Pro-X rear skid w/lowered front arm, otherwise stock. My trail rocket
99 XC700SP - 12000 miles - needs work
97 XLT SKS 2up got it for free - 13000 miles and still runs good
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Old 04-07-2012, 09:33 AM   #9 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ivar View Post
Where are you located BTW?
I'm located just outside Tromsų appr. 30 minutes.
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Old 04-07-2012, 09:40 AM   #10 (permalink)
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member on Scooterforum ?
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'11 Assault Switchback
05 Classic Touring 600 - in need of a track and some skid parts
02 XC800 - slightly stock, 136" - 15000 miles, still on original crank (knock on wood) - ready for retirement
00 XCR800 - Pro-X rear skid w/lowered front arm, otherwise stock. My trail rocket
99 XC700SP - 12000 miles - needs work
97 XLT SKS 2up got it for free - 13000 miles and still runs good
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